Recommendations for MM Phono ~ Tube or Solid State

@lalitk When my Vinyl system is up and running, I have readily available, a few TT's even though one is my most preferred. I also have a selection of TA's, with one most preferred as the go to TA with a selection of Cart's readily available mounted in a selection of identical Headshells. 

Additionally, I have Phon's that I have been thoroughly impressed with and a few SUT's.

The above allows for Permutations to be produced which all can impact on the end sound producing changes to the end sound that are detectable.

Permutations have been produced through TT exchanges, TA exchanges , Cart' exchanges, Phon' Swapping, SUT Swapping, Tube Swapping.

The outcome of exchanges having occurred has been that the Sound being produced has remained as a thoroughly enjoyed presentation and really wanted to be lived with. Then the idea will arise to hear a certain Track in a certain known Permutation for the equipment set up, and then the 'What If' develops whist experiencing the Track being replayed.

The point being made, is that it is your time, your investment, your hobby, your stimulus. You do not need to justify to anybody why a new experience of your music being replayed within your home through your system, which has thoroughly impressed has also become desirable to experience it using different electronics as the tools.

From my end it is the expanding of experiences through encountering audio equipment in use, that really assists the enthusiast to discover their preferred place, for the end sound that is to be produced from recorded music.  

If the Gastronome wants to experience their 'Perfect Cote de Boeuf Meal ' accompanied with a different sauce, so be it, no one else will be eating from their plate.     

@lalitk The Essential 3160 as a used item purchase is not a bad proposition to consider.

These are able to be found for sale at approx' 80% decreased in value since the item was originally released, it must be worth a Punt at such monies.

There should not be any monies lost if able to be purchased for approx' $2.5K.   

@lewm I have been watching the market over a period of time wondering if one had been exported to the UK. During this time I have seen a few histories for the Essential 3160 being sold, where it has been with a price of US and Canadian Dollars, where it has been $3K and less.

Keep an eye on the Market as a upgrader to the 3180 might just dump the Phon' to get the deposit for the new item.

What caught me out is that certain US Brands in Phonostages and Amp's that are imports to the UK are discovered to be heavily discounted when ending up as sale items in the UK used market, using the US used pricing for the 3160, I suspected the same Phon' discovered in the UK as a used sale would not stretch a budget much more than £1200. Such a price to have access to such a Phon' would suit me just fine. I can then put a face to the name, and learn how much spoken about is actually backed up by the device performance.  I would be left with an interesting option, where I could pass the device on to a EE Friend who specialises in Phonostage designs, to see what could be done to modernise the Phon' and maybe eek from it an end sound more attractive to my wants. I could also ask the same individual to investigate a Valve Circuit to be inserted to see what can be achieved. I could also cut losses and happily sell on as a quick sale, most likely incurring a loss, if all was not with an attraction to my tastes, and use the remuneration of monies to get back on track with other very attractive SS Phon's known to me and proven attractive through mt already experiencing them in use.

Additionally, if a £1.2Kish purchase was enough to steer me away from considering my other options on attractive in use SS Phon's, then I would be better off financially by sticking with the Essential 3160 at an approx' £1.2K option, even though as a design it will be obsolete and superseded by the other designs available today.

 I have direct experiences of hearing Modwright and VAC equipment that are both Amp's and Phon's that were bought in the UK as a used item with a cost that was less than 50% of the used item Value it was seen to be selling for in the US.

@pindac Stated " I would be better off financially by sticking with the Essential 3160 at an approx’ £1.2K option, even though as a design it will be obsolete and superseded by the other designs available today ".

@lewm stated "The original is barely 10-15 years old" - "the bipolar transistor that Raul et al use in the MC gain stage is out of production"

I have made no secrets on the Audiogon Forum that most of my HiFi System is produced as a Commission Build.

Most of the Designs that have been selected are Bespoke. Certain Electronic Components which have been selected to be used in certain Devices, such as the Tranx’s are ’one off’s produced as Hand Wound Designs.

Amp’s have been as the end design, Voiced to my preferences prior to them being brought home. Amp’s when home over a period of usage have been Tube Rolled with the intention to discover a Voicing that is a personal preference.

Every audio item able to produce sound that I have owned and used as a ’go to’ tool over the past 25+ years will have undergone a process of having it Voiced to suit my personal preferences.

In some cases I have been present as the Voicing was being undertaken. In other cases a very good description was supplied of the expectation of the Work to be undertaken, that was realised by myself as being an option that had an attraction.

In relation to Phonostages, I make it no secret on the ’Gon’, I have made it a secondary hobby to experience many in use, especially in short time periods between each demo’ received.

Such experiences have lead me to forming the view, there are a selection of Designs for Phon’s that share a similar Circuit / Topology are not appealing, the sonic trait from the design has for myself been easily detectable and not wanted.

Such experiences have also lead me to forming the view, there are a selection of designs for Phon’s that to my personal preference have proved to be very attractive. These Designs for a Phon’ are wanted to be continuously experienced and maintained in use. Some are commercial products and some are Self Built designs, that are produced by very competent individuals with EE Skills or Qualified EE’s.

Such experiences leaves one with info that is not so commonly assessed. Where the cost for Phon’s is usually made known or a friendly inquiry will reveal the cost for a particular model. Being privy to such info on costs allows for comparison to be used to assess value for money.

When a BOM (Bill of Materials) for the Phon’s produced as Self Built Designs is discovered to be typically between £500 - £2Kish and these designs depending on cost have been found to sit comfortably in comparisons with Commercial Brand Phon’s costing approx’ £2K - £10K+. It does not take long to work out the Components used in a Commercial Design exclusive of the Phon’s casing, are going to fall somewhere near the £300 - £1K mark.

As I know and share with the EE and Designer of a Commercial Branded Phon’ used for a Demo’, who was commissioned by a Company to produce one of the £10K+ Phon’s, I know the Ball Park on the components BOM being under £1K was the suggestion.

Where I am different to many enthusiast’s of Audio Equipment is that much of what I buy / going to buy, is governed by a BOM + EE Cost and not a retail price.

In relation to Commercial Branded Products there is a need for a substantial depreciation from retail to be able to get it bought for what would be described as close to the BOM for the device.

The Individuals I know who bought into Modwright and VAC are both very adept EE’s, who made the choice for the purchase as their confidence, and knowledge to repair was ’in-house’ and the purchase was a worthwhile Punt. From what I know of the purchase prices, I would strongly suggest these were very close to BOM in their bought value.

There is Speculation in my finding a Essential 3160 surface in the UK, but recently a Modwright has once more surfaced, offered for sale from a different person than the owner that I know. The asking price has started high. In the past five years maybe the Modwright Models have become more desirable as a Brand on the UK ?

What I feel more confident about is that when a Essential 3160 is discovered to be purchased for between £1.2K and $2.5K. At this cost, it will be quite close to the BOM for the product when first produced, this is a method of purchasing more to my liking, I'm sure it has a broader appeal as well.

Any thoughts or opinions shared on any Phon’ as a performer will be taken with a pinch of salt, I know what I like and what I don’t like when it comes to a produced end sound. For myself hearing is everything.

If a trusted EE who has a wealth of experience building Phon’s suggested as a part of the Voicing experience to tune the MM/MC Stage, suggested it was best that the bipolar transistor or any other component is removed, it would go. Such a component is not really worthwhile getting too excited over, the trials be undertaken would be setting the precedent.

Similar happened with my most recent commission built Phon’, the EE was struggling with my want to Voice it differently to their selection for the end sound. I was confident a few component changes would help create a change that would have the potential to move more toward my preferences for the end sound. In the end I got my exchanges and I got my end sound wanted. The EE said the design I had put in place will be a Upgrade option on their choice made for the Base Model.

The Commission Built Phon’ for a period of time was just jaw dropping good, and then the ’what if’ occurs, unavoidable it is. The Later Tube Rolling experiences that were undertaken, discovered Valves that proved to be really capable of bringing the Phon’ out of its shell, it was no longer a Candle under a Bushell.

Phon's are such good devices to develop being overly interested in, there is so much learning about produced sound that can be attained, through learning about the influences the devices can have.

@pindac stated " What caught me out is that certain US Brands in Phonostages and Amp's that are imports to the UK are discovered to be heavily discounted when ending up as sale items in the UK used market, using the US used pricing for the 3160, I suspected the same Phon' discovered in the UK as a used sale would not stretch a budget much more than £1200".

Depreciation is Depreciation, not much in a market place avoids its impact. Much of the depreciation witnessed on a product is seemingly governed by how desirable it is to be owned. I would suggest if a Product plummets in Value over time when it is offered as used sale item, as a product it has not got too much interest attached to it in the Market Place. This seems to be not so different to a New Product becoming Heavily Discounted if the Turnover of sales does not take off as the sales were projected for it.      

Myself, I don't judge a device for its capability to make an Impression based solely on Price of the Device. For myself, a decision made, is based on the function of the finished build and how the experiencing of the end sound has the capability for creating an impression as being attractive and wanted to be maintained.

It is this interest in experiencing the end sound that is able to be produced, that has been the stimulus to encourage myself to travel multiple thousands of miles as round trips to share in listening experiences of a broad range of audio devices. 

After having quite a selection of experiences of being sat in front of Demo's of Commission Designed and Built Devices or Self Built Designs vs Commercially Produced Designs in systems up to £200Kish in Value. I have been able to develop my Experiential Learning to the point where I stand confident in what I class as insights into how a broad range of Audio Equipment is able to function. I have certainly became a not so easy candidate to be swayed by opinion of others.

I am happy to report on the 'Gon' on occasions, a Build for a Audio Device that required a BOM of approx' £2K as a finished and functioning design, that has been more than capable as a design, to sit side by side in comparison with a similar functioning Audio Device that costs close to £50K. I can also happily state, this is not a 'one off experience'. I have been introduced to BOM's for a device that have been to myself attractive to consider, that when heard as the functioning end design, has proved to be more than capable as a performer, when compared to much more expensive commercial designs.

The cost of a device means very little to Myself. The design for the electronics and the end sound able to be produced as a result of the design selected is what really matters to myself.

It is very evident that there are a smallish proportion of  individuals, that are not so Taxing when creating their Business Model that is allowing others to buy into their designs for Audio Devices.

It is also very very evident there is a Business Model from a much larger proportion of another type of individual. That are ready and waiting in the Wings to add a Substantial Tax and even a Stealth Tax to enable an individual to buy into the broader available ranges of this groups Designs.

Some Companies are the Pinnacle of this Marketing Philosophy, where the Business Model is seemingly for, Low Volume Sales, which is used to Justify Substantial High Profit Margins on Products that are a so called unobtanium design that can't be offered from other competing suppliers.

It is almost like these Companies are actually suggesting they are so unique, they are owning the electricity being sent through the devices they supply to be used in a Audio System and no other can get to their special source of electricity. To myself, when the notion is being planted, that  something quite ubiquitous 'is unobtanium elsewhere',  'smoke and mirrors' comes to mind 

The following is a few very recent words from the Owner of darTZeel

"But above all, the race to offer the most expensive product, claiming it’s better, while giving ever larger discounts to end users".

"This trend, though not new, is now rotting the extreme High-End market and is destroying the industry".

" I, Hervé Delétraz, founder and creator of the darTZeel brand, have decided that this business model no longer aligns with my vision of Extreme High End".

  

@lewm stated "I see that there was one on US Audiomart for $3K and sold".

Nothing incorrect in that statement.

As for the follow up Posts looks like the referencing a Phono Model has flung the door open for plenty of very Biased Sales Spiel. Nothing new to be discovered on the 'Gon', this agenda lurking in the corners.  

Another Product was referenced, with a cleverly worded description of a design intent, which is undoubtedly Market Spiel, as the Preface to bringing inro the writing and mentioning the Product the Author has a Vested Interest In.

I’m relaxed.

How abouts, I am involved in the supplying of a New Phonostage that is coming to the Market. This New Model Supersedes an earlier Model which I also had a Vested Interest In.

I very much doubt I'll be getting a Thank You Pindac 

I am open to inquiries, please contact me for further information.

Certainly much more too the point than looking for the opportunities to slip in through the Back Door, to keep finding ways of announcing the Model being referred to,

 

Nothing New is such a reply, the same has been met in the past. 

I see no reason to change my answer. 

Individuals who's designs I reference know my Forum Names and Forums I use. 

Occasionally I am corrected on a content I have posted

I don't remember ever claiming to be EE orientated. 

Individuals who's designs I reference don't piggy back on posts made by myself. Who best to divulge the IP but themselves. 

More importantly by their silence I am not part of a Covert Advertisement Strategy or hoaxed into a Product Shill. 

I stand proud knowing that. 

Funny how the regular references to the Essential 3160 and very speedily follow up references to the Essential 3180 appear in Threads with quite a few hits on the Thread itself.

Strategic Product Placement comes to mind with the help of a friend or two. 

 

There has been speculation in the past on this forum about the individual doing Covert Placement of products they have a Vested Interest In.

I find it very easy to discover within the 'Gon' Product Plugs from the suspected Head of the Sales Team, especially making claims on a selection of occasions the device is comparable to $60K designs.

I also find it quite easy to discover the few who come forward to underpin the shameless promotion, by encouraging the dialogue to expand into further marketing spiel being spewed.

Similar claims are also able to be discovered, where claims made for a Tonearm Design are slipped in as a Covert Placement. Where the spew on these occasions are the claim, the comparative Tonearm to the Model is a model costing $55K. 

As stated for myself " I am not part of a Covert Advertisement Strategy or hoaxed into a Product Shill ". 

"I stand proud knowing that". 

    

There are quite a few years gone by where a pile of damp leaves can be copy/pasted to clearly show where the source of the Smoke comes from. 

The 'tortured metaphor in this case being' There is no Smoke without? '

It is easy to work out the Essential 3180 predecessor. being the Essential 3160 is gone, it is 'dead in the water' and in the current market, has proven to be able to be discovered as a sale item at a substantially deprecated value when compared to the original retail value. An approximation of 80% depreciation is seemingly with accuracy. 

What is very evident is that the mention of the Essential 3160 on the 'Gon', will very speedily be followed by the referencing the Predecessor Essential 3180 by the Sales Person for the product.

Using the various accounts of the volume of sales referred for the 3160, it can be assumed the Gross Sales Figure was aprox' $250 000. I'd be happy to speculate using as a guidance, an offer I had been made in the past, to be a representative for a Audio Product, that $50000 may have been the remuneration for a individual instrumental in the accumulation of sold 3160 items. 

The same percentage or even an increased percentage of the cut of profit, for remuneration for sales achieved, may even be available for Essential 3180. 

Using an interpretation of the history and the currently available evidence for the 3160 when found in the used Market.

There is the strong suggestion a 3180 could share a similar experience as a 3160 as a Marketed Item. 

The 3160/3180 when referenced by the Sales Person, are also purported to be comparative to $60K Phon's of which a few Brands are referenced. Are the $60K Phon's Models to be found for less than $3K in the current used sale item market?? 

As stated "At £1.2K. I would be quite happy to have the experience of the Phon' and put it out for Longterm Loan, enabling the Local HiFi Group to assess it. That would be very very interesting.