Russian Tube Preamp, No Return, Here I go again

Agreed Elliott. That's a good desciption.

roxy54.

Yes, you said it first, I only added "if he lived in a cave".

elliott,
I think that you stole that from me. I've been saying that he looks like Robert Plant for a while now.

When I ship to USA from St.Petersburg (Russia) it’s 10-14 days, you had a bad luck with your Russian seller. 

Luxman will be here Friday. USA 3 days, Russia nearly 3 months.

surfmuz

your post with this video is the bottom of page 1, so funny, as I often think it is the last post and click the video of Robert Plant the Russian Cave Dweller

https://youtube.com/watch?v=f5tS2ikuuro&feature=share

yes, it maintains my faith in mankind, which is too often hard to do.

seller just agreed, I just paid for the Luxman, whew, the torture of research, selection, optional ideas is over!

As it happens, my McIntosh preamp is with Audio Classics, so I will be able to use this 10 wpc with my main system to get Phono back while waiting. It will be fun to see how 10 wpc does with those very efficient horns. Still gotta move those 15" woofers, I’ll take it slow.

Then move the Luxman to office system as intended. For fun I will try 10 wpc to Wharfedale’s (only 87 sensitivity) without self-powered sub, but then go first to pre-out to sub, then back to amp main-in with no need for low bass, should help both the amp and the speakers do a cleaner job.

This is the lowest power amp I have ever owned/tried.

Even though your purchase did not work out, it is indeed good to know that he is an honest, honorable merchant. 

Oh yeah, I made an offer last evening for a 2 month old Luxman SQ-N150. Current Model, Integrated, MM/MC, 10 wpc, remote volume, small, fits on bookcase easily.

http://www.luxman.com/product/detail.php?id=33

Far more than I was thinking, I justified it this way:  I'm pre-spending the money I'm gonna get when I sell around 3,500 LP's.

Not vintage, no wood, but will be cool looking between my Grey Mitsubishi Vertical TT (they look like metal, but are painted wood) and Black Teac R2R. 

Damn thing has internal bias like my Cayin. The one I'm after has original tubes in original position which luxmanamerica advised me to verify. USA voltage.

I asked Ryan at Audio Classics about them, he said this:

"As far as the SQ150, that is a great unit.  The Luxman has been very popular in the past year.  Very appealing to the McIntosh enthusiasts it seems.  Sweet, never bright, and very very low noise.  It would match very well with the Wharfdales".

Seller was totally honorable,

prepaid $100. return shipping, I dropped off at USPS, sent him a copy of the receipt and Customs Form, he instantly refunded original purchase: unit, shipping, tax. Not waiting months to get the unit before refund.

A disaster, yet I don't regret ordering it. My decision to trust them proved true. They trust me as well, that's rewarding in itself.

lewm

of course not physical appearance, function: he says "flawless working quality" 

that's a ridiculous thing to say for a used item, but it gives a buyer a way out if another disaster happens, like I just went thru with a NEW flawless item.

I tried my very best before rejecting it, more than most others would have, or could have done. It will cost Sergey $99.70 to ship it back. I think he wants to find out what went wrong for the future.

The seller already told you in explicit terms that the unit he is selling is not “flawless”. So you shouldn’t expect or demand flawless.

robertrs

Enthusiasm Curbed: I don’t know, I feel more sorry for Sergey than myself. He packed it well, I ended up thinking the phono board was somehow damaged during shipping.

I am definitely going to avoid tube types not readily available. The listing said substitutes for Russian 6N4P was possible: "It is made according to a two-stage scheme on vintage 6N4P low-noise tubes (you can also use modern analogues 6072WA or 12AY7)"

but sergey wrote: No, DO NOT substitute.

I had a JVC Large Plinth with TT81 from Canada arrive, plinth, long tonearm and dust cover smashed, just irresponsible packing by seller. Took some time and effort but I got my money back. Found another one from Vlad, a Russian, also in Canada, he assured me about packing, took a chance, it’s my wonderful 3 arm TT now.

Much of what I/we want is located in foreign lands, and I will go thru whatever to get what I want. As my client said "3 months is but a speck of time". Japan has been trouble free for me.

LX33 seller takes returns, and says this:

"This unit is in very good condition overall, and shows some light natural signs of aging (please see photos), including some minor scratches. The bass knob is not the original part. The amp has been thoroughly tested and checked by our professional in-house technician, confirming its flawless working quality. Luxman amps are known for their robust construction and use of the highest quality parts, so it’s likely this unit will see many more years of use."

Seller, past 12 months: 413 positive, 10 neutral/negative feedback (2%), a slight risk.

https://www.ebay.com/fdbk/feedback_profile/unisound?filter=period:TWELVE_MONTHS,overall_rating:NEGAT...

eBay, PayPal, Credit Card all protect you, so if not 'flawless' I would simply deal with it.

The LX33 was made in early 1980's so it is a candidate for some caps I believe. You might want a tech to look it over before you use it.
Secondly you are making another offshore purchase, I would have thought your enthusiasm would be some what curbed.  

chakster,

thanks, he also said USPS. good tip about declared value.

Ship with USPS Priority Mail and he will get it in 30 days (or faster). Calculate exact shipping cost at your post office and ask him to cover it (you can send postal receipt).

If you want to pay more you can ship with USPS Express (and he will get it in Russia from EMS (courier delivery), it can be delivered in 2 weeks or 1 month.


If you will declare more than $200 he will pay import tax, so it’s better to declare no more than $200 in your custom declaration (no import tax for him). 

chakster, anyone?

Seller accepted my full refund request, but say's unable to send me a pre-paid return label.

Who knows the Easiest, Safest, Least Costly way to ship a package from USA to Russia?

I have his shipping box, will weigh and measure it, then I'll tell the seller the cost, they can send me that amount via PayPal.

Thanks but I'm done trying. I now think the phono board got damaged in shipment somehow, what a shame. 

See my newest enthusiasm in this new thread

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/luxman-lx33-integrated-tube-amp-yeah-nay

about this LX33.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/154051395889?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=533...

Here is a useful website: https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6n4p.html
From that page, you can also look up the 12AY7 and 6072.  To my eyes, the latter two should be cross-compatible with the 6N4P. (Be careful if you do your own research, because apparently there is also a Chinese 6N4P, and it is not the same as this Russian 6N4P.)  The caveat is the filament voltage.  For the 6072/12AY7, they can be run on either 6V or 12V filament supplies.  I am not sure from the information on the given website that the same is true of the 6N4P, which may require 6V.  Still, I don't see why he says you cannot use the 6072/12AY7.  The pin connections to plates, grids, and cathodes are identical to those of the 6N4P, and the electrical parameters are close enough. Ask the seller.

Somewhere much earlier in this thread, I got the impression that your preamp uses the 6N23, which is replaceable by the 6922. I don’t know about the 6N4P, without doing more research on it. Am I losing my mind, or did you once mention the 6N23? Yes, 6072 and 12AY7 are essentially different names for the exact same tube. I will look to see whether there is any evidence that the 6072 can replace the 6N4P.

I tried again: changed power cord; changed the 12ax7; found/tightened another partially loose screw on the phono card; moved to my office system; existing TT and direct to existing amp.

Worse, it now makes thumps during it's 'soft start' period, then the same noises. I'm done.

Sergey's response, he says NO to using substitute for 6N4P

"

Dear Elliott!

 

Suppose nothing was shaken during transportation and the preamplifier is in good working order.

Why there may be noise:

- bad connecting cable. This happens. I have a couple of factory cables that are noisy and made by myself - no noise.

- incompatibility of components, low input impedance of the power amplifier. A similar case was with one of the AT-11s sold in Russia. After connecting to another power amplifier - thanks for the sound.

- it is possible that the power supply network in your house is phoning. You have an abundance of technology there, so it is quite possible.

 

About tubes. They are very unlikely to cause noise, provided they are properly installed in their nests.

12AY7 and 6072 - CANNOT be installed instead of 6N4P.

 

6922, E88CC 6DJ8 - can be installed instead of 6N23P.

 

But it can also be assumed that some kind of contact has departed during transportation. If the noise is low frequency, maybe something has fallen off (or on the verge of it) in the power circuits.

 

What a shame I can't look at the preamplifier. As a designer, I am very worried about my work. How so - 4 pieces sent to different countries sound perfect, but with yours - such a disaster ...

Best regards,

Sergey"

I paid $533. total delivered including tax

seller offered me: $400. keep the unit. Noisy unit, mine $133.

IF I knew the noise was JUST tubes, then it’s a good deal, I buy substitute tubes, get lucky.

I sent the seller 3 videos: noise increases at 3 volume settings: low/med/high. both channels. noise with TT connected; Noise with nothing connected.

.........................

I asked about tube substitutes

" New message to: raketoffI

hooked it up again, phono l/r/g to unit. 3 other inputs with rca plugs. unit to amp (no open inputs). Identical hiss-prevalent noise, increases with volume, both channels.

How much do you suspect the problem is noisy tube(s)?

to be clear about substitute tubes:

1. unit has two Russian 64np. Can 12ay7 be used without modification? Can 6072 also be used without modification?

2. unit has one 6n23p. Can 6922 be used without modification? E88cc used without modification? 6dj8 used without modification?

3. unit has one 12ax7 which is easy to get here."
..........................................

Why bother trying? I can hang tough, get full $533, and probably keep the unit even then.

I looked all over, there is nothing that fits on top of my bookcase that I like, especially low price. I don't need this, never did: I just thought it was an easy way to get tubes in the office, it's compact size, it's wood sides. I still like the idea.

lewm,

thanks for trying to help.

yes, we did discuss substitute 6922 for 6n23p. The seller in a message about this problem said the 6n4p should not be substituted. (even though the item description on eBay mentions using 12ay7) (12ay7 can be swapped for 6072).

At this point, I am unwilling to buy and try new tubes, substitute or original.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/6922-tube-review-17-top-6922-6n23p-e88cc-cca-7308-e188cc-tubes.76107...
6N23 can be replaced by 6922 or any of its congeners, and they are all over the place.  I am not at all sure that tubes are the problem, but it is not the case that the 6N23 cannot be replaced outside Russia.

Are you referring to 6N23 types?  Didn't we agree that the ubiquitous 6922 and its many congeners are substitutes for the 6N23, as per this website as well:https://www.head-fi.org/threads/6922-tube-review-17-top-6922-6n23p-e88cc-cca-7308-e188cc-tubes.761078
I don't think it is necessarily a tube problem, but if it were, then substitutes for the 6N23 are readily available everywhere.

lewm,

l feel bad for the seller also, I have to believe it was ok when he shipped it. However, you will see below, seller is not blameless. Here's the text of my claim to eBay:

"Reason for return: Doesn't work or defectiveComments:

Item ordered 2-12-21; arrived safely, no package damage 4-23-21

No power cord for USA provided, I purchased correct power cord.

No instructions for tube locations. I waited until seller provided photo (attached), then installed the 4 tubes (types were marked by masking tape).

Connected 4-24-21 DEFECT: Item makes Hum/Hiss NOISE. Noise increases with Volume, both channels, even when no equipment connected, just the unit connected to my amplifier (my amp has no noise, nor does any of my equipment, you hear just the music).

Informed seller of defect, many messages, attempts, all failed to eliminate the noise. Looked inside, found loose ground wire (see photo). Connected wire as per seller s instructions: noise actually increased slightly.

I made 3 videos of noise: low/mid/high volume, sent to seller. I made a recap of messages, 4-25-21 to last night 4-29-21, a WORD DOC I can provide.

Unit sold as NEW. Actually 7 months old, see date on loose wore photo. Seller messaged: preamp used in his home, (see photo with his Cat laying on top).

I request full refund including shipping cost: $533.13

IF the seller wants the item returned, I have his original undamaged shipping box and can pack it as received. Seller would need to prepay for return shipping.

NOTE: I should receive refund NOW. It takes over two months to send usa to russia. I need the refund NOW to buy a preamp to listen to my music!

regards, Elliott"
.........................................

that's a recap of a whole lotta messages. I, and they suspect it is one of the Russian tubes (that have no substitute). IF they had offered spares, (or simply included spares, they are very cheap over there), then I could test/prove that. I'm not waiting months to find out, so I made my claim.

the 3 Russian tubes did not look new, no boxes, they had masking tape with numbers on them. The 12ax7 EH is new, and I of course tested it, and tried one of my own just to be sure.

chackster,

Thanks for your advice as always.

I made my claim through eBay (eBay sold paypal I was told).

Payment was FROM my Chase credit card. I called Chase. They were already aware of the dispute thru eBay, and assure me if seller does not refund, they will credit the charge back to me.

With the chassis open to view, pick the unit up and give it a good shake. Do you see any parts moving around?  Turn it upside down; does anything hang down or fall out on the floor? I am sure the actual problem is minor and due to something having come loose or a solder joint having weakened during shipment.  If he's honest, I feel bad for the seller.

You don't have to explain anything to paypal if for whatever reason you're not happy with purchase. This is why there is a buyer's protection program. I don't think seller will argue as they can block his account.

The problem is not a nationality of the seller or his country, the problem is equipment. 

You could buy something from reputable designer or brand. 

I just started a claim via eBay, seller has until 5-6-21. Then eBay gets involved. I will call my credit card company to see how they can help if needed.

I have documented things VERY well, photos, recap of all messages, videos of noise at low/mid/high volumes. I have original undamaged shipping box.
...............................

How did I make this mistake?????

Initially all I wanted was a small tube MM phono eq for my office system.

Saw this. I liked its size to fit on top of or in my bookcase. More inputs: I could also run the R2R tape thru it. Wood ends (I would have replaced with my own thicker wood).

this caught my eye: ... "analogue of the famous M-7 preamplifier from Mr. Hiroyashi Kondo". I checked HK out, impressive ...

Photo of innards: Admit it, a LOT of expensive equipment looks similar inside, nice transformer, alps vol pot, ... yes this is a kit look. Tubes, not a hybrid. Soft start, remote volume ...

Hmm, tubes: I could drag my 1958 Fisher 80z mono blocks out (still can of course).

https://www.google.com/search?q=fisher+80z+amplifier&rlz=1C1SQJL_enUS881US881&sxsrf=ALeKk029...

Past luck: JVC big plinth and TT81 from Russian in Canada. Long Russian Tonearm from NewArtVinyl

http://newartvinyl.ru/board/detali_proigryvatelja/tonarm_black_bird12_5_carbon/7-1-0-41

and, I think I discovered, the RISK was part of it.

You win some, you lose some (hopefully not too many).

Yeah, I blew it this time.

Open paypal claim, send it back, get full refund from paypal (including return shipping) and NEVER buy CHINESE AMPS assembled in Russia! 

I returned from my trip, took videos showing hookup and recorded noise. Just sent to seller. Tomorrow is going to be the end of seller's hope that I am doing something wrong.

Noise even with nothing connected, just preamp to amp. Both channels, all input selections, 3 videos recorded noise increasing as preamp volume is raised.

Tube placement is quadruple checked, they sent me a photo with the USA and Russian tube designations clearly shown.

All is not lost. Broken can always be fixed.

That's a shame, after all of the waiting.

Have you double-checked to be sure you got it right?  If so, then I would take the problem to the seller and ask him to reaffirm his instructions to you regarding tube placement.  After that doesn't lead you to a solution,  you need a good tech. 

yes, tubes are in the correct sockets. I got photo with locations indicated from seller.

Are you absolutely certain that you have the right tube in the right socket? Because if you have misplaced the tubes in their sockets, all bets are off, and any symptoms could be explained by that, particularly the ones you mentioned. And no, the power cord is not causing that much in the way of problems. Even if you think you installed each tube correctly, I would open the chassis and take another look at where you placed each tube in relation to the instructions you were evidently given.

The hiss sounds to me like old/bad tubes. 

Problem is noise, mostly hiss, some underlying hum. Unit waits 1 minute, then defaults to 10% volume, Phono. Noise, both channels, increases both channels as volume wicreases. Noise at all 3 line inputs, however the noise is louder at Phono input.

Same noise with no input, just it's output to my Cayin which doesn't know how to make noise.

............................

IF it was good when shipped, only 2 things changed

1. shipping (arrived in good shape)
2. changed power cord

Could it be the Power Cord?

It’s a detachable power cord. Seller didn’t have USA, so apologized, shipped with one with two round pins (no 3rd separate ground pin). He used a voltage converter to test it with the 120v transformer he put in. He said no noise.

I could use an adapter on his cord, or a replacement cord.

I bought a USA detachable cord, same fitting at unit, 2 flat blades, no 3rd ground pin, no wider blade for orientation. Just like what comes with many TT, like my Panasonic in the shop.

Never had a problem with any cord in my system. I could switch the cord I bought for the one downstairs, but if it was a power cord issue, that would be hum, not hiss correct?

It ain't going well at all! I'm off for a week, just thought I'd let you know I might regret it this time.

Damn I wish I had seen that Luxman C35 before I ordered this. It was here in NJ for me to pick up, custom Rosewood Case, only $1,800. Would I have known how good a price that was? Would I have spent that much money? I'll never know.

mx110z has an appointment with Ryan at Audio Classics, wed 8:15 am.

Russian Preamp arrived a few hours ago. Very nicely/safely packaged.

1. Took cover off, exactly like photos posted, EXCEPT all connections are made!
2. confirmed transformer is 120 volt.
3. they didn’t have a US power cord (it’s detachable type), so he gave me a Jeff Beck CD in the box. Got cord, Bill’s friends at Greenbrook Electronics, $4.00
4. four tubes, two 6n4p; one 6N23P; one 12ax7EH each tube marked,
5. BUT, no indication where they go in the unit. Seller will send photo with locations shown. That is quite a mistake. I recall he mentioned one customer put the tube in the wrong socket and blew the board. They sent him a replacement board and instructions how to change, but that never would have happened if they just included the photo or a diagram.


So, I’ll listen as usual via mx110z with my friend this afternoon.
I’ll test the Russian preamp via Office System, Carver Cube tonight
Tomorrow compare Russian to mx110z as-is.
Sunday, pull/take mx110z north to Vestal, NY to visit my two photo buddies I met online.
Wed. am mx110z to the doctor for checkup.

when mx110z gets back from the doctor I'll compare to the Russian again.

We’ve been over this ground before. I convinced you that I am more invested in “vintage” than you are. I never said you shouldn’t own or like your Mc tuner/preamplifier. But a 40-50 year old piece of tube gear is likely to benefit from some new or upgraded parts, and any tube tuner of that era is likely to need re-alignment if that’s never been done during its prior life. Your visual inspection of its innards means only that it has never been on fire.

No, it's complete.

They had it ready, they just needed to know what voltage transformer to install when I ordered it on the 12th, they installed it, tested it, got it out on the 17th. Through Russian system, on it's way 3-1-21, finally USA 4-22-21.

mx110z, Say what you will,

I took it’s cover off when received, no visible problems, no apparent repairs or upgrades.

I hosed down all moving parts with contact cleaner a few times as I do with any vintage stuff. That FM radio sounds fabulous, and the Phono section also, I don’t use other inputs, but I tried them, all were noise free. All controls, mode switch, noise free.

I have a lot of vintage tubes of these types, new and used, but I'm using the ones it came with, I just got lucky. The whole point of this was, 'here I go again' (taking risks). If things don't work out, I'll deal with it, but I won't letequipment's age worry me. 

I have a dedicated FM antenna aimed directly to the one Jazz station we have, WBGO, 88.3 if you like Jazz, check em out online.

My Fisher receivers, 800C (now Bills) and two 500c's are also amazing, as are the pair of Fisher 80z mono tube amps from 1958. Those I had checked out over the years, a blown resistor here and there, that's it.

If it’s 50 years old and REALLY never been serviced, it’s broke in some way, you can be sure. At the very least it will need an alignment. Chances are it has been serviced at some point, or you would not love it so much.
Wait! Did you say your Russian preamp was delivered somewhere and now "only" needs a 120V transformer to be installed?  Where was it delivered, and who is doing that work?

Hmmmm, 

I'm visiting a friend in Vestal, NY. Same town as Audio Classics

https://www.audioclassics.com/

Right next to McIntosh in Binghamton

https://www.mcintoshlabs.com/brand/contactus

last time I went I dropped my McIntosh SS amp and preamp, they certified them, sold em in factory boxes, bought the Tube amp and preamp.

Now that I think this little Russian preamp will be here when I return, I'm gonna drop my McIntosh mx110z Tube Tuner/Preamp for a once over, see what A C recommends. It sounds great, love it, but it's original, never messed with that I can see, over 50 years old.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Yet ...

Seller just told me it's here in USA, (that damn JFK airport that held my Russian Tonearm when covid started). I'm going on a short trip, of course it will arrive while I'm gone. Neighbor will fetch it for me.

time sequence backwards:

EMS delivery from КондровоEE015444252RUUnited States of America Post

Passed registration in United States of America 22 April 2021, 18:41 USJFKA, United States of America

Processing in United States of America 22 April 2021, 10:03 JFK, United States of AmericaRussian Post

Released from Russia 01 March 2021, 00:55 , Rossiya

Released by custom house 21 February 2021, 14:49 130980,

Arrived at the Post office17 February 2021, 18:40 249833, KondrovoEMS delivery3 kg 794 gFrom: Пряхин С.To: ELLIOTT NEWCOMB

Ordered feb 12th, they just needed to install 120 v transformer and test it

Bill, lewm

thanks to you both for the comments about those adapters, I was, as always, just curious.

Bill and Elliot, of course the pin out cannot be the same; one is an octal base and the other has 9 pins. One has a wider diameter base and thicker pins than the other. Elliot was asking about an adapter that hat I assume would solve those problems. But it’s still a bad idea because the two tubes are electrically very different. Also, he hasn’t even received the preamp yet. Wouldn’t you want to listen first before tube rolling? Filament current draw is not that different between the two and most designs have some flexibility as to current available for the filaments. But the 6922 is apt to draw a lot more plate current than would be good for a 6SN7. Also there are dozens of electrically identical or similar subs for a 6922.