Rushton's DIY approach to ultrasonic record cleaning published by Positive Feedback

Thanks for that update.  Kind of a sad postscript about your analog situation as I am facing a similar decision, although I don’t think I’ll ever get rid of my core collection.

@weedeewop ,  I've been away from the forum for some time but got a notice of your inquiry so I'm logging back on to give some replies to your question and a couple others that have come up since I've last visited. Glad to read of your interest in US cleaning for LPs!

First, a status update: I have now downsized due to retirement and preparing to move to apartment living. This has meant selling all of my LP collection and my analog system as I shift systems to a much smaller footprint: I'm now listening entirely to digital files and headphones. This means that I'm no longer actively pursuing advances in what is possible with ultrasonic cleaning of LPs, but I continue to be convinced that what I have used is the best LP cleaning regimen I've ever experienced. I've sold my US gear to a friend who continues to use all of it and is quite happy with it. Also, I stay in touch with a number of people who have adopted the cleaning fluid formula I suggested and use it with both ultrasonic cleaning and with manual cleaning (but in a stronger concentration for manual cleaning). Thus, I continue to get reports of others' experiences.

On to some replies to questions posed:

Ultrasonic Tank Options:  I've not kept up with what may or may not be available these days. The Trusonik tank I purchased is still going strong without any problems. I see no reason to "upgrade" and am not sure what would truly constitute an upgrade given how well this tank has worked for my purposes and continues to work for my friend who acquired it from me. I know three others who are using this same tank with similar positive experience. The 10L version of this tank is what I had and, for me, was the perfect capacity.

Hepastat256 and other quats:  The principal reason for using the Hepastat256 was static reduction that the quats in the formulation provides. The quats in the cleaning fluid truly do reduce static on the vinyl. Given this, any quat might work. Some people report success using quats sold for "beauty salon" use, but I can't give a recommendation nor can I suggest an amount to use. If you can find it, the Hepastat256 provided an additional benefit as a bactericide and fungus killing agent - very good for managing the moisture that alway remains in the US tubing, filters and valves! If the online retailer QUILL.COM is available to you, they sell Hepastat256 in 64 fl oz containers for about USD $25. Here is a link:
https://www.quill.com/brighton-professional-hepastat-256-restroom-cleaner-handy-mix-dilutable-64-oz/cbs/51805647.html  

@sauce82  I don't know about "Epquat" - you'd just have to try it it the ingredients seem similar. The challenge is that quats and other chemical formulations can be different. So, watch out for anything in the Epquat formulation that might be unkind to vinyl. A good resource would be to ask the chemist on the AudioKarma thread I referenced in my original article.

Time/Revolutions in the Tank:  @ketchup , sorry for not replying to your query about time and number of revolutions from so long ago. There is no magic to my suggestion of 3 revolutions over 10 minutes. My goal is to keep the surface of the record wet and allow for a goodly amount of cavitation time in the tank. If I were to go one direction or the other, it would be to increase rotation speed to keep the record surface from drying while exposed above the water in the tank, so I might go to 5 revolutions per minute but stay with the total 10 minute cycle time. My choice of 3 revolutions over 10 minutes was just a compromise based on some completely unscientific trial and error and that speed choice available to me with my variable voltage adapter.

Regards,
Rushton

@rushton Having gone through this thread and looking into different ultrasonic cleaning tanks I find a wide range of quality tanks and pricing.  That said how has the Trusonic holding up for yu.  If you were to purchase an ultrasonic cleaning tank today would you upgrade, and if so to what unit?  The Trusonic 10 Liter 40 khz unit seems to get the job done.  The Vibrato units look good, but are out of stock.  The Sonix4 ST126H looks pretty good for a commercial unit.  Thanks.

This thread is why I love AG forums 
thanks for the contribution all but especially OP

This is awesome, thanks for contributing to all!

I'm having a tough time finding Hepastat 256 in the Toronto area. Will any quat do? I found Epquat by Lawrason local to me which apparantly does all the same germ/virus/bacteria killing that Hepastat does.

Would Epquat be ok, and what are the differences if anyone knows?

Thanks guys!

Hi Rushton,

Sorry if I missed this part of the discussion, but how did you end up deciding on three revolutions (0.3 RPM for 10 minutes) for the cleaning cycle?  Ten minutes seems like a good amount of time based on various peoples' results, but I'm not sure if three cycles of wet/dry for any particular spot of the record is going to do any good.  Why not just do one revolution for 10 minutes (0.1 RPM)?

@scm,

I’d agree with you on more of everything coming through. I’d just add that the soundstage is more expansive on all fronts. I now do not want to listen to any lp that hasn’t been cleaned by this new cleaner even though I had a great (what I thought was great) system previously. The other thing noticed is, there is much more static removed by this new set-up.

Even on lps I had previously cleaned, I’m noticing how much crud is in the new water of this recent set-up. Pretty remarkable!

How long does the concentrated solution last? How about the actual chemicals used to make the concentrated solution?

For me the improvement is way more than just a reduction in noise..there`s simply more of everything coming through.
If I had only one word to describe what I`m hearing it would be... CLARITY !

For car guys it`s like a Clay Bar for your Lp`s
Dollar for dollar it`s even better than room treatments and that`s saying something !
Been experimenting with cleaning solutions and am now at a point where I pull the records out of the bath and go straight to the Vacuum !

I've heard enough.

As I stated earlier, I'm still pre-steaming, which I still think is very important and will continue to do.

I'm using the exact same water/fluid as I was with my Audio Desk. So what is the difference?

On exemplary recordings, or what I thought were exemplary recordings, still are, but in a completely different category now. Take Blake Mills "Heigh-Ho", or Tanita Tikaram "Closer to the People".

These were excellent lps. Now they've been transformed into the stratosphere! I'm not kidding!

I want to listen to more records, but now I have a big problem. The records I want to listen to, have not been cleaned with my new US system. It makes that much difference!

The Audio Desk was a great cleaner, but this newer system outperforms it easily. Hows that for a recommendation?

I’ve cleaned & listened to several lps now. The main difference I’m hearing is a more open, yet agreeable presentation like never before.

Important to note, that most of the lps I’ve cleaned have already been through my process that is not too shabby...!

Every lp has much more meaning. I cannot explain how much this aspect affects my listening experience in a more positive way!

My Vinyl Stack arrives today. I think I'm going to start with using distilled water with the Audio Desk additive first. This will give me a way to hear the difference between what I was using vs. what I'm now have. Very excited!

whart,

Thanks for the update.

It makes perfect sense that your "point nozzle" would aid in getting into the grooves better. In order to save money, I'm fine with my pre-clean method of steaming, I don't mind the extra time/effort.

Never heard of the MA inner sleeves. They sound interesting?

The advantages of Rush’s approach are manifold: you can control heat, degas, filter using an external reservoir (which the newish KL does), use a surfactant and change the frequency if you opt for models offering such features. (Elma, for example). You are still in under the cost of most of the commercial US designed for LPs (save, perhaps, the V-8, which is a commercialized DIY type set up).
My best results come from pre-cleaning using AIVS No. 15, vacuuming using a point nozzle (Monks, but the Loricraft is essentially the same concept), rinsing using reagent grade 1 water and then running the record through the US. I had the AD, currently have a KL and when that goes, will go DIY-- I can use a surfactant, and do a reagent water rinse and vac dry on the Monks. My experience with these things tells me that the added step of vacuuming using point nozzle gets more of the contaminants out of the grooves than air drying, forced or passive.

I don’t go to these lengths on every record, but some of the older obscure/rare records aren’t always pristine, even at higher prices. Those really benefit from the pre-cleaning, and the post US vacuum on the point nozzle. There is no static or contamination issue using the Monks. (I have multiple mats, a wet and ’dry’ one). I’ve managed to get many records with wispy tracing distortion, and some which sound like the grooves have been damaged, to a very high state of play using these combined methods.
My work flow, while it sounds time consuming, is fairly efficient with both types of machines running simultaneously.
If a record looks pristine, I’ll give it a milder pre-clean on the Monks using the Hannl fluid (which @Syntax turned me on to a few years ago), a pure water rinse and then into the KL.
I’ve also changed inner sleeves to the MA, which is some sort of woven material. It’s less prone to scratching, doesn’t seem to leave any inner sleeve ’lint’ and, unlike putting it an HDPE sleeve, allows some air flow.

Believe me, I feel the pain very personally!.. Having said this the VPI is not an Audio Desk.

Many internal/moving parts. Electronics, pumps and the like. This is why it just makes sense in EVERY way to go forward with the rushton approach.

Cheers!

For 3-4 K, I do not think we should accept the breakdown rate of these machines. Manufacturer should take up some of the cost.  My VPI is still going strong for 26yrs. German Engineering? Maybe the word should get out a bit more.

Right now, it’s about 3 & 1/2 years old.

Robert Stein @ The Cable Company offered , (after several emails (to fix mine if it did not need (internal parts) for free).

I’m assuming mine won’t fall into this category. I’ve already written it off as a loss in my mind. However, this avenue is still open and did seem to help in my negotiations with RS regarding the above deal. The rushton approach is very well though-out and has the advantage of being very cost effective as well.

slaw,

Was your AD an original or Pro model ?  Have you tried contacting the seller or manufacturer for a discount for a new model?

I too follow Ruston's advice. The manufacturer replaced my original with a Pro model for a couple hundred. How old was your AD?

@rushton,

My Audio Desk finally gave it up. I just wanted you to know that I'm now pursuing your approach and I'm initially going to follow your method as written. I have the cleaner in-house now. Just waiting to order the rest. I am still going to use my steam method as my first line of attack.

Your article was, IMO, The best, most informative article I've ever come across.
 
Thank you!

Since I posted above, my last ultraslow synchronous motor died, and so I had to replace my DIY frame. I sprung for the Vinyl Stack UltraSonic Spin Kit.

Really nice quality, very fair price. Wish I'd done it sooner.

stenway,

Thanks for posting.

Can you elaborate:.. "first he said that manual is the best":

When you say (he) in your context.. who is (he)?

Thanks,

first he said that manual is the best:

With over 6000 LPs, I needed a faster way to clean than my trusted multi-step manual wet/vac cleaning process. That manual process got the best results I’ve ever found, but I was not keeping up with my collection and it is just painful to me to play a record that I’ve not cleaned.

but later he said that ultrasonics is the best:

I’ve now cleaned over 100 records using my new ultrasonic cleaning regimen and detergent solution for my tank. What I hear exceeds the quality that I’ve been able to achieve in the past with my multi-step manual wet/vac cleaning regimen, and this has surprised me given what I’d heard with ultrasonic cleaning demonstrations elsewhere.

there’s another Rushton article of his manual (NON ultrasonics) method???

I was looking back through my posting history regarding the Audio Desk, it's lifespan...

I did find my original receipt. In a couple of weeks, I'll have owned it for 3 years. Some have said it will fail. I have always kept the faith. Because, I have done preventive maintenance, above and beyond what the manufacturer suggests I feel this is the reason I am still enjoying this product.

I "guesstimate" I've cleaned at least 4000 lps... then put those same cleaned lps through an additional cycle before I put them up.

I'm not gloating, just saying that one should think about what the product does, how it affects it's own systems, and be inventive in regards to your conclusions.

Slaw,

I've had very similar experiences. Great!

FWIW:

I recently had an affirmation of my cleaning method.

I've been auditioning a phono stage (K&K Audio Trio) w volume. I'm fortunate that I live around an hour away. I've heard the same unit (w/o volume) in Kevin's system through his line stage.

Upon my first visit, we listened to Neil Young "Live at Massey Hall 1971/Classic Records", among others.

After my auditioning his Trio in my system with a volume control he rigged up for me for two weeks, I returned the unit to him.

In the mean time, I had cleaned side 3&4 with the DWDC from AI. I noticed a clearer sonic picture before I left to return the Trio.

When I arrived at Kevin's later, we listened to track 3, comparing his uncleaned and my newly cleaned NY through his statement Sonus Veritas phono.

The difference was not hard to hear at all. It was a clearer picture, as if a veil had been removed. Increase in dynamics were easily verified by us both.

Happy Listening!

astro58go

Thanks for Elusive Disk info and tip on cleaning the underside of Audiodesk wiper blades.

nkonor

A tip for any Audio Desk users, clean the underside of the wipers often. I use 99.9% isopropyl alcohol and a Qtip. You'll be surprised at how much stuff is there.

Regarding the DWDC I mentioned above, it seems to help if you shake the mixture up before applying, by a small margin. I'm not afraid of using enough to coat the lp well. (The "drop or two" method just doesn't cut it").

Happy Listening!

nkonor,

Got mine through Elusive Disc at 10% off = $72.00 but can make 6 gallons. According to AI, will keep for years at room temp.

astro58go,

Where do you acquire the Down with Dirty concentrate? The L' Art du Son is spendy. Also, I did not keep it refrigerated the first time I mixed it and it grew moldy in the bottle.
Thanks,
Norb

astro58go,

The delrin tube vacuums the RO water w/o a suffacant at the inner groves and Dead Vinyl better than the stock tube. Definitely quieter now.

My records have been given the best care that I knew how from the beginning.

Most only need the AD and RO rinse.
For Prized Recordings; My method is.
- L' Art du Son spread using VPI and brush; let sit for 4-5 minutes.
vacuum off; Give a rinse with RO and vacuum with delrin tube.
- Cycle through Audiodesk.
- Rinse with RO and vacuum with delrin tube.

I have a Patricia Barber " Live in Paris" that had Nasty tics and pops. Sent to Dave Burton "Record Genie" for a double cleaning with AD and KL machines. Reduced them but did not eliminate them.

My new method has removed the tics and turned the Nasty pops into slight tics. I am happy. Other prized recordings that had slight tics are CD quality quiet now including the runout grooves.

I admit that this method takes time. 20 minutes if I stay focused.Well Worth It for my prized recordings .

Thanks to Rushton for starting this post and to All that have contributed to this thread.

Best Wishes to All on this Journey.
Norb

PS - Dave has a record Flatner now and can provide this service.

This thread has really evolved....

nkonor,

Does the VPI delrin pickup tube have better performance vs the standard tube?


Regarding the "ole school method" of a lp between to glass plates... I tried it once except I used the sun instead of an oven. Last time I'll use this method. Not willing to sacrifice my vinyl for these sort of tests. I love my Vinyl Flat.

Any Audio Intelligent users out there?

I bought a "Down With Dirty Concentrate" kit recently. I had been using the standard Enzymatic fluid for years along with my method I described early in this thread. I'm getting better results and a much better feel. By feel, I mean, when spreading the fluid with my nylon bristle brush, I get a smoother action, a noticeably improved feeling (visual too) that the fluid is working on all levels. You know, the feel of a quality piece of vinyl, how it looks, how it feels in your hands when you're handling it? Yes, this (new) concentrate is that equivalent. it seems to cling better and have an improved surface interaction.

I had cleaned my Cars "Shake It Up" MFSL a while back using my former AI fluid and my steam, VPI, Audio Desk regimen. I played it again recently and it had several "pops". This is not normal for a MFSL/clean lp. I put it through my same regimen but used the new Down With Dirty Concentrate. The newly cleaned lp was totally silent. It actually looked cleaner. ( I now put a new/newly cleaned lp through a 5 minute cycle on my AD cleaner).

I'm using 15 ml per 16oz. of distilled water. This system can make up to 6 gallons of fluid. For me, with my personal method, this is a no brainer!

Happy Listening!

Agreed.  Pretty clever, Spencer!  If I didn't have a 16.5, I'd be blatantly copying your system for myself. :)

Very innovative rinse and vacuum drying solution, Spencer! Great to hear of your success with the US cleaning process. Happy New Year!

So I've finally got my Ultrasonic cleaning routine ship-shape. 

Wanting to do the post ultrasonic cleaning rinses as in the original article, but having sold my VPI 16.5, I decided to make a DIY manual spinning rinse platform. I'm lucky to have a clever & talented spouse who used her woodworking skills & ingenuity to do most of the work on this solution. 

-Using a $10 wood lazy susan from Ikea, drilled at center about 3/4 way down, at a diameter matching a threaded brass insert that accepts 1/4" threaded rod (which perfectly fits the "5 pointed star knobs" of the Vinyl Stack)
-Epoxyed the threaded insert into the center hole of the lazy susan. 
-Covered the surface of the lazy susan with water resistant peel&stick contact paper
-Screwed & epoxyed 3" piece of 1/4" threaded rod into the insert at center
-Layered a rubber washer, a 1" tall, 2.5" outer diameter Delrin donut (drilled 1/4" through center), and another rubber washer over the spindle

I'll post pics later of the platform & the tank filter/pump setup on my system page, "Silence of the Lamms" https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/133

Now the record can be placed on the spindle atop the donut and then topped with the label-sized protector and screwed down with the 5 pointed star knob from the Vinyl Stack. The label is now 100% protected topside from the sprays of water & chemicals, while the underside of the LP floats to avoid dirt & moisture from below. Manually slowly turning the knob provides a perfect vacuuming surface.

With this platform next to my ultrasonic tank, I remove both rinses with the vacuum wand purchased from SqueakyCleanVinyl.com. then place the cleaned LPs directly into a new sleeve. Works simply & effectively. 

With a 10 minute Ultrasonic cycle time, I can unload/rinse/reload 4LPs and be ready to go with the next four LPs before the cycle finishes. So far, results far exceed my prior routine using the VPI 16.5 along with the Walker Prelude Quartet system.

Cheers,
Spencer

I have used the L' Art du Son before, but never let it do its thing for 4-5 minutes. Always vacuumed right away. I did like the result until I discovered something growing in the unrefrigderated bottle?

Rushton,

Been using my VPI to give a final rinse with RO water from my (5) filter commercial grade machine. After putting it through my Audiodesk. Using a delrin tube. I Like the result!
 
Next, I am going to try using L'Art du Son and leave it on the record for 4-5 minutes before vacuuming off, then the Audiodesk and then a final rinse with RO. I got this all from this thread. I will keep you posted.

Thanks and Happy New Year!

Rushton, I too remember discussion of plate glass and oven for taking out warps. Would not try it; getter to high in those days.
Still, I am a firm believer in Flat Records. = Less Work for TT, Tonearm, Cartridge. From an engineering point of view. Hope those who started the thread will do the kind of effort that you have and share further info.

Thanks rushton 
nkonor

Hi nkonor, glad to hear you're finding some bits of information in this thread that you can apply! Thanks for contributing.

I've not used a disc flattener and don't have an opinion about their effectiveness. I'm old school enough to remember discussions about plate glass and ovens, but I was never brave enough to experiment because with a mild warp my tonearms have been able to track the record pretty well. My biggest problems over the years have been the sharp pinch warps we occasionally encounter, and I've wondered if a device like the AFI could ameliorate those. I'll have to go read the thread. Thanks for the heads up about it.

Rushton. The thread is AFI FLAT Record Flattener

Rushton, I am very happy with using my VPI w/ delrin p/u tube for a final rinse tip that I got from this thread !!
I saw a thread about Disk flatners this morning and am interested in these as part of getting the best SQ from our disks. I would appreciate your thoughts on this.

Well, here's a quick 180 degree turn. The submersible pump is too tall when sitting at the bottom of the ultrasonic tank, so I just ordered the pump @bcowen suggested above. A potential mess will be avoided.

With my vinylstack, US tank, Triton X100, 5gallons of DI water, isopropol 91% all in house I'm only now some rubber tubing & a couple of chemical delivery's away from go time. Thanks again for everyone's helpful suggestions. Cheers,
Spencer

Well as timing is everything I just saw @bcowen 's suggestion after returning from a trip to a local store where I ended up picking up a 620 GPH Submersible 4PSI Fountain Pump for about the same price with a coupon.  So I will give it a try and at least won't have to bother with housing or anything extra in that regard. 
If it becomes a problematic mess, we can always swap out for one of these. 

BTW, if browsing the allfilters.com site don't be discouraged by notices that the filter housings are only available in case quantities. If you call them, they often have individual housings available at same pricing by phone order. Very helpful folks there. Cheers,
Spencer

@sbank

A submersible pump may not be the best option, as you'll constantly be putting it in the tank and pulling it out which will get rather messy and probably become a hassle.  Just my opinion, but the pump type that Rushton recommended above would be a better route, as you can plumb it outside the tank and let it sit, just turning it on between cleaning cycles when you want to filter the solution.  I purchased the (similar) pump below, and it works perfectly -- plenty of power to get nice flow through the 1-micron filter. It's only been in use for around a month, so hard to predict how long it will last but so far no signs of any trouble.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01G305PK0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Just a note regarding pumps in general, using a bigger pump with higher 
GPM is not always the best choice because each model
is designed to operate at its highest efficiency in the middle of its
output curve.
Run it at the upper end of its curve [least efficient, highest output] due to lack of head, it can over heat and shorten its operating life.
If you happened to have a pump larger in output than needed throttle 
it down with a valve and you can watch the current draw drop as it runs more efficiently.
 Now back to cleaning records.

@nkonor - thank you! And thanks for sharing some of your experience with the AD and adding the VPI rinse step. I really enjoy getting data points from other people's experiences.

Rushton 

Have been reading this thread and appreciate your efforts and others who have contributed.
Bought an AD in January after using Dave Burton's ; "Record Genie" service. My VPI 16.5 still works as good as when my wife bought it as a Christmas gift in 89' All my records have been cleaned at least once by it and then put in a new MoFi record sleeve and then a plastic sleeve on the jacket. Started to use only the AD. But after following this thread; I bought a delrin tube for the VPI and use RO water for a final rinse w/ the VPI. I like the result !!  Thanks.
Came across another thread this morning, where people are cleaning there records "once" with their VPI and calling it good.
As with everything in this hobby. To each his own.

Best Wishes on your Journey 

@sbank  - here's an option for a pump from Amazon that several people have reported good success with. Nice thing is that is it fully self-contained and already has 3/8" tubing barbs.

https://www.amazon.com/attwood-6126-7-Attwood-Potable-Water/dp/B0002F66WY/

The pump & filter part of this whole equation is that something I am working thru right now. I just ordered a 1micron filter and housing from allfilters.com and am close to pulling the trigger on a "PonicsPump PP40006: 400 GPH Submersible Pump with 6' Cord - 25W… for Hydroponics, Aquaponics, Fountains, Ponds, Statuary, Aquariums & more." The idea of building a pump housing didn't appeal to me and the the suggested pump is no longer available at surpluscenter.com. I am trying to get a good answer regarding pumping power to get thru the 1micron filter and the allfilters lady thought I picked a winner with the one. If I order the pump, it will be via amazon so I can easily exchange for a more powerful one if need be. It should be easy to run the submersed pump in the tank between cleaning sessions with the filter/housing the only component that would need to be outside the tank.
Thoughts on this approach? Cheers,
Spencer  

@rushton Rush, funny, I had been floating my LPs on O-rings with the VPI for years too, the O-rings came with the Walker Prelude kit, and I got so used to the LPs not touching the cork mat, that it completely slipped my mind. Obviously, the O-rings are a good idea here too and I agree that any cushion is not helpful.

Any suggestions are to any particular brand or models of cheap/popular old tables that would fit the need, especially with a long enough spindle to fit the O-ring and the clamp? Is stretching a belt the easiest way to get to 16-20 rpm? 

@Dgarretson Dave, thanks, I see your point about drying, but have you tried an O-ring under the LP on the 16.5 and are you doing a rinse or two and then vacuuming the rinses off? I am planning to do so, hence my purchase of the wand attachment for my Shopvac and tonight's buy of 5gallon of Whole Foods DI water @ $0.39/gal. I'm sure I win Whole Foods' lowest sale of the day award! Cheers,
Spencer