Recommendations for MM Phono ~ Tube or Solid State

Dear @lalitk : " explore and experience the two most prolific ways to get that sensitive MC signal to the phono stage. "

I know the issue is not a " tiresome " debate however what you post and posted technically is not true it’s false or have severe misunderstood. Example:

 

" customized SUT can offer unique advantages in sound reproduction, especially if you’re aiming for transparency and musicality without coloration. "

Look customized or not has no single advantages and be customized is another

disadvantagedue that you can only play with that cartridge or some extremely similar cartridge.

 

Other example:

 

" what others have experienced; elevated level of high performance that can come from integrating a customized SUT + MM phono stage. "

 

Elevated level of high performance, this statement is false too or untrue along that what others listened is/are in way different room/systems and with different MUSIC/sound priorities and some in reality don’t cares deep on MUSIC and its reproduction as you want it.

 

Other example:

 

" MM stage typically has lower gain requirements compared to an MC (Moving Coil) stage, which can lead to a quieter noise floor. By using a quality SUT, the low-level output of an MC cartridge is boosted passively, reducing the reliance on active electronics in the phono stage. This can result in a cleaner, more refined signal that’s less prone to noise and interference. "

 

Technically those information is untrue too. Maybe 10 years ago and depending of the SS whole design phono stages the differences in noise floor were around 6db between MC and MM not today. In our unit and at high gain ( yje worst scenario ) difference between MC and MM noise level is lower than 1db and the noise level is way over 80db: you can’t detect or be aware of that kind of dead noise levels and in any way affects the cartridge signal in the active SS units.

 

Now I will try to explain additional information we need to know:

 

Do you know why exist the SUT even that it’s not the optimal aternative for a LOMC cartridge’? :

 

When MC cartridges started to be offered to the analog market just does not existed SS Active High Gain phono stages even all the LOMC manufacturers offered the cartridge and their SUT as its couple and that’s why exist so many vintage good SUTs designs as : Ortofon, Fidelity Research, Audio Note, Pioneer, Entré, Technics, Final, Audio Technica, Excel, Denon, Yamaha, Koetsu, Supex Micro Seiki, Luxman, Dynavector and many others and some of them not only compete with any and I say any today SUT but outperforms it.

In those old times the SS phono stages came with integrated SUT in the circuit board till started to appears the SS and a few tube active high gain phono stages but the audiophiles were accustom to SUT not because were better but because were just accustom too and I have to say that the first Active High Gain phono stages were not at today very high quality levels.

 

 

" the low-level output of an MC cartridge is boosted passively, reducing the reliance on active electronics in the phono stage. This can result in a cleaner, more refined signal that’s less prone to noise and interference. " "

 

First the SUT is really an active unit because " react " to the cartridge input signal it’s not passively as you think.

 

Reliance on active electronics? really? that’s not exactly true but a mistake for your part and NO the SUT been active the its signal IT IS NOT CLEANER AND NOT MORE REFINED than an SS active high gain designs.

In those all is common sense and I already posted more than one time that the true short cartridge signal path in active SS unit is way way superior to all the added obstacles with external ( any ) SUTs.

 

Again any additional link to the cartridge signal CAN NOT NEVER IMPROVE THE CARTRIDGE SIGNAL IN ANY WAY AND ONLY CAN DEGRADES THAT LOVELY CARTRIDGE SIGNAL.

 

This is not rocket science. Please only think in this post, is all what you need.

 

Yes, I respect what you want and I’m only trying to help you. If you accept this kind of help is up to yoo and remember that this is not about me but about to favor the cartridge signal MUSIC.

 

And please remember the true technically and pragmatic severe frequency response range LIMITATIONS where against an active SS unit you can't have more transparency, nuances pr complete signal because those severe FR LIMITATIONS in any SUT dedicated or not.

 

R.

 

 

 

@lewm 

SUTs are far from perfect, and each introduces its own unique set of compromises. Transformers too come with intrinsic limitations, and the choices in materials, core design, and winding configurations have significant sonic impact. 

This is probably why well-engineered SUTs command high prices—they attempt to push their physical limitations as far as possible. In a sense, every SUT’s design is a balancing act between trade-offs, and some listeners value the character that each transformer’s unique “flaws” can bring to the sound. 

Someday when you have a moment, read up on the trade-offs associated with using a transformer to increase signal voltage. In this thread alone, others have alluded to colorations related to the choice of wire used to wind the transformer, bandwidth limitation particularly in the bass which is just in the nature of an audio transformer, and distortion due to hysterisis and core saturation, not to mention the issues of impedance matching.  There is no free lunch. If SUTs were perfect, they would all sound the same, and there would be no need to spend big bucks for a well engineered one.

@rauliruegas

That’s a great question.

Pursuance of a high-quality MM phono stage paired with a customized SUT can offer unique advantages in sound reproduction, especially if you’re aiming for transparency and musicality without coloration.

I am not saying, you can’t achieve transparency and musicality with a phono that offers both MC/MM option. There are lot of phonos with MM/MC options that are capable of high performance.

I am currently using a phono board in my Accuphase SS Integrated, which offers a pretty darn good sound. This phono board has set the bar pretty high, one may attribute its gorgeous sound to the shortest signal path and/or its natural synergy.

The next thing in my journey is to experience what others have experienced; elevated level of high performance that can come from integrating a customized SUT + MM phono stage.

Firstly, MM stage typically has lower gain requirements compared to an MC (Moving Coil) stage, which can lead to a quieter noise floor. By using a quality SUT, the low-level output of an MC cartridge is boosted passively, reducing the reliance on active electronics in the phono stage. This can result in a cleaner, more refined signal that’s less prone to noise and interference.

Secondly, a well-designed SUT provides natural impedance matching between the MC cartridge and the phono stage, which can preserve the cartridge’s dynamic range and transient response. This often translates into a sound that feels livelier, more dynamic, and musically engaging, capturing the nuances in rhythm and tonal shifts. With a good SUT, you can potentially achieve a seamless synergy that may be challenging to find in a typical active MC phono stage.

Lastly, I don’t want our conversation to turn into a tiresome debate so please keep in mind, this is my journey and I would like to explore and experience the two most prolific ways to get that sensitive MC signal to the phono stage.

Hi @lalitk  :  I could think that you have very good reasons ( foundation. ) in favor of the MUSIC reproduction quality sound levels to look for a MM phono stage + SUT main/prefered alternative.

 

Which advantages comes with that alternative ?  what , some of us, are not seen down there or what are we missing about quality level reproduction?

 

Thank's in advance,

R.

 

 

@lalitk   " in one off bespoke products."

 

Some way or the other at some time all audio products are " bespoke ", some through audio distributors  some as direct sale.That's why exist the customer testimonials of all audio products.

 

" suggesting a product that pretty much unobtainable. "

 

Not really because is obtainable and through it the Etsuro signal could goes " directly " to the Accuphase amplifier with no single " curtains " in between but only the MUSIC cartridge signal.

Just for curiosity you can achieve information here:

 rauliruegas@hotmail.com.

 

R.

 

 

Don't be fooled by the low cost, my CORNET MM is high performance and plays nicely with SUT because input capacitance is under 10pF. 

@ricco275 

Thanks for your recommendation. Whest Audio is now added to my audition list.

I suggest considering Whest Audio. The 60se pro is phenomenal. Also the lower tier model. Hard to bit for the price. I’m not sure how much they would cost in America. 

I can’t think of anything nice to say to either of you but particularly to Pinhead. So I will say nothing.

There are quite a few years gone by where a pile of damp leaves can be copy/pasted to clearly show where the source of the Smoke comes from. 

The 'tortured metaphor in this case being' There is no Smoke without? '

It is easy to work out the Essential 3180 predecessor. being the Essential 3160 is gone, it is 'dead in the water' and in the current market, has proven to be able to be discovered as a sale item at a substantially deprecated value when compared to the original retail value. An approximation of 80% depreciation is seemingly with accuracy. 

What is very evident is that the mention of the Essential 3160 on the 'Gon', will very speedily be followed by the referencing the Predecessor Essential 3180 by the Sales Person for the product.

Using the various accounts of the volume of sales referred for the 3160, it can be assumed the Gross Sales Figure was aprox' $250 000. I'd be happy to speculate using as a guidance, an offer I had been made in the past, to be a representative for a Audio Product, that $50000 may have been the remuneration for a individual instrumental in the accumulation of sold 3160 items. 

The same percentage or even an increased percentage of the cut of profit, for remuneration for sales achieved, may even be available for Essential 3180. 

Using an interpretation of the history and the currently available evidence for the 3160 when found in the used Market.

There is the strong suggestion a 3180 could share a similar experience as a 3160 as a Marketed Item. 

The 3160/3180 when referenced by the Sales Person, are also purported to be comparative to $60K Phon's of which a few Brands are referenced. Are the $60K Phon's Models to be found for less than $3K in the current used sale item market?? 

As stated "At £1.2K. I would be quite happy to have the experience of the Phon' and put it out for Longterm Loan, enabling the Local HiFi Group to assess it. That would be very very interesting. 

 

 

@lewm

Perhaps, you’re reading too much into this. I made it very clear that I’m not interested in one off bespoke products. Frankly, I did not quite understand the value in suggesting a product that pretty much unobtainable. My last comment was directed towards what ensued afterwards. A series of posts about 3160 / 3180 that has nothing to do with discussion on hand.

Please enlighten me how’s your back n forth banter with @pindac relevant or helpful to discussion on hand?

 

Yes, you got me.  I am in cahoots with Raul to tout the Essential 3160, of which there were maybe a dozen ever made and which were all sold out 5-10 years ago.  Lalitk, I am surprised at you. I brought up the 3160 in response to your own question asking whether I/we knew of any other phono stage that incorporates separate discrete circuits for MM and MC cartridges.  Furthermore, you are engaged in a quest for a new phono stage by virtue of this thread.  To accuse one who responds to your thread of "product placement" (parroting one of Pindac's tortured metaphors) by naming one candidate unit, which you correctly noted is perhaps too unobtainable to be considered, is kind of a double-cross. I also named the DSA phono III; was that also a cynical example of product placement?

Pindac, you wrote, "As stated for myself 'I am not part of a Covert Advertisement Strategy or hoaxed into a Product Shill' ".  You are certainly not either of those things. You are usually blowing smoke instead.

There has been speculation in the past on this forum about the individual doing Covert Placement of products they have a Vested Interest In.

I find it very easy to discover within the 'Gon' Product Plugs from the suspected Head of the Sales Team, especially making claims on a selection of occasions the device is comparable to $60K designs.

I also find it quite easy to discover the few who come forward to underpin the shameless promotion, by encouraging the dialogue to expand into further marketing spiel being spewed.

Similar claims are also able to be discovered, where claims made for a Tonearm Design are slipped in as a Covert Placement. Where the spew on these occasions are the claim, the comparative Tonearm to the Model is a model costing $55K. 

As stated for myself " I am not part of a Covert Advertisement Strategy or hoaxed into a Product Shill ". 

"I stand proud knowing that". 

    

“Strategic Product Placement comes to mind with the help of a friend or two.”@pindac 

I couldn’t agree with you more, it certainly appears that way! 

Nothing New is such a reply, the same has been met in the past. 

I see no reason to change my answer. 

Individuals who's designs I reference know my Forum Names and Forums I use. 

Occasionally I am corrected on a content I have posted

I don't remember ever claiming to be EE orientated. 

Individuals who's designs I reference don't piggy back on posts made by myself. Who best to divulge the IP but themselves. 

More importantly by their silence I am not part of a Covert Advertisement Strategy or hoaxed into a Product Shill. 

I stand proud knowing that. 

Funny how the regular references to the Essential 3160 and very speedily follow up references to the Essential 3180 appear in Threads with quite a few hits on the Thread itself.

Strategic Product Placement comes to mind with the help of a friend or two. 

 

What would anyone here thank you for, Pindac? In most cases, you reveal nothing about whatever it is you are praising, as above, and by revealing no names or details of the product, no one here can benefit from either knowledge of it or the purchase of it. Perhaps the audiophiles in your immediate circle in the UK do benefit and would have reason to thank you for bringing a phono stage, a tonearm, a cartridge, a speaker, or whatever it may be, to their attention. I do see that you invited inquiries. OK. I am hereby inquiring. Please tell me more about the new phono stage. If there are proprietary secrets, just tell me, and others, as much as you can without violating any confidentiality agreement.

Another Product was referenced, with a cleverly worded description of a design intent, which is undoubtedly Market Spiel, as the Preface to bringing inro the writing and mentioning the Product the Author has a Vested Interest In.

I’m relaxed.

How abouts, I am involved in the supplying of a New Phonostage that is coming to the Market. This New Model Supersedes an earlier Model which I also had a Vested Interest In.

I very much doubt I'll be getting a Thank You Pindac 

I am open to inquiries, please contact me for further information.

Certainly much more too the point than looking for the opportunities to slip in through the Back Door, to keep finding ways of announcing the Model being referred to,

 

For MM use with a SUT, I would consider the EM/IA LR phono corrector and the Ypsilon VPS100.

Thank's @lewm   .

 

R.

I think Raul here quotes the words of Huber from FM Acoustics, not touting his own products. So relax.

@lewm stated "I see that there was one on US Audiomart for $3K and sold".

Nothing incorrect in that statement.

As for the follow up Posts looks like the referencing a Phono Model has flung the door open for plenty of very Biased Sales Spiel. Nothing new to be discovered on the 'Gon', this agenda lurking in the corners.  

Btw, @lewm   : Do you think that the DAS parts and box can have a price of 19.K as is its price tag?  I know you don't and

Certainly not, maybe 5k and the other 14K-!5K where are?. Obviously inside the designer/manufacturer knowledge levels and skills and if you open  the FM Acoustics you can say: hey where are the 120K that I paid for both units ( phono and line )?  because not you but no-sense gentlemans could say no more than 10K down there but it's the Manuel Huber knowledge/skills who puts him There and between other unit/design characteristics " things " like these:

 

""" 

• Ultra linear balanced line drivers: no more matching problems of cables and electronics.
• Entire unit uses discrete circuitry of proprietary enhanced Class A design: no signal-degrading IC’s, transformers, hybrid circuits, tubes or op-amps.
• Hand-selected, high-precision matched components of DIN, IEC & MIL standard secure accuracy and long-term stability.
• Performance without equal. The technology, circuitry and manufacturing methods are proprietary to FM ACOUSTICS.
• The ultimate solution for restoration work, mastering studios, libraries and dedicated record collectors.  """"
•  

 

R.

@lewm   :  Obviously I know the owner who offered the 3160 for 3K in USA. He is avery kind Asian Deargentleman who all his life was and is accustomed  to certain kind of color in MUSIC LP reproduction ( not the natural color that comes in live MUSIC. ) and with a way of thinking a little different from non Asian audiophiles.

Yes he had tube electronics but 17 year ago he was in " shock "/surprised by the Essential 3160 that's a " non-signature " quality level performance other than the natural color of what's in the LP recording. He was waiting for a deep transistor signature that could be to agressive to his like but was not that way and he had the unit for several years and yes it has today tubes. He never mentioned to me that could exist some kind of quality performance characteristics where he dislike and when I talk with him about he just told me that the new phono is what he needs.

 

Now, just from the begining with the Essential 3150 till today our alternative to handled MC cartridges gain stage needs to be through bipolar devices because it satisfied best the MC electrical needs as MM are better served by FETs, this not means that we can't use FETs in the MC stage because we can do it but our choice about it does not changes yet over time.

 

You are rigth when posted that soliid state active electronic devices ( other than OP-Amps. ) that over the last 20 years in true there were  really no high improvements especially with bipolars used in phono stages, FETs has some " news " in this regards.

The major changes in the solid state electronics designs came with the SMD passive parts  that permits lower noise levels and circuit boards " size " but the SMD has a limitation against the true hole passive parts and is its temperature limits where can works.

 

When designers/manufacturers as the ones top Phono Stages has a NEW model in reality ( this is our experiences with FM Acoustics, J.Curl Vendetta Research, Boulder and the like. ) is not a totally new design because the units designed before where really " statements " of product and in the " new " ones the foundation of the design came and comes from that first unit and only change the approach in the new unit design with some design improvements " here and there " that the customers can hear: the overall new unit has ( not and day differences. ) better quality level performance with out losted the main design characteristics from where it came/comes. The  Blowtorch  unit is an example of those: the whole design of that Phono Stage were made by 3 different and touted designers where the " job "  of J.Curl was the phono electronics design where he took as design foundation his Vendetta Research  he did not " invented " a totally new design.

Yes, as in the began the 3180 still is a PhonoLinePreamp ( 2 independent active phono stages and 1 line preamp. All fully balanced and true dual mono. ) because if in any part of a home system we need a very special kind of sinergy/harmony/in sync/in tune is just there between the Phono Stage design and the Line stage design along its active/passive parts.

There we don't want a MIX of different " colors " between Phono Stage and Line Stage because is not good in anyway ( in a good designs ) to the MUSIC and the MUSIC reproduction.

LP reproduced MUSIC must and has to sound as the MUSIC score that was recorded in the same VENUE to achieve the same kind of instruments Transients Response.

That and no matter what can't be  acomplished  with separate Phono Stage and Line Stage coming from different " manufacturers/designers. We need to take care of that cartridge signal extreme fragility to avoid at maximum its degradation. We care of system hardware where really matters.

Yes, for us both units most be integrated but this is only us and other gentlemans have their own way of thinking and MUSIC enjoyment.

 

R.

 

Was it stolen, or did you lose $11K between buying it and later selling it? If the latter, as I am sure you realize, audio gear is not a good way to invest. Also, if you choose carefully and like what you buy, you will keep it for many years. Those many years of listening pleasure are compensation for any long term cost of ownership. In any case, you cannot lose $11K, if you pay $4K (what I paid for mine) or less (if you believe Pindac) for an Essential 3160, and a DSA phono III can also be had used for less than $11K, I would think.

Wait! I thought of a third possibility for how you could have lost $11K.  The unit malfunctioned and because it was "boutique" or a one-off, you could not get it serviced.  Is that it?  If so, neither the 3160 nor the phono III fall into that category.  Good service is available on both.

@lewm 

Thank you for your recommendation on DSA. I will read up on its potential in my system. No offense but I will never consider buying a one off product due to my past experience. I lost over $11K in one such product :-( 

One never knows, does one? I hadn’t mentioned the Essential 3160 previous to your question about what stage has separate MM and MC circuits, because of its rarity. But if you can find one, I can recommend it very highly. Actually, Raul may be able to help you acquire one, from someone who is moving "up" to the 3180. Another company that makes phono stages with multiple separate RIAA circuits is DSA. Their Phono III, which offers not one, not two, but three discrete RIAA circuits that can operate in balanced or unbalanced mode and with very flexible gain set separately for each circuit. Nothing tops that for flexibility. I heard an early version in my home courtesy of Doug Hurlburt, the designer. Very good.

All this fuss over a phono which is pretty much unobtainable 🙄

My point was merely to correct you as regards the current exchange rate between pound and dollar.  First, you estimated that a used Essential 3160 can be found for $2500, and then you estimated you could find one in the UK for only 1200 GBP, which is much less than $2500. US$2500 is more like 1950 GBP. I now see that you simply mis-estimated the exchange rate.  There is also a question whether the 3160 can run on 240V.  Possibly it can do so; I think there is a switch on the rear of the PS chassis or inside the PS chassis, for that, but maybe not.

No matter what most of us say, most of us (including you and I) at least occasionally fall into the trap of equating cost with level of performance, which is nearly always misleading if not plain wrong.

@pindac stated " What caught me out is that certain US Brands in Phonostages and Amp's that are imports to the UK are discovered to be heavily discounted when ending up as sale items in the UK used market, using the US used pricing for the 3160, I suspected the same Phon' discovered in the UK as a used sale would not stretch a budget much more than £1200".

Depreciation is Depreciation, not much in a market place avoids its impact. Much of the depreciation witnessed on a product is seemingly governed by how desirable it is to be owned. I would suggest if a Product plummets in Value over time when it is offered as used sale item, as a product it has not got too much interest attached to it in the Market Place. This seems to be not so different to a New Product becoming Heavily Discounted if the Turnover of sales does not take off as the sales were projected for it.      

Myself, I don't judge a device for its capability to make an Impression based solely on Price of the Device. For myself, a decision made, is based on the function of the finished build and how the experiencing of the end sound has the capability for creating an impression as being attractive and wanted to be maintained.

It is this interest in experiencing the end sound that is able to be produced, that has been the stimulus to encourage myself to travel multiple thousands of miles as round trips to share in listening experiences of a broad range of audio devices. 

After having quite a selection of experiences of being sat in front of Demo's of Commission Designed and Built Devices or Self Built Designs vs Commercially Produced Designs in systems up to £200Kish in Value. I have been able to develop my Experiential Learning to the point where I stand confident in what I class as insights into how a broad range of Audio Equipment is able to function. I have certainly became a not so easy candidate to be swayed by opinion of others.

I am happy to report on the 'Gon' on occasions, a Build for a Audio Device that required a BOM of approx' £2K as a finished and functioning design, that has been more than capable as a design, to sit side by side in comparison with a similar functioning Audio Device that costs close to £50K. I can also happily state, this is not a 'one off experience'. I have been introduced to BOM's for a device that have been to myself attractive to consider, that when heard as the functioning end design, has proved to be more than capable as a performer, when compared to much more expensive commercial designs.

The cost of a device means very little to Myself. The design for the electronics and the end sound able to be produced as a result of the design selected is what really matters to myself.

It is very evident that there are a smallish proportion of  individuals, that are not so Taxing when creating their Business Model that is allowing others to buy into their designs for Audio Devices.

It is also very very evident there is a Business Model from a much larger proportion of another type of individual. That are ready and waiting in the Wings to add a Substantial Tax and even a Stealth Tax to enable an individual to buy into the broader available ranges of this groups Designs.

Some Companies are the Pinnacle of this Marketing Philosophy, where the Business Model is seemingly for, Low Volume Sales, which is used to Justify Substantial High Profit Margins on Products that are a so called unobtanium design that can't be offered from other competing suppliers.

It is almost like these Companies are actually suggesting they are so unique, they are owning the electricity being sent through the devices they supply to be used in a Audio System and no other can get to their special source of electricity. To myself, when the notion is being planted, that  something quite ubiquitous 'is unobtanium elsewhere',  'smoke and mirrors' comes to mind 

The following is a few very recent words from the Owner of darTZeel

"But above all, the race to offer the most expensive product, claiming it’s better, while giving ever larger discounts to end users".

"This trend, though not new, is now rotting the extreme High-End market and is destroying the industry".

" I, Hervé Delétraz, founder and creator of the darTZeel brand, have decided that this business model no longer aligns with my vision of Extreme High End".

  

1.2K GBP is about $1.5K these days.

@pindac Stated " I would be better off financially by sticking with the Essential 3160 at an approx’ £1.2K option, even though as a design it will be obsolete and superseded by the other designs available today ".

@lewm stated "The original is barely 10-15 years old" - "the bipolar transistor that Raul et al use in the MC gain stage is out of production"

I have made no secrets on the Audiogon Forum that most of my HiFi System is produced as a Commission Build.

Most of the Designs that have been selected are Bespoke. Certain Electronic Components which have been selected to be used in certain Devices, such as the Tranx’s are ’one off’s produced as Hand Wound Designs.

Amp’s have been as the end design, Voiced to my preferences prior to them being brought home. Amp’s when home over a period of usage have been Tube Rolled with the intention to discover a Voicing that is a personal preference.

Every audio item able to produce sound that I have owned and used as a ’go to’ tool over the past 25+ years will have undergone a process of having it Voiced to suit my personal preferences.

In some cases I have been present as the Voicing was being undertaken. In other cases a very good description was supplied of the expectation of the Work to be undertaken, that was realised by myself as being an option that had an attraction.

In relation to Phonostages, I make it no secret on the ’Gon’, I have made it a secondary hobby to experience many in use, especially in short time periods between each demo’ received.

Such experiences have lead me to forming the view, there are a selection of Designs for Phon’s that share a similar Circuit / Topology are not appealing, the sonic trait from the design has for myself been easily detectable and not wanted.

Such experiences have also lead me to forming the view, there are a selection of designs for Phon’s that to my personal preference have proved to be very attractive. These Designs for a Phon’ are wanted to be continuously experienced and maintained in use. Some are commercial products and some are Self Built designs, that are produced by very competent individuals with EE Skills or Qualified EE’s.

Such experiences leaves one with info that is not so commonly assessed. Where the cost for Phon’s is usually made known or a friendly inquiry will reveal the cost for a particular model. Being privy to such info on costs allows for comparison to be used to assess value for money.

When a BOM (Bill of Materials) for the Phon’s produced as Self Built Designs is discovered to be typically between £500 - £2Kish and these designs depending on cost have been found to sit comfortably in comparisons with Commercial Brand Phon’s costing approx’ £2K - £10K+. It does not take long to work out the Components used in a Commercial Design exclusive of the Phon’s casing, are going to fall somewhere near the £300 - £1K mark.

As I know and share with the EE and Designer of a Commercial Branded Phon’ used for a Demo’, who was commissioned by a Company to produce one of the £10K+ Phon’s, I know the Ball Park on the components BOM being under £1K was the suggestion.

Where I am different to many enthusiast’s of Audio Equipment is that much of what I buy / going to buy, is governed by a BOM + EE Cost and not a retail price.

In relation to Commercial Branded Products there is a need for a substantial depreciation from retail to be able to get it bought for what would be described as close to the BOM for the device.

The Individuals I know who bought into Modwright and VAC are both very adept EE’s, who made the choice for the purchase as their confidence, and knowledge to repair was ’in-house’ and the purchase was a worthwhile Punt. From what I know of the purchase prices, I would strongly suggest these were very close to BOM in their bought value.

There is Speculation in my finding a Essential 3160 surface in the UK, but recently a Modwright has once more surfaced, offered for sale from a different person than the owner that I know. The asking price has started high. In the past five years maybe the Modwright Models have become more desirable as a Brand on the UK ?

What I feel more confident about is that when a Essential 3160 is discovered to be purchased for between £1.2K and $2.5K. At this cost, it will be quite close to the BOM for the product when first produced, this is a method of purchasing more to my liking, I'm sure it has a broader appeal as well.

Any thoughts or opinions shared on any Phon’ as a performer will be taken with a pinch of salt, I know what I like and what I don’t like when it comes to a produced end sound. For myself hearing is everything.

If a trusted EE who has a wealth of experience building Phon’s suggested as a part of the Voicing experience to tune the MM/MC Stage, suggested it was best that the bipolar transistor or any other component is removed, it would go. Such a component is not really worthwhile getting too excited over, the trials be undertaken would be setting the precedent.

Similar happened with my most recent commission built Phon’, the EE was struggling with my want to Voice it differently to their selection for the end sound. I was confident a few component changes would help create a change that would have the potential to move more toward my preferences for the end sound. In the end I got my exchanges and I got my end sound wanted. The EE said the design I had put in place will be a Upgrade option on their choice made for the Base Model.

The Commission Built Phon’ for a period of time was just jaw dropping good, and then the ’what if’ occurs, unavoidable it is. The Later Tube Rolling experiences that were undertaken, discovered Valves that proved to be really capable of bringing the Phon’ out of its shell, it was no longer a Candle under a Bushell.

Phon's are such good devices to develop being overly interested in, there is so much learning about produced sound that can be attained, through learning about the influences the devices can have.

@lalitk Jan felt that the Miyajima design would not benefit his SUT. The ETR-Mono would probably be your best bet for the Zero.

 

 

@worksbau 

Thank you again for sharing your impressions of MSL and Fono Lab SUT. I do believe adding customized SUT’s would optimize performance of both carts. Your post has been most helpful and inspiring. I am few months away from everything coming together singing in perfect harmony. 

"Modernize" the 3160?  The original is barely 10-15 years old. Not much has happened in audio electronics in those years.  In fact, the bipolar transistor that Raul et al use in the MC gain stage is out of production and was not replaced by anything as good or better for the purpose, probably because transistor evolution is not motivated by the design and build of phono stages. To tube-ify it would be an absurd notion. Let me know if you find one for sale in the UK for 1200 GBP.

@lalitk I picked up the Solo that I previously put 200 hours on for my dealer, so I know it well. I had my Zero installed at the same time, so I did a lot of A/Bing. I ran the Solo through a Supratek Cortese LCR high gain phono, and the Zero through the ETR- Mono SUT and Tektron mono MM phono, so it wasn’t a super controlled comparison, but did reveal enough for me to make the switch.

In a nutshell, the Zero sounds wonderful but, to my ears, the Solo edges it out with more detail and air at the upper end. I suspect two reasons for that… fine line stylus vs conical, and the low internal impedance design of the MSL cartridges.

What sealed the deal for me was dipping my toe in the SUT waters recently. My stereo phono had been high gain for a very long time, then I gave a Fonolab Pacto a go with my MSL Signature Platinum and was blown away. I remembered what I liked with Solo so I asked Jan at Fonolab if he could build a custom mono Pacto (1/2 Pacto) for the Solo. He loved the idea, so here I am.

@lewm I have been watching the market over a period of time wondering if one had been exported to the UK. During this time I have seen a few histories for the Essential 3160 being sold, where it has been with a price of US and Canadian Dollars, where it has been $3K and less.

Keep an eye on the Market as a upgrader to the 3180 might just dump the Phon' to get the deposit for the new item.

What caught me out is that certain US Brands in Phonostages and Amp's that are imports to the UK are discovered to be heavily discounted when ending up as sale items in the UK used market, using the US used pricing for the 3160, I suspected the same Phon' discovered in the UK as a used sale would not stretch a budget much more than £1200. Such a price to have access to such a Phon' would suit me just fine. I can then put a face to the name, and learn how much spoken about is actually backed up by the device performance.  I would be left with an interesting option, where I could pass the device on to a EE Friend who specialises in Phonostage designs, to see what could be done to modernise the Phon' and maybe eek from it an end sound more attractive to my wants. I could also ask the same individual to investigate a Valve Circuit to be inserted to see what can be achieved. I could also cut losses and happily sell on as a quick sale, most likely incurring a loss, if all was not with an attraction to my tastes, and use the remuneration of monies to get back on track with other very attractive SS Phon's known to me and proven attractive through mt already experiencing them in use.

Additionally, if a £1.2Kish purchase was enough to steer me away from considering my other options on attractive in use SS Phon's, then I would be better off financially by sticking with the Essential 3160 at an approx' £1.2K option, even though as a design it will be obsolete and superseded by the other designs available today.

 I have direct experiences of hearing Modwright and VAC equipment that are both Amp's and Phon's that were bought in the UK as a used item with a cost that was less than 50% of the used item Value it was seen to be selling for in the US.

Pindac, Please show me where to buy an Essential 3160 for $2500. I see that there was one on US Audiomart for $3K and sold.  I'd actually consider a second unit. They are quite rare, probably more rare than a Vendetta by John Curl.

@pindac

I couldn’t agree with you anymore. It is through our own experiences, we achieve the perfect outcome desirable to our ears and preferences.

@worksbau

Thanks for sharing your experience with Miyajima. I will definitely keep that in mind and share with my dealer. Fono Labs SUT is also on my radar as I did converse with Fono Labs senior engineer. He has been very helpful in answering my questions. If you don’t mind, please do share your experience with MSL Eminent Solo and a Fonolab Pacto.

@lalitk The Essential 3160 as a used item purchase is not a bad proposition to consider.

These are able to be found for sale at approx' 80% decreased in value since the item was originally released, it must be worth a Punt at such monies.

There should not be any monies lost if able to be purchased for approx' $2.5K.   

Lalitk Yes, Raul’s 3160 (which I own) and his current 3180 phonolinepreamp both contain entirely separate and discrete MM and MC stages. The 3160 is the finest SS phono stage I’ve ever heard in my home. And the 3180 is said to be better. Both are dual mono and true balanced designs as well. And as the name implies, a built in balanced linestage is part of the package. So the phonolinepreamps are not “just” a pair of phono stages that differ in gain.

@lalitk When my Vinyl system is up and running, I have readily available, a few TT's even though one is my most preferred. I also have a selection of TA's, with one most preferred as the go to TA with a selection of Cart's readily available mounted in a selection of identical Headshells. 

Additionally, I have Phon's that I have been thoroughly impressed with and a few SUT's.

The above allows for Permutations to be produced which all can impact on the end sound producing changes to the end sound that are detectable.

Permutations have been produced through TT exchanges, TA exchanges , Cart' exchanges, Phon' Swapping, SUT Swapping, Tube Swapping.

The outcome of exchanges having occurred has been that the Sound being produced has remained as a thoroughly enjoyed presentation and really wanted to be lived with. Then the idea will arise to hear a certain Track in a certain known Permutation for the equipment set up, and then the 'What If' develops whist experiencing the Track being replayed.

The point being made, is that it is your time, your investment, your hobby, your stimulus. You do not need to justify to anybody why a new experience of your music being replayed within your home through your system, which has thoroughly impressed has also become desirable to experience it using different electronics as the tools.

From my end it is the expanding of experiences through encountering audio equipment in use, that really assists the enthusiast to discover their preferred place, for the end sound that is to be produced from recorded music.  

If the Gastronome wants to experience their 'Perfect Cote de Boeuf Meal ' accompanied with a different sauce, so be it, no one else will be eating from their plate.     

With respect to your desire to add a Miyajima Zero or Infinity, you should contact Robin Wyatt. He is the distributor and knows them well. They can be tricky to manage ground loop hum. I solved it with a dedicated mono SUT and phono…Miyajima ETR-Mono and a mono (only) Tecktron tube phono that Robin commissioned.

I am currently moving away from a Zero and ETR-Mono in favor of a MSL Eminent Solo and a Fonolab Pacto, custom built for mono. You might look into both for a mono rig instead of a Miyajima.

@lewm

There is more to Lupe design than just Class A gain stages. There may be other phonos taking the similar approach as Lupe but most phono preamplifiers designed both for moving magnet and moving coil operation use one gain stage to amplify MM cartridge output, with a second gain stage daisy-chained to the first in order to provide the additional amplification required by low-output MC cartridges.

The Mola Mola Lupe differs by having two entirely separate Class A gain stages, one designed exclusively for MM cartridges, the second just for MC. Both are fully discrete designs and are followed by an active analogue filter. The filter uses relays to switch capacitance and resistance in and out to achieve the different time constant values and, thereby, EQ curves.

Can you tell me another phono that takes same design approach as Lupe?

I cannot think of any phono stage that does not operate in Class A. It should not be a bragging point, but manufacturers do it anyway.

I just came across Mola Mola Lupe that seems to check all the boxes for me. From technical standpoint, discrete Class A gain stages designed exclusively for MC and MM peaked my interest. And there is IOS app that allows easy controls individual channel phase, mono or stereo output, and the subsonic filter. Not to mention, 4 fully programmable inputs. I am leaning towards Lupe until someone throws a curveball..LOL

Going to get one for audition before Christmas.

 

@honeyooi 

Thank you for your recommendation. 

What Raul says is correct to the best of my knowledge. The first Levinson product was a pre-preamplifier, a small active gain box to boost the output of any newly arrived LOMC cartridge in order to drive a phono stage, at a time when all phono stages were designed for MM or high output MI cartridges, and there may have been a SUT on the market, probably in Japan, but they were rare in the US. I think JC designed that unit, and Mark Levinson marketed it. This was around 1975. The advent of the ML JC1 (I think that was the designation) was timed to coincide with the introduction of Supex cartridges in the US, an early LOMC.

John Curl is highly regarded because of the Vendetta phono stage and for a part in developing the CTC Blowtorch phono stage, neither of which I have ever heard. Both of them are rare and very costly if you can find one. I have heard some of his other stuff. The amplifiers are great. The small signal stuff is meh, in my opinion.

Dear @scar972 : Levinson founded Cello in the mid 80's ( I think ). I had the opportunity to listen his amp Duet and the Audio Suite with its integrated phono stage board ( the AS was a modular design for the customers choice what they need.) and I listened too his equalizer Pallete. Cello made it too speakers but I never listen too and obviously he designed what was and maybe is one of the 3 best ever open reel machines the :  ML-5a ( half inch.Well in its times was considered the ONE the BEST ).

However when he was/still working at Levinson company the " brain designer ", with out dimishining Mark in any way was J.Curl. I still own the 20.6 monobloks based in J.Curl design and I think that some Agon audiophiles remember the Vendetta Research phono stage that JC designed when he left Levinson/Madrigal

company and latter on his Blowtorch pohono stage too.

 

In the electronics today Parasound the JC models were and are J.Curl designs.

R.

 

 

@lalitk try several tube base phono and end up with old Air Tight ATE-2 phono MM with their SUT ATH-1. Been several years now and happy with it. Pair nice with koetsu and Lyra. Check their new Air Tight phono ATE-3011