"Harder" cartridge recomendation

Yes I should have said that the OP in all of these type threads, has an obligation to announce their final choice!

@analogluvr annoying, I agree, but it happens all the time.

5 years ago, who knows what happened,  I pause even imagining.

Bydlo What ended up happening? Did the Decca provide you with sonic Nirvana?
or any of the others here remember what happened?
I absolutely hate it when you put all the time into reading an old thread and then the OP hasn't followed up and let everyone know how it's turned out!!

Nothing like it Bydlo. Only if home demo of cartridges was a little more of an accepted norm we audiophiles would have spent so much less time trying out too many of them and could listen to music instead. Great going, let us know how you like the Decca.

Pani, ok will keep in mind, thanks. I'll have a chance to try Jubilee directly in my system and I'm tempted to do it :-)

Bydlo, I have another recommendation which I believe is safe in terms of compatibility with your arm and meets the sound signature you are looking for and relatively cheaper, the Dynavector 17D3. I have heard it and currently considering it very seriously. It is fast and alive, with tons of detail and very realistic dynamics. Many people consider it to be the worthy younger sibling of the xv1s, and better than the expensive XX2 (I didnt like the XX2). All you need is a good, well damped and somewhat heavy headshell (something better than the stock perforated headshell).

Fleib, I put it wrong perhaps.
I meant how the Jubilee will work with knife edge-type berings in general. My particular 3012R is 100% ok, recently tested and reported "pristine, like new".

Bydlo,
"The big unknown is it's matching with 3012R...possibly problematic due to loose bearings, but maybe FD-200 damper will help."

Maybe not. If the 3012 has loose bearings, you're ill advised to use it at all and especially with a Decca. A band-aid won't help much. Fix the arm first. You'll be tearing up your records with that arm/cart.

Finally, I've abandoned the FR-7 idea and as per Rahman suggestion will try a Decca Jubilee. The big unknown is it's matching with 3012R...possibly problematic due to loose bearings, but maybe FD-200 damper will help.

OT & apologies, Bydlo:

I wrote, relative to something I read about MM carts being more forgiving through the mid to top end:

"I heard a ("a" = singular, one) cart that rolled off at 18kHz, a veritable festival of resonance, it was a MC with a conical stylus/aluminum cantilever. This is my proof that a MC cart has a limited hf response. I heard a (one) MM cart that, measured, makes 45k without breaking a sweat."
"I now have "faith" in the superior capability of MM carts to reproduce hf signals, it is my postulate that MCs are inferior in this capacity. The difficulty is that postulates defy reason, those who are interested in verification seek broader confirmation."

And: "-not to be described in terms of either generalities or universals."

Nikola, thanks for bringing this to my attention. Mea Culpa, Dover is absolutely correct. I should have phrased it as SOME postulates defy reason.

Now, about Bydlo's question?

Peace,

Nandric, I am equally guilty of this, but if you sold several of your tonearms and cartridges that are not in use and never will be in frequent use, I would wager that the resulting funds might pay for an Ortofon Anna. I know this is true in my case. However, I personally am suffering from a bad case of stylus drag from which I do not have the mental torque to recover.

Nice job on the logical dissection of my term, "blanket statement".

According to Lew I made a 'blanket statement' about 'some' MC cart while according to Dover Timeltelt deed the same the other way round. He made a 'blanket statement'
about the MM carts. Herr Professor can speak for him self, in prose or verse, but I like to explain my own. I am not sure what a 'blanket statement' exactly means but if the
generality is assumed then I need to onderline that there
are two kinds according to the logic of quantification.
The 'general without exception' and the so called 'general
existential'. The last mentioned assume existence: there is some x
such that Fx&Gx. Fx= MC kind and Gx (better than any MM kind). This kind
of statement is true if there is at least one MC of this kind. There are: Olympos, A90, Audio Note,Anna, Universe, FR-fz to name some of the possible candidates. So anyone
who likes MC's more than MM's can choose his own. If I could afford Netrepko I would choose Anna but alas. I can choose from what I own(ed) and know and my choice was the Krell KC 100 , alias Miyabi Standard. But in comparison to
'all MM carts' I own(ed). This to my mind is a particular statement, not a 'blanket one'.

Regards,

He thinks digital has less distortion.

Ironical when digital is a mathematical approximation of
analogue, ie 100% distorted. The argument becomes is the distortion inherent in
digital relevant when asking the question "Is this medium accurate enough for
enjoying music ?".
Or to put the question to digiphiles 11110101010100001010101010101100 ?

Timeltel,
Myself, I dont have a religious preference. I value speed and timing, transparency which in my view derives from resolution and/or removal of resonances. My two favourite cartridges that fulfill this preference are the Decca London Garrot ( MI ) and the Ikeda ( MC ). Both of these cartridges have no conventional cantilever and are demanding of both arm and phono stage. I have also heard excellent sound from Garrot P77 ( Dynamic coil ), Soundsmith SG400 ( Strain gauge ) and Stax ( condensor ) all of which have their different attributes.
I have no issue with the proposition that in many systems MM's will be the optimal choice. I do have an issue if someone makes a blanket statement that MM's are better than MC's.
Frequency response claims are nebulous, when I first heard my Dynavector Nova 13D, it sounded lean in the bass. Then I heard it in a system flat to 13hz - different view entirely.
One point that we should all agree on, that is continually ignored when making cartridge recommendations, is that cartridges that are low compliance or push a lot of energy into the arm should not be used with mediocre arms.

Hello Audpulse, Raul explains his position very well, in his own words, on the " Is vinyl rig only for oldies" thread.

He thinks digital has less distortion.

I've been offered ex-Raul fr7f. This Raul seems a guy who has owned all carts on earth. Is there any way to contact him?

Lewn and others,
Anybody that should ask the question: Raul prefers dogital ? is aking for the wrath of god.
Raul is at the moment preparing to unleash his finds of the goldring G800 and any distraction will Raul to visit the pope and ask for the wrath of god on that individual.
Not having met the man, I can say for sure that Raul does not prefer digital

Raul prefers digital?
This is like finding out that God does not believe in God, which would bother me, if I believed in God.

I honestly don't think that "many" of us here prefer digital. There may be a closeted few who do, but not "many". For me digital is like Muzak, the old system of piping so-called music into elevators and department stores. It's decent background for when I am reading or entertaining non-audiophiles.

I confess, I too always thought that Halcro's room would sound a bit hard and "clinical". But it's his choice, to achieve his own concept of sonic Nirvana. Which is perfectly fine with me.

Regards, Bydso: "Lacta alex est" - The die is cast, forgive me I can't resist.

Out of water, an octopus is an ungainly, flaccid, pulpy mass with stringy tentacles, knobby suckers and bulging eyes. In the water, it is a thing of grace, endowed with fluidity of movement, a mesmerizing blending of coloration and undoubtedly attractive to the eye, to that of a lady octopus at least. As there is no accounting for taste, there are those (barbarians) who eat the innocent cephalopod while reclining in their bowers, an octopus' garden of a different sort. The octopus comes in a variety of "flavors", there is the common, the giant, even a Croatian common. Cartridges, like the octopus, do best in an environment best suited to their requirements.

Cartridges offered to the audiophile come in a variety of configurations Which is preferred is a matter of set and setting. Palate and place give direction to the synthesis encountered in a knowledgable listeners' system, there are those who think the act of (musical) reproduction should bring satisfaction to the participant, B. F Skinner quote: “A piece of music is an experience to be taken by itself.” And: “Going out of style isn't a natural process, but a manipulated change which destroys the beauty of last year's dress in order to make it worthless.” I believe MC carts are currently in vogue?

Carts, blind men & the religious experience. The three blind men raised their hands & felt an elephant. One the trunk, another a leg, the third the pachyderm's side. "The elephant is like a snake", said one. "A log" said the second. "Like a wall", opined the third. I heard a cart that rolled off at 18kHz, a veritable festival of resonance, it was a MC with a conical stylus/aluminum cantilever. This is my proof that a MC cart has a limited hf response. I heard a MM cart that, measured, makes 45k without breaking a sweat.

I now have "faith" in the superior capability of MM carts to reproduce hf signals, it is my postulate that MCs are inferior in this capacity. The difficulty is in that postulates defy reason, those who are interested in verification seek broader confirmation. Those who would verify through measurement or are limited by an impression derived from an inadequate sampling or optimization forget that purity and perfection is not to be described in terms of either generalities or universals. Context and point of apprehension are relative.

Although some are willing to sacrifice MM carts on the alter of MC religion, others are more eclectic in their devotions. If you've not considered an MM alternative and open to the suggestion, you might visit Raul's review of the AT20SS.

Peace,

Acman, AFAIK, "Travisty" does = "T_bone". They are the same guy, who lived in Tokyo and then moved to HK about a year ago. I believe he used "T_bone" on Audiogon and "Travisty" on AA.

What I intended to convey is that there is a second person who uses "Tbone" (no underscore in between T and bone), on AA or here. So far as I know, this is a different person entirely. Travis was cool and a great source of information on vintage direct-drive tt's. Plus, he had access to the only remaining Pioneer Exclusive P3, P3a, and P10 service center in the world, located in Tokyo. They still have parts to rebuild the suspensions, etc. Thankfully, my craziness has subsided enough that I am no longer hungry for one of those beasts. Four turntables seems to be enough for me. Gosh, I am a reasonable average shmo. Just ask my wife.

Hi Nandric, true, for some our hobby is a religious experience. I always thought the use of stone was to accentuate the high's when offering sacrificial lambs...

Dear Dover, Have you ever seen an altar made from acoustic
materials? There is an obvious preference for exotic marble
kinds or granite. And, you know, those are also designed by
architects...Why should our own be less?

Halcro, would you like to share the details of the "magical" cartridge ?

Hi Halcro - which 3-4 would you recommend for hi ? low ? Would be interested to know. Do any of your top ones do both ? Cheers.

Halcro, thank you. I dont think you are wrong. We all hear differently, and component choice is made in context of existing system/room/preferences.
Our systems may not be that far apart in reality. We agree on digital, I can only listen to simple music on digital.
I remember the story in TAS years ago. Some guy complained to the car manufacturer ( Buick or Pontiac from memory ) that his car didn't like chocolate ice cream, that it always broke down when he bought chocolate ice cream. Letter did the rounds at the office until one engineer decided that he would follow it up. The family had a weekly treat of taking the kids down to the store on a Saturday night and getting ice cream. Turned out that the chocolate ice cream was at the front of store, the other flavours were located at the rear. Whenever they bought chocolate ice cream, because of the short time frame in and out the car was getting vapour lock in the carburettor.

Dover,
I feel you misunderstand the reasons for my preference for MMs over MCs?
I do not hear an abundance of high frequency exaggeration in MCs.
I have at least 3 or 4 MM cartridges which give a greater and more detailed extension into the upper frequencies than any LOMC cartridges I have heard in my system.
I also have an equal number of MM cartridges which can plumb the depths of bass with greater authority and better control than any of the LOMCs I have heard in my system.
There is one magical cartridge (the Professor knows it)......which performs both these feats (and more) at the same time!
Brightness has never been a problem in my system or listening room unless the pressing or cartridge presents as such.

Dover,
Apology accepted. Like Nandric I too often enjoy your humour and value most of your contributions.
I don't believe the glass table is accountable for my preference for MM cartridges?
I do think that I hear differently to most others.......and I am definitely in the minority with almost all of my peers in this preference so I have no problems in accepting that I am wrong.
I still can't listen seriously to digital and yet most (including Raul) either prefer it to analogue......or at least happily listen in equal measures?
This makes our hobby very hard to predict from an 'objective' point of view and making absolute judgments is fraught with danger?

Halcro, I'll apologise, my 1st post could have been better phrased.
Yes, I do believe you are wrong if you prefer the coffee table in. In my experience large coffee tables in front of the listening chair generally "cut off" bottom end flow and air, literally truncate the bottom portion of the sound stage. Glass coffee tables tend to bounce high frequencies around and I always remove them. These are perhaps the some of the reasons why I gravitate to LOMC's, whilst you prefer MM's.

Nandric, thanks for the feedback. I do have German ancestry via Austria ( one of my forbears was given gold by the Habsburgs to travel the world to return a favour, he settled in New Zealand ) we may have a similar taste in humour.

In defence of Dover I must confess to like his kind of humor. He should however, as is advisable reg. the Germans among us, say in advance that he is joking. If he wants to
stay out of trouble that is.

Dover,
Yes.....polished stone and glass are reflective materials.
Every auditorium, performance space and listening room requires a blend of reflective and absorptive materials.
For drama.....the requirement for reflective surfaces to absorptive is different than for the performance of large scale orchestral works and this can be calculated quite accurately by acoustic engineers.
In my listening space....I have a 3.3mx3.5m heavily texture wool rug occupying 53% of the floor area. Semi-absortive cushioned furniture occupies another 20% of the floor area.
The wall behind the speakers is masonry and thus, generally reflective whilst one side wall is acoustic plasterboard with 50mm fibreglass insulation in the studwork on top of solid masonry. The rear wall is uninsulated plasterboard allowing for reflection of higher frequencies whilst allowing mid to low frequencies to pass through.
The one wall of thin(6mm) glass....allows the reflection of higher frequencies whilst passing all lower frequencies. The two sliding glass panels allow me to hear the effects of reflection by opening half the wall in a variety of infinite proportions.
There is a flat plasterboard soffit 2.7metre high(9ft) directly over the speakers and then a 5.7metre(19ft) cathedral ceiling which slopes down to the listening position.
Do you believe you can estimate what this room sounds like?
Oh.....and I've listened with the glass coffee table in and out and much prefer it in!
Am I wrong?

Halcro - you've over reacted. I have not criticised your system or equipment choice. You probably have an excellent system.
I have suggested that from my years of experience, including importing and installing high end equipment in many differing environments, that the hard reflective surfaces in your room would suggest that the environment may be more susceptible to mid to high frequency excitement. If this is the case it would influence your component choices and preferences. Do you disagree that stone and glass are reflective, particularly in the mid to upper frequencies.

I would expect that this environment would be very unforgiving of any forwardness in the mid to top end.

Dover,
Only a fool or a genius would believe he can predict the sound of an ‘unheard’ system by ‘expectation’?
From your history of postings on this Forum……I don’t believe you’re a genius?
Most intelligent contributors here, never criticise another’s system yet you seem to enjoy doing exactly that?

You have absolutely no idea what my speakers sound like as they are not commercial products and if you had any knowledge of acoustics…..you would know that the ‘volume’ of a space is a more determining factor than the ‘area’?
The ‘volume’ of my listening space is 90 cubic metres(3,178 cu.ft) which is equivalent to a 20x20x8ft listening room but in my experience…….a smaller floor area with a higher ceiling than 8ft generally sounds better?

I would venture that you have never heard a ‘nude’ Victor TT-101 turntable with any of the arms or cartridges I have…..yet you presume to ‘predict’ the sound of such a set-up?

Whilst you carefully avoid listing your own ‘System’ with photos of your listening room and set-up…..your bombastic self-anointed ‘expert’ status on this Forum is rather tiresome.

in defense of Henry, I am sure he means that among cartridges he owns or has heard in his system, he prefers one or more MMs to any of the MCs. This does not rule out the proposition that there is a superior MC somewhere in the universe.

It also does not rule out the proposition that H's system is so coloured, bleached out or grainy that in that particular system MM's are a better match as they tend to be more forgiving through the mid to top end. Whilst we do not want to bag other systems and I respect H's input into the forums, we must look at context. The system in question is located in a small room with hard stone floors, a massive glass coffee table in front of the listening position and speakers jammed into the corners. I would expect that this environment would be very unforgiving of any forwardness in the mid to top end.

Hello Lewm, I thought because "Travisty" was from Tokyo that it was T_bone. I am sorry if I was incorrect and they are different people.

The post from T_bone (Travis) was from Bydlo on 7/30.

Dear Lew, My 'blanket statement' was made in the context of
my own experience so no 'universal statement' was made in
the logical sense . My was made by induction from a limited number of carts that I own while any 'universal statement' should be made without such a restriction. In this unrestricted sense only can an universal statement be treated as a premisse for deductions. Syntax and Thuchan were my 'sources' for the Miyabi . The 'Standard' version is so called, I assume, to discriminate from 47 (plastic)
version. I hope Syntax will help his Balkan friend out from this precarious situation? Where Thuchan is I have no idea at present. But if he still pretend to have good ears
he may accompany Syntax by a possible explanation.

Regards,

Can anyone direct me to the post by T_bone (Travis)? He and I were in direct email contact for a couple of years. Last year, he told me he was moving to Hong Kong from Tokyo. I was in touch with him during the moving process, and now he seems to have dropped off the face of the earth. For the past several months or maybe a year, I have had zero response from him, nor has he been posting either here or on Audio Asylum. If the post about 3012 + Mk7 is old, it probably would not help to find him. There is another guy who calls himself Tbone, without the underscore. On one or the other site, he used "Travisty".

Nandric, "some LOMC's are better than whatever MM cart there are".

Would you let anyone else get away with such a permeable blanket statement? I think not. Anyway, in defense of Henry, I am sure he means that among cartridges he owns or has heard in his system, he prefers one or more MMs to any of the MCs. This does not rule out the proposition that there is a superior MC somewhere in the universe. In defense of myself, I never made any statement at all regarding the universal superiority of MM/MI cartridges (or if I did, I was insincere). Still, my question is: has anyone compared Technics 100C MkIV to FR Mk7f? I am sure Raul has done this comparison and would likely go for the Technics.

On a serious note, what is "Takeda's Miyabe Standard"? In the US, I do not recall that there is a Miyabe referred to as "Standard". You must have come upon it recently, since you were heretofore immersed in the MM world.

While there are different 'series' of the SME 3012 version one can always find extra weights on ebay.uk. So whatever of Ortofon SPU carts or the FR-7 kinds , the cart weight should cause no problem.
My advice would be: buy the cheapest FR-7 you can find and post this cart to Axel and ask for the line contact stylus pressure fitted in the (new) aluminum cantilever. To 'retip' an old FR-7 means to glue whatever stylus in the existing cantilever. Whatever glue between the stylus and the cantilever is a suboptimal solution.

Hello Bydlo,

Since T-bone was living in Japan and his real name is Travis ........

BTW, if T-bone says it's a good combo, it is. Maybe he will see your question and respond.

Good luck in your search!

Ok, it seems that there would be a precedence on 3012R + FR-7: A fellow called T_bone mentioned that

"I have not found an FR-7fz, but I am happily using an FR-7f on an SME long arm now. "

Would be interesting to learn what longer SME he used/uses and what the combo was able to offer.

Also someone on hifiwigwam, post #287

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?19878-T-Table-picture-thread/page15

and the same person on AA

http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=vinyl&n=964798&highlight=SME+3012&search_url=%2Fcgi%2Fsearch.mpl%3Fforum%3Dtubes%26searchtext%3D302b

So at least some people did try it...

Dear Bydlo, Your are obviously a Kantian with your a priori
knowledge about dances and carts. No need btw to
insult Serbian farmers because of me. Besides it is some kind of
a permanent illusion that to pay more for whatever item
iply 'better', 'security'... or a smart decision.

What? I'm not attacked and you started to talk +/- about the subject? I'm surprised!

Halcro, thanks for the input, both on ZYX comparison and pointing to Topclass. I understand that a peace of mind costs, unlike buying on E...y, so if Topclass is trustworthy, that would solve my objections on cart condition. I was trying to find some info on 3012R-FR7 eventual match, but with no success, so if anyone has any experience please speak up. Also, physical connection of this long cart to the arm seems non-trivial. What is the connector type?

Pani -is it the same Yamamoto as the one making teflon tube sockets?

As for Michele Pffeifer underwear, Nandric, ti glupy seljak, I know how to use "search" on E...y....and if you dance like you discuss then I do not want to be in 10km radius from where you dance :P

Dear Lew, your capabilities are incredible. Like Diogenes
to Alexander I can only say: 'move a little bit out of the son'.
BTW I am sorry for you and Halcro but some LOMC's are better than whatever MM cart there are. Among those I rank Takedas's Miyabi Standard as the best I know. Deed you btw know that the Serbians are not only the 'born warriors' but
also the 'born dancers'? In this sense the qualification 'primabalerina' can be used by Bydldo.

Nandric, Who said I can't dance? Baryshnikov?

I have been wondering how those few "in the know" would compare the other Holy Grail of no longer available cartridges, the Technics 100C MkIV, to the Mk7f. But that is OT, and I apologize for bringing it up.

Halcro, Top Class want ~$2000US for that Mk7f. More than most eBay prices. But if it's as good as you say, after the massage from Axel, then surely it is worth it when one considers the cost of any modern TOTL MC. On the other hand, you did infer that your true current favorites are MM types, which likely cost a lot less.

Dear Lew, 'somebody' made a category error. You, as singer,
may be called 'Prima donna' while your dancing capability
is totally unknown.

Pani,
Leaving aside my preferred MM cartridges and comparing my FR-7f (Axel modified) to the 10 or 11 LOMCs I have heard in my system.......I would say that the FR-7f is my 'go-to' cartridge when I wish to listen to a MC.

For 6 or 7 years.......the ZYX UNIverse was my favourite LOMC (and I'm on my 3rd one).
The UNIverse has few faults and one doesn't tend to segregate its sound into the famous three divisions of Bass, Midrange and Treble when listening to it, such is its neutrality.
Above and beyond this near perfect frequency response......is the UNIverse's ability (rare amongst any cartridges)......to emotionally connect to the music hidden deep within the vinyl grooves.
The Dynavector XV1s is a good cartridge IMO......but it doesn't posses the neutrality nor the purity of the UNIverse. Nor does it connect as deeply with the emotion of the music. But it can sometimes impress by deceit?

The FR-7f(Axel modified) sounds almost identical to the UNIverse with just a hint more excitement and high-frequency extension.
Whilst its soundstage can be wide.....there is a slight lack of depth if that is important to you?
And its bass.....whilst all there....is not as tight or controlled as some other cartridges.
The original FR-7f with the conical stylus (which I had before the Axel modification)....had all the sonic characteristics described above but without the ultimate finesse, extension and clarity.
This put it....in my ranking....just behind the UNIverse whilst the Axel modification places it just ahead of the UNIverse in my system.

With an output of just .18mv.....you need a phono stage with plenty of gain and those who prefer their valves can reach Nirvana with an appropriate SUT.
A heavy cartridge with low compliance.......the FR-7 series requires a high-mass ultra-rigid arm with perfect bearings and negligible friction.

Beloved by those German and Japanese audiophiles in the know......some would say that with the FR-7f, one can close the chapter on phono cartridges?

I however....have heard the celestial sounds from the mountain peak and consequently maintain an open book?

Pani, click on 'search' and write FR-7 or search for the
'Fidelity Research cartiridge' thread.

Halcro, Syntax..others, can someone please describe the sound signature of these high end FR cartridges ? How do they compare to the current Lyras and ZYX ? Any opinions ?

Bydlo,
An FR-7f is for sale from Tommy at TopClass Audio who sells only the best of items and checks them all out.
This cartridge has been checked by Ikeda himself who states it is in excellent condition.
Unfortunately....you must pay for this consideration?
FR-7f