Rogue vs ARC

Rogue's Customer Service is beyond expectation, frankly.

Nick and Mark are a team like no others. I own an RP-1 Pre and an Atlas Magnum II and love them both. I am as we speak, ordering a set of M-180's to replace the Atlas and will eventually upgrade to the RP-7. I run these to a pair of Klipsh Forte III's and the sound is just fabulous and I am eagerly anticipating the monoblocks!

I directly compared the Pass Labs XA100.5's and the Rogue M180's.. WOW the M180's better than the pass's. The rogues had much more control of the low end and equaled the pass on the midrange and highs. Anyone on he fence about the rogues should make the jump. They are amazing.. My next upgrade will probably be the Rogue Apollos, if the M180's sound this good I can't imagine what the Apollos sound like.

Has anyone had the Rogue 120 Magnum <> Rogue M-180 upgrade done? I know the price ($2,895).......but I'm wondering what parts from the 120's get used, if any?

I've only read info on the M-150 <> M-180 upgrade which of course costs a whole lot less.

I've had my 120's driving my Apogee Duetta Signatures for around 6 years now. The 120 Magnums sound great on the Apogees but they run very hot! Even hotter than the old Krell Ksa-250 they replaced.

Dave

The best amp for the money is the Rogue M-180's. Awesome. Ref 110? wheres the bass? I will take the M-180 over the Ref 110 any day.The Rogue M-180 is the GIANT KILLER!Look out al you $10-$20k amps.

The REF110 better be better as it cost twice as much.

I don't think ARC has a current offering that would be a good head to head challenge, imo.
It might be more interesting to compare the Rogue M150 monos with the QuickSilver V4 monos with VTL's ST-150 (stereo). All are about the same tube power and close in price-close enough. The closest ARC amp is the VS115, but that cost a little more too.

I noticed the Rogue M150s has a dampening factor closer to solid state levels, whereas the ARC tube amps spec much lower. Is that why some say Rogue has more of a modern tube sound?

I did have the ARC VT100 an really like it and would recommend it because it does so many things really well, but the bass could be a little fat and uncontrolled at times. At least on the speakers I used that were a little bassy too:)

I do know there is some really nice synergy with my Tyler Decades and Rogue-several people have that system around here and elsewhere.

But Tvad, what would Audiogon be without sweeping generalizations and unwavering opinions and conclusions? All kidding aside, I think the need to discuss all amps in the context of the speakers being used is essential to relevance of any assessment regarding said amp.

Ditka vs. God...... Da Bears........

Agreed. I got a set of the "lowly" M150's and am blown away how good these sound. A friend, who used to sell Rogue (he has a lot of other high-end brands) had trouble selling them due to low brand awareness, but when I mentioned that I was interested in auditioning my M150's against a MC352 McIntosh he had laying around, he said "don't bother, your M150 will blow it out of the water. I would take it over an MC402 as well". And, Mac is his biggest line...I have spent a lot of money auditioning amps in this price range, and this was really the only one that raised the bar of my system instead of just being a lateral move. It truly punches above it's weight, especially with good tubes. Bass, soundstage depth, female vocals all sound as good as I have heard in my system, and clarity is almost as good as a $6k set of solid state monos I recently had on loan.

Whether it is better than ARC, I can't say. A guy in town has the REF 110's, so maybe I can bring my amps to his place and we can A/B them. I know the REF110 has a bigger name and costs more, but in audio, that means less than nothing without hearing them side-by-side.

I cant believe that rogue is not selling more m180s because they are a giant killer. You get so much for your money, a true value in today's market. Yes you can get better sound, but usually for a LOT more money.

I have never owned ARC gear, but from the several times I have heard ARC based systems, I have been impressed. However, I am an extremely happy owner of a Rogue Audio
Cronus, and it is truly a wonderful amplifier. It's approaching its third birthday, and it makes wonderful music. It's built to extremely high standards, and I have always been treated very well by Nick and Mark at Rogue. They have been there to give me support and advice whenever needed, and I think the company is getting better and better. Happy Listening.

I have had both. The Rogue M-180's and the ARC 110. The ARC does not even come close. The bass is so much more there on the Rogues. The Ref 110..what bass..? it has none! For $5500 retail the Rogue M180's are VERY hard to beat. Even against my Lamm M1.2 Reference ($22,690), the Lamm's were better, but not $17,190 better! I would like to know every ones source. an Air Tight PC-1 supreme on a VPI classic turn table is hard to beat. Yes the cartridge is 3 times more money then the TT, but use that through a $25,000 pre and a $12,000 phono stage, and $32,000 Focals, and you would be suprised how the Rogues become giant killers.The Rogues also killed my VAC 300.1's as well. Listen with your ears and not your wallets.

Sorry to chime in a different light. To some degree ARC's predicament is kind of they're prisoners of their own success, they have a large installed base of products out there. Their products never die and owners keep sending them back to be restored, refurbished, and go back to be used in their systems. So now they have a couple of units that are 20 yrs old and perhaps a newer piece which of course they want to at least visually look like it all goes together.

Under new ownership ARC's challenge going forward is to move on make changes and continue creating classics without upsetting a lot of owners.

When rogue first started its true, they were good budget amps,but they were not built anywhere near arc standards. Rogue today however is a better company than it was then. Mark has learned a thing or two and now makes some of the best made gear in the industry. Look at the pictures on there web sight for the new five grand pre amp. outstanding build, all aluminum casework, mundorf supreme caps ect, check it out for your self. ARCs reference gear is better still, but for twice the price.

First of all I do not have any extensive experience comparing Rogue and ARC amps. I switched from the Pass labs Aleph 5 to the Rogue M-150's several years ago and liked the change it brought to my system. I recently upgraded my M150 to M-180 very nice improvement. I just want to add support to what other Rogue owners have said, the sound is good, the service is good, the price is reasonable and another feature that has been touched upon is their flexibility, i.e you can use 6550, kt88, kt90 and EL34 output tubes, each output tube is individually biased so matched sets are not required, they can be switched from ultra linear to triode on the fly and they handle the very difficult load my Martin Logan Summits beautifully. Clearly I am a satisfied Rogue customer.

Just want to throw in some positives for Rogue. I own a Cronus. It's built like a tank. I'm very impressed with the build quality of this piece in every way that I have seen. I cannot compare it to ARC, but on its own, my Cronus is highly impressive and I have no complaints.

Agree with better design over parts.
Not to run amuck, but the new digital integrated by ARC is quite a departure for them, the DSi200. Quite an interesting sound, and much better than their earlier SS. I've not heard the 450, I didn't know it was out yet.

Dgarretson,

Thank you for your reply, and you raise some very good points. I don't know why he had the experience he did, but it may indeed just have been an outcome of ARS' brief foray into SS. And to support your comment about good circuit designs being timeless, he had been happy with that amp for over thirty years and didn't want anything else.

No_Money, I have not yet heard ARC 450. Of the several Class D amps that I have heard the Veloce battery/tube/hybrid sounds best.

It may be that some tube amps can be satisfying even with middling piece parts, because tube circuits are generally simpler than SS(i.e. fewer total parts). Improving SS PH-2 entailed replacing three dozen filtering and coupling capacitors, among other changes.

Dgarretson, have you seen the new 450 watt class D amp they just released?

I think Nelson Pass might agree as well. Roger Modjeski too. Now, when marquis pricing is connected to those "high-end" passive parts with the promise of taking you yet one step closer to the absolute sound (without actually getting you there) it makes sense to sell with "Intel Inside". I'm no totally cynical on this, but I would take a great design over a box full of audio jewelry by a lesser designer any day of the week. So, I do agree, looking at parts is no way to tell if a design is good (to the ears).

>>05-07-10: Pubul57
I think circuits are much more important than parts in many, many cases. At least, they are more fundamental to the sound of a piece.<<

That's very interesting.

I have a friend who is a real Jadis aficionado. Owns them, repairs them, and is intimately familiar with the products.

He loves the "house sound" despite the parts being very ordinary in his opinion.

Reynolds853, Could it be that ARC's comment was more about the high cost of shipping & repairs for this heavy early SS model, relative to moving up to something newer? AFAIK, ARC still likes to promote its support for every product they ever made.

Also ARC's relatively brief flirtation with SS may account for their dismissive attitude about D350. IMO it is a shame that ARC pretty much abandoned SS after some promising early efforts. For example I have held on to a PH-2 MM phono stage that I purchased in the mid-'90s and have been experimentally updating with many better piece parts. The parts mods take the piece close to current reference standards, and IMO only serve to validate the strength of the original circuit design.

Tvad, I agree. I think circuits are much more important than parts in many, many cases. At least, they are more fundamental to the sound of a piece.

An Audio Research D350 came into my local shop recently to be sent out for repair. The owner had called ARC to arrange for them to repair it but they said that it was never a very good amp to begin with and recommended that he just buy something new. The owner was quite angered by the hassle he encountered and was not impressed that they said it was never a very good amp to begin with.

The amp was sent somewhere else and was repaired.

They are both good but different along the line Dave Mitchell outlined above I believe from what I have seen and heard.

I've heard top notch results from a system using ARC sp17 pre-amp, a larger Rogue power amp (can't recall exact model) and PSB Synchrony speakers. Same system using Usher and Magnepan speakers was still OK but not as good to my ears.

I would say not needing repair is better than getting repairs, with needing them and not getting them being the worst.

I imagine Rogue would acknowledge as much on the parts side to the extent that they offer the Magnum upgrades to most if not all their products, but value on their standard offerings would seem to me their driving mission. I can't imagine anyone would ever argue that ARC is not one of the finest manaufacturers in the audio business (and has been for a very long time - an American Luxman?), aside from issues of sound, they make execeptional quality products and provide first-rate support (Rogue may too, but I've never owned their gear...)

I used to sell both ARC and Rogue for several years. The Rogue gear is nice for the money and more round and tube colored sounding. Bass is not as extended or tight, highs are not as extended or open, nor is there as much detail. But the sound was always nice and musical.

Build quality, parts quality and design sophistication with the Rogue are not at the level of ARC, regardless of how you feel about their sound. Rogue uses more off-the-shelf and ordinary parts including transformers, where ARC uses more specialized parts (output coupling caps) and proprietary custom designed transformers, nicer circuit boards with double wide traces, etc... Fit and finish with ARC is better and more consistent including the chassis and even shipping cartons and packing methods. ARC gear is quieter and more immune to noise issues even with their non-balanced gear.

Rogue gear is more like a good home brew design where they ordered circuit boards and metal work to make it more professional. ARC sets a standard for build quality and sound quality that other companies have tried to equal for decades.

Again, none of this means you have to prefer one sound over the other. But to me it is no contest.

Luna,

Thanks for your reply and I am glad you found it useful. In my post I wanted to make sure that I answered your question right away before I started rambling!

The guys at my local shop speak very highly of Harbeth speakers so I'm sure you are going to build a very nice system.

Also, regarding Rogue, my experience with them has been excellent. Mark O'Brien has been quick to respond to my questions about tubes whether I was asking them via my dealer or just emailing him directly. Also, when we ordered my preamp, we asked for a non-standard feature to be added and Mark was very accommodating for what I consider a very moderate up-charge. I am very happy with my system.

Reynolds853,
Thanks for your in-depth description on your post. What you said about the Rogue M180s being faster, have a more tightly controlled bass, and possess more air in the top frequencies - is the exact information I am hoping to find out as this will be a perfect match with the slower sounding Harbeths. As with its reliability, I have owned Audio Research VT amps before and to be frank, mine have gone for minor repairs quite a few times. I am convinced by the other posters that Rogue make quality products on par with AR. I will surely follow their products and hope to audition one in the near future.

Luna,

Compared to the ARC amplifiers about which you asked, the Rogue M180s are faster, have a more tightly controlled bass, and possess more air in the top frequencies. The M180 build quality if fine as far as I'm concerned, and I am happy with mine.

I would recommend that you consider what sonic qualities you want from your system and get a preamp/amplifier combination that provides that sonic foundation and go from there. I prefer fast amplifiers; fast, articulate, well controlled bass; and the mid-range and treble that tubes provide. So, for my taste and budget, the Rogue 99 Magnum preamplifier and M180 amplifiers were a good place to start. From there...

I was building my system around Merlin TSM-SE speakers but changed to Silverline SR-17.5s that someone brought into my local shop - that is, I made the change after auditioning the Silverlines at home in my system. I replaced the crossover capacitor in the 17.5 with Mundorf silver/gold/oil, and the resistor with Mundorf as well.

I replaced the tubes in the 99 Magnum preamp with NOS RCA 5692s. I tried NOS Sylvania GTAs in the preamp both alone and in combination with other tubes, but they gave too much sibilance whether they were in the amplification or driver position. For my system, the all RCA 5692 configuration was my preference. If one's system runs a bit dark, then I would not hesitate to recommend the Sylvanias, but in combination with everything else that is going on in my system, I preferred the 5692s.

For the M180s, I had them delivered with the Gold Lion KT-88s rather than the KT-90s. I replaced the 12AU7 tubes with NOS RCAs, and as of this writing am playing with NOS RCA 5751s and NOS Telefunkens in 12AX7 position. I run the amps in triode 99% of the time.

For system interconnects I ended up with Kimber Selects. I auditioned some Audio Magic, but ended up deciding that I wanted to stay mainly with copper. However, that decision was more instinctive than as a result of hearing something in the Audio Magic that I didn't like. Audio Magic is really fine stuff and I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to recommend any of it.

For speaker cables I auditioned vintage Audio Magic Sorcerer, another Audio Magic model that I don't recall, Cardas Cross, Kimber 8VS, 8TC, 12TC, Monocle-X, Select 3033 and Select 3035. For my system I preferred the 3035s and that's what I got. But I have heard the Audio Magic on lots of systems at the shop and they sound great. It's just for my system, I preferred 3035. The 12TC is really nice too.

I put in an audio grade outlet - and yes, it does make a difference.

Every speaker cable, power cord, CD player (Rega Apollo and Saturn - and I got the Saturn), and interconnects, I got to bring home and audition in my system. I had eliminated other CD players from contention in the shop.

Thinking back about it, but not necessarily with the M180s, at one point or another along the way I auditioned probably 10 speakers in my home.

I hope from this you take away the following: if possible, find a good shop and listen to the equipment you are considering. And by "good shop," to me that means they know how to put together a good, matched system for your budget. Also, at the price point about which we are discussing, my shop let me audition IN MY HOME anything I wanted to hear. And if they didn't have a particular cable in the shop, they called the manufacturer and got demo pieces.

My system in still breaking in and keeps getting better and better, but the sound has already been described a few times as addictive. I sure love it! But I arrived at where I am with my system by knowing what I wanted, having a good shop that knew not only how to match components but which components would provide the sound qualities I wanted, and trusting my ears more than what I read on the internet or from responses from people like me!

Good luck and I hope you end up with a system that gives you a lot of listening pleasure.

ARC builds nice equipment, but their house sound is also a love/hate relationship. I have owned their upper end pre amps and older VT series power amps, I don't miss them either.

Like Chrissain pointed out, what great built quality when you are forced to bias 4 or 8 tubes with 1 trim pot? in addition, when a tube goes it will take out some resistors. I know better sounding amp that has fuse in the circuit and does not require soldering resistor everytime a tube arcs.

not here to bash ARC, though I don't care for the sound, but Don should learn to respect other products and back up his assault with real words.

and yes, I am an engineer too with many years of audiophile experiences.

If I won the lotto , a ARC ref 5, ref phono, and a pair of ref 210s might be in my future, but alas, I dont have such deep pockets yet. so the Rogue m150s stay, and make great music at my place. check out the Rogue m180 review in stereophile, a total rave.

My Rogue amps aren't for sale, and I've owned them a few years now. The ARC gear could be better?...I don't know... (but when I'm happy with a components sound, I don't care.)

As far as sound:

I've found the the Rogue amps have the "best quality" of solid state, blended with the "best quality" of tubes, or as you put it "modern tube sound"

Dave

only sane thread ? depends on what your idea of crazy is. at a friends we had a shootout between arc hd220 vs rogue apollo monos both at ten grand, the rogues KILLED the hd 220 it was not even close, and in every way , from top to bottom. there, I said it.

Hi
I own Rogue M150's,Magnum 99 pre and Zeus .I am very happy with the sound of the equipment the customer service provided by Rogue Audio and as far as build quality,well the Zeus is a monster amp weighting close to 220lbs, with heavy 3/4" aluminum faceplate and all 1/2" thick aluminum casework.Very well build amp.I also happen to own the ARC LS3B preamp on a second system and that too is good equipment.For those bashing Rogue I say that's very unfair.
Regards
George

Don, I feel very much at peace. And true, it is a forum for opinion. But you stated that the Rogue is cheaply built, question is if that is true? It's important because statements like that can affect a companies reputation, and it ends up getting repeated. I have no idea if Rogue is cheaply built or not (it may be), I do know their gear sounds pretty darn good at the shows, and their latest stuff looks exceptionally well built in terms of casing. etc. I certainly would be the last to argue that ARC is not top flight in terms of build, service, and for some sound.

All these threads on comparisons or what is best is a matter of opinion. I am only relating my experience.

Do not get "bent out of shape" over it like Audiofeil.

YMMV

Don_c55, no doubt ARC is a much more established company and long-lasting for good reason - it is unquestionably one of the great companies, with some of thebest products in the history of hifi, but that doesn't speak to your claims that the Rogue product does not compare, as a piece of equipment, to ARC gear. I guess the reaction is the sense you were denigrating a small company that has been growing and getting better year by year, some people seem to really like their equipment. It seems like the have been moving more upscale over the past few years.

Markwatkiss;

Your response is the only sane one on this thread!

I am an Engineer and very experienced audiophile for several decades.

ARC has been designing World Class equipment since the 70's and has thousands of satisfied customers and many, many great reviews!

Rogue has little following compared to ARC!

both are great companies . I worked part time at a dealer that sold both and are very familiar with both. I bought and still use Rogue m150s with revel f32s and it sounds great. I have four of my audio buddies that bought Rogue amps after hearing mine. I love them. I think they offer fantastic value for the money, and they keep upping the build quality with each new generation. check out the pictures of Rogues new five grand pre-amp , outstanding build, all aluminum case, mundorf supreme caps ect. The one feature that the Rogues have is being able to bias each output tube individually, and having lived with this I dont know if I could do without. Tubes do drift, even if it is a small amount, It is a real ear opener just how much sonic difference this makes, It sounds WAY better when they are all biased to the same number MA . Everything snaps into focus, clearer from to to bottom, and the sound stage is much better also. And you can play with the bias number, 45ma sounds different from 40ma or even 35ma, all which you can use to tailor the sound to your liking . The rogues are also very good for tube rolling , if your into that sort of thing. Do they sound as good as a pair of Ref 210 monos ? No they dont, but they are not 20,000 a pair either. So its not apples to apples. But they come closer than you might think, for 15,000 less. good luck, Chris

Don_c55 comments are completely off base. I have listened to a system comprised of the Martin Logan Summits, Rogue Zeus amp and Hera preamp and that is the best I have heard Logans ever. And that includes when I have heard them driven by ARC gear. Rouge gear is also very well made I am thinking about picking up a Ares phonostage when they become available.

Thanks for the excellent responds. When I put Rogue vs. ARC, I don’t meant to create a fight between the companies but hoping to find out if Rogue being less expensive, can produce the same level of sound quality as the more expensive ARC? It would also be interesting if someone can compare their house sounds. (I have never listened to the Rogue). My speakers are Harbeths HL-5. I knew I will not go wrong with the ARC but would be interested if the Rogue can do the job as well?