Replaced CDP w/ Transport; Now, Soundstage Changes Dramatically w/each CD. Why?

itzhak1969: yes; it's that "unnatural" quality that I object to. 

There are some gear that imply very 'bright' sound that increases the resulition artificially ,  causing small details to jump to the front of the soundstage and giving illusion of increasing resolution but it's not, it's harm the natural and neutral of the sound ,it's making the highs sound bright,the mid fatiguing and lost of low/bass and dynamics .

macdude: All I can say is that the sonic profile of the Heed and Moon transports (with the same cabling) was very different. I suspect a "better" bnc would not have made the Heed more appealing to me-- its designers would appear to prioritize resolution above all else. I've heard DACs like that, too and they're most definitely not my cup of tea. This is not to say that my system couldn't benefit from a different bnc. 

The two problems I see are (1) scattered laser light getting into the photodetector and (2) the CDs tend to be out of round and thin and flimsy, so when spinning at high speed, they flutter, vibrate and wobble. If the transport was vertical the problem with vibration/flutter wouldn’t be so bad since gravity exacerbates the problem when the disc is horizontal. Unfortunately the Reed Solomon error detection/correction codes do not (rpt not) correct all errors AND the laser tracking servo mechanism cannot keep up with all the motion of the disc. The laser and the data are both nanoscale so it doesn’t take much relative motion to throw things off. Therefore, being able to control scattered light and CD vibration should be a high priority, since there is no way to recover losses of sound quality from either one. I.e., by the time the data gets to the DAC it’s too late!

macdude: you may be right, but when I replaced the Heed transport with a Simaudio 260DT, the extreme variations in sound stage and overly (to my ears) analytical/forward sound I'd been experiencing vanished. All I can conclude is that the Heed is in a class, along with some DACs, engineered for maxiumum resolution. For me, the added detail it provided, although enjoyable in and of itself, compromised the system's overall musicality to such a degree that I no longer enjoyed listening. The previous owner had mated it with tube power and I can see how that would make sense. I plan to keep the Moon. 

StuartK, the suggestions to replace your BNC cable are on to something.

It's a crucial link. And unfortunately the state of the art SPDIF cables are expensive.

When I upgraded to the Black Cat Tron, I couldn't believe the difference it made. It was like I was only getting 60 percent of the DACs performance with the previous cable.

Anybody?

geoffkait: I'm confused. You wrote:
   "The fluttery, wobbly and vibratory nature of the spinning disc doesn’t help at all, making the sound slower, more diffuse and more compressed". You clearly know much more about this topic than I do. 

I asked how could a vibrating CD hurt the sound. 

geoffkait: then perhaps I misunderstood you. Can you re-phrase the question? 

That actually didn’t answer my question but that’s OK. 

geoffkait: it's a claim I've read repeatedly by those who advocate burning CDs to a hard disc and by those manufacturers, such as PS Audio, that sell players with memory buffers.

Question, why you think CD vibration would hurt the sound? I mean, after all the player has error correction and a laser Servo Tracking system, no?

Regarding the fluttering disc: I use a rubber mat designed to be placed on top of the disc when playing. Noticeably improved sound. 

Of course. All CDPs have a transport. The stray laser light fills up the transport compartment like a Christmas tree light. 💡

geoffkait-- you say "transport", but I assume this also applies to CDP's .

Unfortunately the scattered light inside the transport reduces soundstage performance of all CDs. Palpability, stability, localization of musicians, separation of instruments and notes and the dimensions of the expanding, enveloping sphere. The fluttery, wobbly and vibratory nature of the spinning disc doesn’t help at all, making the sound slower, more diffuse and more compressed.

Try Jays Transport/Black Cat digital cable 
beautiful combination.
Also an R2R Ladder Dac 
Analog sounds with dynamics .

This is to be expected. 

The better quality transport is more revealing of the work that the engineer put into each unique recording. 

clearthink: given that Wire World has an online store, I don't comprehend your post.  

stuartk "I scanned the Wire World website quickly and didn't see any links to a return policy. If I can't try it at home, I won't consider it. "

While your policy, practice, and custom is worthy, justified, and admirable you're guarantee, assurances, and satisfaction are ultimately the role, responsibility, and policies of your dealer and not the manufacturer of the product in an instance such as this.

tweak1: Thanks for the suggestion. I scanned the Wire World website quickly and didn't see any links to a return policy. If I can't try it at home, I won't consider it. Audio Art has been my go-to cable source for many years and I've ordered their D-1SE to try out with the Heed. If that isn't a good match, I'll certainly be open to alternatives, providing a home demo option is avail-able.  

back to cables. WireWorld knows what it takes to make outstanding cables. The higher up their product line the better the sound, but whatever they offer in your price range you can count on for excellent value

boxer12: thanks; I'm familiar with it. . . unfortunately, it doesn't include Heed. 

geoffkait; Hah !  I'm afraid I'm not very good at explaining what I'm hearing without resorting to cliches. Usually, the only times I step back and focus upon sonics are occasions like now, when I've just introduced a new component into the system and my ears have yet to fully adjust to the change. In other words, the element of novelty is still very fresh. I welcome the intellect to the listening room when the focus is gear but if the focus is music, I want to be IN the midst of it, not sitting off to the side, analyzing. 

The good news / Here's a list: 
http://vasiltech.narod.ru/CD-Player-DAC-Transport.htm#H
The bad news / Your Heed is not on it

You should be a reviewer. 😬

geofkait: you left out tiddlywinks. . . and whether genuine tortoise shell,  ebony or titanium 'winks yield superior sonic benefits ! 

I've had the Heed DT in my system for a couple days, now, and am really liking it a lot. Although the resolution is, in some cases, dramatically improved over the Jolida CDP, I've encountered no listening fatigue or etched highs. I'm assuming this is due to a particularly fortuitous match with the Aqua La Voce DAC.

PRaT, a factor crucial to my listening enjoyment, is simply amazing.
Overall, I definitely have a sense of entering more deeply into the music. Instruments have more dimension, timbres are more colorful and vocals more palpably real. 

I'm looking into the possibility of purchasing a back-up drive for the Heed. Is there some sort of database that lists which drives are in which units ? 

Actually my point was, for a component with a foot on all four corners, if you remove one foot the component could easily topple over. You can get away with three cones only if you can arrange them in an equilateral or isosceles triangle. Three points may define a plane but four points are usually more stable.

What I think Geoff was referring to is that with 3 or 4 points the existing cdp sits upon you would ONLY need to shim 1 or 2 to change level.

Would be crazy to shim ALL existing points although you certainly COULD!

millercarbon, God gave animals and pianos four legs for a reason. He gave CD players four legs for the same reason. It’s so they won’t run around in circles.

 If the component does not have threaded feet you will have to come up with a shim or two under one or two feet.

Here we see the difference between Audiogon's reigning theoretical physicist and an actual, you know, physicist. The actual physicist knows three points define a plane. Not one. Or even two. Three. 

Quarter, dime, small ceramic tile, playing card, credit card, CD, industrial diamond, steel washer, aluminum washer. How will you know the CD is level whilst playing?

geoffkait: thanks for the explanation. So then, what does one use for shims ?  

I agree, ceramics kill brass. Brass is one of your softer metals. NASA grade ceramics are almost as hard as diamonds. Brass is waaay on down the scale.

geoffkait: this may be a dumb question, but unless components have some sort of threaded, adjustable feet, how does one "level" components?

>>>>Absolute level of the CD itself is not as easy to obtain as it seems. The tray level is not a good reference, sometimes the tray is at some angle to the transport. The level of the top of the chassis is not a good reference, either, because tolerances of the whole package are not exactly NASA precision. If you use a bubble level on the top of the chassis what you often find is the level varies. So, which one is correct? If the component does not have threaded feet you will have to come up with a shim or two under one or two feet.

Also, “fuzziness” is not unusual for ANY CD player. Everything is relative for resolution and dynamics. Unless one addresses scattered background laser light AND flutter and vibration of the CD whilst spinning I’m afraid you’ll always be on the fuzzy side of things. It’s always gaining to be fuzzy and compressed relative to what it should be. People give designers of this stuff way too much credit. 

georgehifi5: yes, I'd agree that (even my modded) Jolida does exhibit "fuzziness".  Funny-- it was Chris Templer's review of the JD 100 that inspired me to look at it in the first place. 

williewonka: I guess I'm in the minority re: brass. I have some brass footers and having been dissatisfied no matter where I've tried them, they now serve as "book-ends" on my CD shelves. Perhaps not all brass footers are the same? Mine are Edensound. I prefer ceramic cones and as mentioned, the original Stillpoints. 

geoffkait: this may be a dumb question, but unless components have some sort of threaded, adjustable feet, how does one "level" components? 

If one transport is level and the other one isn’t guess which one will sound better. And have a better and more revealing soundstage. The first two guesses don’t count.

"Another thing to consider for soundstage definition improvement is what sits under your components."

Agreed - I have had great success using 3 brass cones under all of my components. I also tried wood cones, which provided audible improvements, but the brass cones provided a little more detail and clarity.

In my case, the components sit on a granite tile with a thin rubberized mat between it and the MDF shelf. 

The brass cones vary in diameter/depth, from a 2.5" dia cone 1.25" high for the turntable down to 3/4" dia cone 1/4" high for my Bluesound Node streamer.

Unfortunately, all of the cones were custom made so I cannot recommend a brand, but there are some good commercially available products out there.

Regards - Steve

stuartk OP
 perceived soundstage also varies between different recordings.

This is a fact, my Cambridge CXC CD transport shows this up very well.
And it was also compared to the OP's Jolida transport also owned by the TNT-Audio reviewer Chris Templer, this is what he said of the A/B comparison between the Cambridge CXC and his Jolida JD100.

Quote: Chris Templer TNT-Audio Cambridge Audio CXC CD Transport review.
"To say there is a big difference would not be an exaggeration, the CXC clearly reads better than the Jolida. Playing music that had been ripped to the server via pc was always cleaner than the Jolida, which I had put down to the effects of the valve output and DAC. Comparing digital out on the Jolida to the CXC there is a vast difference with the Cambridge extracting more information (detail, air and ambient space) and less fuzziness (or cleaner sound). The CXC also trumps the sound of the same disc ripped via pc to the server."

Cheers George

williewonka, jond: thanks for the cable suggestions. Will check them out. 

boxer12: I haven't heard of Isoacoustic before. Presently, I've got the old style Stillpoints under the Heed. Will look into it. 

Another thing to consider for soundstage definition improvement is what sits under your components. Isoacoustic pucks are very reasonably priced & can greatly improve soundstage. Just food for thought... Also, I agree with uber that Nordost makes an awesome digital cable. 

Here is a nice BNC cable for $250 from the listings:
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9chh5-wireworld-gold-starlight-7-bnc-cable-excellent-condition-...
No connection to the seller and btw I concur with above the soundstage should change with each recording congrats on your new transport!

@stuartk - take a look at KLE Innovations cables

https://kleinnovations.com/kle-innovations-klei-products/
SPDIF...
https://kleinnovations.com/kle-innovations-klei-products/klei-gzseries-cables/klei-gzero-digital/kle...

All of their cables are very good and outperform most other brands and prices are in AUS $

I order from them direct and they take about a week to come from Aus...

If you want to try DIY here's a link to my own IC's that can be used for SPDIF...
http://image99.net/blog/files/category-002ahelix-interconnect-cable.html


Regards

soix: re: my system-- thanks ! It's been a slow process, as my budget is modest by audiophile standards, but I enjoy my system as much as I enjoy friends' much more costly systems. For me, it's always been more about the music. I could live just fine without an audiophile system, but I doubt I'd survive for long without music ! 

For your price range a DH Labs D-750, 1.5 m, BNC to BNC is a nice cable.  A bit grainy, but throws a big soundstage, good details, and a nice bottom end.  I'd stick to a 1.5 m length to avoid reflections.

I know a lot of members here have very poor opinions of Nordost cables but the change from a Nordost Silver Shadow to a Heimdall 2 was not subtle at all.

More detail, resolution, air. Soundstage changes reflected by each CD as I would expect.

Yes it really did show up poor recordings for sure.

If you do not mind used you could likely find one for $400 or so.

Gets my thumbs up.

williewonka: you specifically mentioned cables-- what would you recommend ?

itzhak1: yeah, that's twice my budget ! 

I am using this spdif state of the art cable but it's a bit above your budget :

https://telluriumq.com/black-digital-rca-cable/

OK. I've learned something, here. Thanks!

I'm familiar with impacts of increased transparency re: detail-- just not in terms of sound-staging. 

I think I'll still play around with different cables and would be interested to 
hear about anyone's favorite spdif cables in say, the $250 range, new or used.