Revel F208s vs Cremona M vs B&W 803/804 D

Most of the SF speakers from overseas come from Eastern Europe, mostly Poland. I would not trust those. They have low ball prices, but are very risky. If you order from a reputable sealer overseas, realize that the shipping will be costly and you will probably need to pay duty to bring them in. Plus, Sumiko, the NA distributor for SF will not typically provide service for speakers purchased from overseas. If you find a reputable seller, call Sumiko for specifics if eventual repairs are an issue. Personally, I would not recommend SF speakers from overseas. I would wait for a US seller.

New to this site, looking at used Cremona from overseas. Good deal, but you know what they say about good deals.
Is this crazy, send money and wait to see what you get?
It also seems a bit nuts to spend $7,500 for new 804's. That are nice but not great.
I am using older B&W CM's for 2 channel music, mostly voice and strings viola de gamba etc...)
Help?

@ Aman4kr4, Hi, Have you come to terms with a decision on the speakers you want buy yet?

Thankyou Bob for your reply.

Bob_rynolds, The speakers we are talking about, I love both as I said before, I understand what you said in your post to me clearly!, I have been in audio over 30 years, I agree with you, there are many speakers that will be good as another in specific litening rooms, you are out of line with the will smith comment, I am nothing like what you said, you do not know me, you should understand that both speaker lines are made by the same company, Harmon industries, and that they would never charge more money for a product if it did not perform better,why would Harmon shoot there selfs in the foot like that, so to speak of?, I could understand your opinion if they were made by two differnt comanys, I believe what you are saying is based on your preferance for speakers, and that is good, some people like electrostats better, some like horn speakers better, and some like dynamic driver speakers better, and Ribbon speakers, all of this is system dependent anyway, there really is no such thing as best in any audio!, only what suits the buyers preference, and that is what counts, I believe the Revel speakers are some of the best and liked speakers, I am a huge fan of the revels and JBL speakers, now, to please change the subject about what is better would be grand!, Bob, a question for you, have you listened to the Revel salon 1 and salon 2 speakers?, what is your opinion in the differences of sound between the two?, Thanks Bob, and cheers to you.

I compared the 1400 project arrays to the F206. To clarify, the 1400s were for $9,000, for floor models. I also just realized that this was not a true ABA test. The sourced components were on the same rack, but different. The source components for the JBLs we're much better, so may justify the better sound.

The F208s I listened to were on a different day, different system.

So basically, I would completely disregard my above comparison between the JBL 1400s and the F208s. Apologies our or that. I will let you guys duke it out between what's better between these two Harman brands.

I do think the Revels are great speakers, and if I had to pick between Revel and JBL, then I would take the F208s in a heartbeat.

But I do insist that on the Classe setup I listened on, the 804Ds blew away the Revels on music playback.

Its all personal opinion, the above quote that the revels seemed to be "coloring the music" made me laugh out loud. To my ear they are far more neutral and less colored than any BW or linn, which to me are bright, forward and boosted in the presence region, which is a coloration. If I had ten grand to spend, I would by the revels f 208s, if I had fifty thousand to spend, I would by revel Salon 2s, the best speaker I have ever heard.

IMO you would have to be near deaf from too many rock concerts to believe JBL is better than Revel.

@ Bob_Rynolds, I also wanted to add from my last post, I am done here explaning real world facts between JBL and Revel to you, you believe what you want, you have not once produced evidence that Revels speakers sound better than JBL speakers, I have produced many facts, not opinions!, I have better things to do than to try to convince somebody the sky is blue and you say it is green!, whatever!

I personally have to disagree with the comments about JBL Everest outperforming Revel's top lines. I come from a background of pro audio and JBL is pretty well respected in this space, though by no means "the best". Not even close. Nevertheless, there are clearly good engineers at JBL.

However, I have also heard too many of JBLs home speakers which, while exciting to listen to, are far from the accuracy and musicality of Revel's. Price has little to do with how well a speaker performs. I've heard the Everest and I thought it laughably bad for the price and handily outperformed by the Salon 2.

Why is it expensive? Because it can be. It has a big voice, and a big, nicely finished cabinet. There are many who will be seduced by the JBL name and, not knowing any better, will be impressed by the big and easy sound. Is it full range? Yes. Can it play loudly? Yep. Does it sound like a movie theater? Check. Do I want it in my living room? Nope.

Only my $.02 of course. Clearly some posters in this thread will disagree strongly though I hope they're not offended. My ears (and only my opinion) suggest you will do much better with Revels top of the line than with JBL.
Peace

Aman ... kudos on your hard work. You have much more patience than me.

I would appreciate reading your reactions if you get around to checking out the Paradigm S8s. One reviewer with whom I have traded e mails some time ago thought the S8s and Revel Studio 2s share a similar sound. He referred to it as a Canadian sound of sorts, reasoning that Revel and Paradigm have access to the Canadian NRC research data and test facilities. For that reason, he surmised that the two speakers might be voiced similarly -- at least to him.

Must say though, I'm a tad surprised reading your reactions about the Revels. Other members have posted superlative comments over the years. But I 100% respect your opinion. Beyond a certain point, picking gear is a very subjective enterprise.

Looking forward to reading your future posts.

Regards,

Bruce

@ Bob_renolds, Hi, Very funny post you have here!, your explanation is way off mark at what I am totally saying here, first off, The JBL Everest dd67000 speakers is a brand new model that suprecedes the previous Everest dd66000 just in the last 4 or 6 months ago, The new model JBL Everest dd67000 speakers out perform speakers that cost more and less money than what they cost,these are a whoping $70,000.00 retail!, Now I will get real, A lessor model JBL like the new model k2 s9900 speakers that cost less than the everest are in some ways as good, this model is way, way more performance than Revels best, these two are the best models from JBL now, then the next two models down are better than any revel speakers too, I believe you should research what I am saying, look at the awards and etc... and how they are made and the specs, which are by the way, measured in a special absolute quite room, The best way to know, is go and listen for your self, that way, you will never forget what I said about the performance between the Revels and JBL speakers.

@ Aman4kr4, Hi, well I see you have tast saying what you have with the JBL array 1400 speakers, I would like to know your best buget for speakers?, I looked at prices for the JBL speaker you listened to, before you buy, make sure all is legit, this is the same with alot of high-end, I say this because, I seen where you can buy the array 1400 for under $5,000.00, sounds to good to be true to me, as you know, this speaker retails for $12,000.00, and worth it!, you can e-mail me where I seen this, and the both of us can investagate this sale.

Good response, thanks.

I liked the Cremonas and Olympicas as we'll. Beautiful sounding and looking speakers indeed. The Olympicas are apparently a LOT better, but way out of my budget.

Re: the F208s, when doing an ABA comparison using two separate set ups, both the Linn and B&Ws had a broader and more dynamic mid range and upper range. Guitars, female vocals, etc sounded alive in these speakers compared to the F208s. The F208s seemed to color the music - one guitar demo played like the guitar was playing backseat to the bass and drums. And the vocals sounded machine-like and not real.

The F208s excelled in bass response and quickness. I think they would beat most speakers for high impact home theater sound effects.

But again, for my purpose, for listening to music, instruments, and soundstage, the F208s didn't get me there.

Although they are excellent speakers, for a $5k sticker price, I'd rather by the $3k Linn majiks or a used pair of B&Ws.

Just my personal opinion.

In what way or ways are the Revels not musical for you?

You say you're looking for "musical." Have you auditioned some Sonus Faber Olympicas or Cremona Ms?

Thanks for the great discussion guys. I have done a fair share of listening to Revels this past week. I auditioned the F208s, the F206s as well as the Salon2s. I think they are all amazing speakers. The only thing if didn't like amongst all three was that they didn't sound musical to me. They would all be top picks if I just cares about HT, but given my main reason purpose is for audio listening, I for now have decided to stay away from Revels. The Revels did sound a bit better using a Levinson amp then a Classe, as you would expect.

I think the JBL 1400 arrays blow away the F208s for music.

But for now, I have decided to audition some Linns as well as some B&Ws before making up my mind.

I will also look into the Tribute and S8 speakers you mentioned.

@ Bob_reynolds, Revel is inferior to JBL top models!, Really?, your kidding right?, why would Harmon industries charge more money for the JBL 3 or 4 models that are more exspensive than the best model, most exspensive of Revel?, There is no way I believe that Revel would compete to JBL at this level of speakers, why carry the JBL line that cost more?, This to me is impossible!, I am sorry to put it like this, I have tried to make you understand the best that I believe here, I have listened to both brands as well, I enjoy both, but there is a level of performance you cannot get with the Revel speakers that the JBL top models achieve, cheers.

@ Bob_renolds, I am sorry for saying the back seat scenero, I assume this because JBL makes 2 or 3 models that cost alot more than Revels most exspensive model speakers, and both companies are owned by Harmon Industries, Forgive me Bob, I concluded this is only an opinion I have, I thought that what I said was common sence, cheers.

I agree with the following reviews:

For example, look at this Tone Magazine review:

http://www.tonepublications.com/review/paradigm-reference-signature-s8-loudspeaker/

And also Marc Mickelson's review in The Audio Beat:

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/paradigm_signature_s8_v3.htm

And look at Jerry De Colliano's review in Home Theater:

http://hometheaterreview.com/paradigm-reference-signature-s8-v3-loudspeakers-reviewed/

The S8s are ruler flat. Take a look at the bench tests in this Home Theater and HiFi review of the S8s (v2):

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/surround-sound-speaker-systems/surround-sound-speaker-systems-reviews/a-secrets-speaker-system-review/page-4-the-paradigm-reference-signatures-on-the-bench.html

(Note -- the x-over and bass drivers were changed in the S8 v3s. I understand that the impedance bump at 2K Hz was tapped down to about 20 ohms in the v3s.)

Frankly, I am uncomfortable recommending gear because there are a lot of terrific brands on the market and there's so much subjectivity when making selections. I only mentioned the Tributes because I saw a pair up for sale and I think they are terrific speakers. And the cabinet finish is to die for -- black garnet. The dealer almost freaked when I touched the cabinet. He used white gloves to move them around. No sh*t!

My only caveat is that the Tributes and S8s will sound best when driven by a low output impedance amp (usually SS) that can deliver high quality, clean current/power. Jeff Dorgay in Tone Magazine said that the S8s are good enough to be fed the best power you can afford. I agree with that statement.

I recommend that one NOT couple a high'ish output impedance, low power tube amp to these speakers. They have an impedance bump (S8s: 20 ohms at 2K Hz) at the mid-range/tweeter x-over point and a 4 ohm impedance saddle in the mid-bass to middle midrange sonic spectrum (50 Hz to 500'ish Hz).

Now ... if you have a little extra change, pick up a pre-owned Paradigm sub woofer and then lock the house to keep the neighbors out. You will be doing some serious rocking.

Hope this helps.

Good luck.

Bruce

Bruce

How would you describe the sound of the signature 8s? I'm looking to replace my F208s with something below 10K. I'm looking for a neutral speaker that has good imaging and depth.

Aman, let me be a spoiler of sorts. There's currently an A'gon auction running for a pair of Paradigm Tributes. The current bid is around $3K+, but the reserve has not been met.

I heard the Tributes last year at a dealer while comparing an A'gon favorite brand (X). The Tributes were being driven by an ARC VS-115 tube amp and sounded SPECTACULAR! They cleaned the floor up with brand X. IMO of course.

I own the Paradigm S8s (v3) and think the Tributes sound almost as good as the S8s. Check Paradigm's web site for a review of the Tributes. I generally agree with the reviewer's comments and observations based on my experiences with the S8s and comparing the Tributes with brand X.

This is a gorgeous++ looking and sounding speaker. Sure wish there were more B&M stores that carried a lot of different speaker brands. Buying expensive gear is a tough job.

Anyway, sorry to shift the discussion, but maybe other members will weigh in with some helpful observations about the Tributes and Paradigm's Signature line.

Good luck.

Bruce

@ Bob_Reynolds, Hi, No dis-respect toward Revel, I said I like them, what you posted is true, JBL makes many products that are far less exspensive, then again, re-read my post, JBL also makes products far more exspensive than Revel!, as a matter of fact, JBL has three seperate companies, one for pro-audio, one for mass produced mid-fi, and finally, but not least, a company that does not share their products on the common JBL internet site, It is a specialized company with their own site that only sales the exotic JBL designs, this company only targets the high-end consumer, This is all your evidence!, Bing or google JBL Everest dd67000, their you will find many models to support my claim, this is a seperate company, with a seperate internet site, The JBL extreme High-end!

@ Aman4kr4, Hi, I wanted to know why you are afraid of getting a brand like JBL?, many audiophiles have no idea that JBL makes a more exspensive, and a whole lot better performing speaker than Revel ever dreamed of, The JBL Everest dd67000 speaker model is over $70,000.00!, then JBL has a heritage that is legendary, been around longer than most brands out there, Revel is a good speaker, I like them, However, I assure you Revel is the back seat compaired to JBL in the Harmon industries corporation's vehicle!

I have the Cremona M's. They are revealing enough that you can easily hear the differences between different amps, preamps, etc. However, at the same time, they don't turn equipment or recording shortcomings into "in your face" kinds of differences. As one of the posters has said, they are just so musical and emotionally engaging.

...Or are you saying that the cremonas are just more forgiving in general, including recordings not in hd?

The Cremona Ms have excellent resolution and transparency, yet somehow manage to sound very musical and involving with well-chosen lower-priced integrated amps such as the Marantz PM8004 and NAD C356BEE and C375BEE.

I wouldn't get too hung up on country of origin...quality is quality...and Revel have a ton of R&D funding behind their products...the 208s would be an easy recommendation.

Do you think my source and amp don't justify the speakers I'm looking into? Confused as I thought the A51 is a premium component. I understand that the AV7005 may not cut it as audiophile, but it has balanced outputs and can be upgraded later.

Or are you saying that the cremonas are just more forgiving in general, including recordings not in hd?

What about Aerial Acousics Model 9? How would those fit in?

Thanks

If you plan on keeping your electronics the SF Cremona M might be less sensitive to the pre/power amps flaws.

Your room is plenty big for a used pair of N802's or new 803D. The 804D are too small.

I also just listened to the JBL Synthesis 1400. Good speaker bit the vertical horn is definitely a weird look. Sounds great, but just afraid of getting a brand like JBL.