Quack System Upgrades
Ok, so what's the most ridiculous "SNAKE OIL" upgrade you have come across?
Let the fun begin HAHAHA :) :)
dlcockrum 01-01-2017 12:51pm Good advice here IMO and cheap/free to try, excepting #6: http://shunmook.com/userinfo/Tips%20for%20the%20Crazed%20Shun%20Mook%20Users.pdf Nothing against Shun Mook but those suggestions are SO cliche and dated. One imagines they posted them so folks wouldn’t think them so strange. Their best products? The Original Cable Jacket and the enigmatic Mpingo disc. I met the two Shun Mook dudes back at CES ’97 when I was exhibiting with Mapleshade. Not sure if they noticed my Mpingo disc knock-off sitting on the floor. #6 is an interesting suggestion, if only becasue of the whole can of worms it opens up. |
Good advice here IMO and cheap/free to try, excepting #6: http://shunmook.com/userinfo/Tips%20for%20the%20Crazed%20Shun%20Mook%20Users.pdf Dave |
gdhal, Based on listening to what? I've bent over backwards to provide YOU answers to your questions, now, you give a one phrase answer that, I guess should be sufficient? A while back, you remarked, that upon (your) consideration of my answer to your question...you..(upon, your own view, deemed it proper to respond to my post that made you feel good enough about yourself to even think about whether or not your effort in responding to my sub-par question would be worthy? You are the essence of "the uppity part of this forum I resent!" Why are you even posting here?/?????????????? |
I will fess up and admit...I have never heard the Shun Mook in action, nor compared a disc with and without it. However...reason, logic and a little bit of common sense must come into play here even without listening first. It’s not a matter of whether one can afford it if he/she can also afford a continuum. It’s kind of about if you are getting your money’s worth. However, something is worth whatever one is willing to pay for it. I’m torn...... I’m sure it works, but $3,200? I doubt it makes THAT much difference over my HRS and Project clamps. Reason, logic and common sense folks.... |
Never tried these products but you have to admit that they went the distance on testing and measurement: http://shunmook.com/explained/HK-TN-0388-%20Shun%20Mook%20Mpingo%20Discs%20Acoustic%20Test%20-LH.pdf Dave |
devilboy No comments about the Shun Mook record clamp at $3,200? ’This extra heavy century old ebony root which were immersed in the swamps of Africa has a unique power that no other wood possesses" Really?.......rreeaallyy? Yes, really. Reaaaallly! Even a single Mpingo disc will blow your mind. Besides, if you have a $100K Continuum Caliburn or Walker turntable what’s another $3200? If you really want to get your panties in a twist check out the $8,000 power strip. |
My Question: Has anyone tried any of the Jack Bybee products? Are they snake oil? Never tried em but I have it on good authority they aren’t snake oil. Jack used to work in the black world, navy signals if memory serves. His major in school was quantum physics, which is interesting if only because they were actually teaching that subject 60 years ago. have a nice new year |
@bcowen no, I haven't listened to a cable before and then after being "cooked". I get what you and others are saying about the substantial difference. My point hasn't been addressed, however, which is on what basis are you/anyone else saying that the substantial difference is an "improvement" as in more accurate reproduction of the source? If you mean to say it is your preference, that is perfectly fine/acceptable. If something else, then I reiterate that by all means please produce a data spec sheet of the particular cable, let's compare it to https://www.belden.com/techdatas/english/5T00UP.pdf and review what elements are "better". |
@bcowen That's great advice!! Thanks so much for the tip. I had some specially tele-transported to me ( as I was far to impatient to wait for normal shipping) and will be applying it tonight, as per your great instructions. I am so anxious to give this a go with my entire catalogue of Bay City Rollers 8 tracks, that I feel like a kid before X-Mass !!!! |
bcowen @gdhal @astro58go, yes, I do not believe in cable burn-in based on listening. Have you ever listened to a cable, new or old, that's spent a couple days on a cable cooker, like an Audiodharma? To each his own, and I'm not suggesting that what you hear is invalid, just that to my ears the difference between a fully conditioned cable and one that isn't is rather substantial. Excellent point! Ditto cryogenics. Which is why almost all high end cable manufacturers got hip a long time ago and Cryo their cables. Can't compete otherwise. Duh! |
@gdhal @astro58go, yes, I do not believe in cable burn-in based on listening.Have you ever listened to a cable, new or old, that's spent a couple days on a cable cooker, like an Audiodharma? To each his own, and I'm not suggesting that what you hear is invalid, just that to my ears the difference between a fully conditioned cable and one that isn't is rather substantial. |
@mikethehunterguy: "
A good whisky is the best tweak ever." I disagree. Now that I remember, the best tweak I ever heard was joint of some mystery pot that a biker tipped me in the late '60s. When I smoked it in my room and put Led Zep II on my cheap Magnavox all-in-one it was like a this divine music was filling the whole world! I turned the volume to max, took the removable speakers off the unit, put them about 2 feet apart and placed my head between them. Never heard anything as good before or since. Never met that biker again either, drat! That is probably how I got hooked on this hobby. They say it's a gateway drug. |
I don't have any funny stuff today. I do have some observations and questions. I used to think that cable break-in was a fairy tale. Now I'm not so sure. I got a new phono cable a few months ago. Not expensive; but made with very different specs than many. Smaller gauge, silver-coated POCC, low capacitance, etc. I did a lot of A-B comparisons when I got it and came to the conclusion that it made little difference with my MM cartridge; but a nice improvement in spacing. definition and bass control on the MC. A few months later, I put the MM back in the system for a while and heard more bass from it than ever before....I'm 85% sure. I bought a pair of WireWorld Luna 7 interconnects, their cheapest. They replaced the old Audioquest AlphaSnake on my Oppo BDP-95. They seemed to widen the soundstage and clarify the treble a noticeable amount. I let them break-in for about 30 hours and did another A-B. Now I can clearly detect that they have raised the soundstage to eye-level, whereas the snakes had it almost knee-level. I think I'll try a pair of their Oasis for my phonostage-to-pre connection. My Question: Has anyone tried any of the Jack Bybee products? Are they snake oil? As soon as I have some funny stuff, I'll post. How about this one: How many NJ politicians does it take to change a lightbulb? V V V V None. They have to call a guard. |
Geoffkait:"Huh? If everyone at the demo was transfixed wouldn’t that indicate placing colored paper under amps and around the demo room was uh, effective? Oh, you’re probably one of those group hypnosis or placebo effect advocates. Never mind." to which ivanj replied, "I am educated about some things but am not a mind reader. I have no idea why these people were attending. Perhaps it was the campaign in some of the mags previous about this magic stuff. There are many reason why people could be "transfixed" - that’s the skill of a grifter or a carnie, for one. I happened to go into the room because it was silent, a great relief from the racket elsewhere, and discovered I had "gone through the Looking Glass."" At at least they were patient. Then ivanj wrote, "There are plenty in high end where a little knowledge and a big wallet can lead to turn-in-itis. Twas ever thus with expensive man-hobbies. How many shoes did Imelda Marcos have?" I take it Imelda Marcos was a man. then ivanj wrote, "Or my friend, as Sheryl Crow sings, they were there "...to see what all the fuss was about." Suggest you read some books by Nathaneal West." I found out what all the fuss was about. That would make me a bigger skeptic than you, no? A real skeptic investigates whenever there’s a big fuss. have a nice new year |
geoffkait, "Huh? If everyone at the demo was transfixed wouldn’t that indicate placing colored paper under amps and around the demo room was uh, effective? Oh, you’re probably one of those group hypnosis or placebo effect advocates. Never mind." I am educated about some things but am not a mind reader. I have no idea why these people were attending. Perhaps it was the campaign in some of the mags previous about this magic stuff. There are many reason why people could be "transfixed" - that's the skill of a grifter or a carnie, for one. I happened to go into the room because it was silent, a great relief from the racket elsewhere, and discovered I had "gone through the Looking Glass." There are plenty in high end where a little knowledge and a big wallet can lead to turn-in-itis. Twas ever thus with expensive man-hobbies. How many shoes did Imelda Marcos have? Or my friend, as Sheryl Crow sings, they were there "...to see what all the fuss was about." Suggest you read some books by Nathaneal West. |
BJC is a company that spends their workday doing nothing but making cables. It was mentioned above that they will not state that they believe in cable burn in or wire directionality. One explanation may be that they don't want to make representations that they cannot prove by scientific fact and choose to just keep silent on the subject. I like their Canare 4S11 (Star Quad cable, 14 AWG) for speaker cable. Of course its not really theirs, its bulk wire they terminate. I don't know how many high end cable retailers actually make (manufacture and draw) their own wire. |
gdhal, One last thing... you stated you do not believe in cable "burn-in". Is this conclusion based upon listening? I may not be educated in all things electrical ... but I do spend the time and money on things that intrigue me so I can (listen) and evaluate them for myself. I believe that personal experience is (in audio reproduction) THE most valuable experience there can be. Cheers! |
gdhal, All I was trying to convey is, IME, wire directionality is easily heard in the cables I've used by the same manufacturers that hold this position. I wrote at some point in this conversation that BLC doesn't believe in this. Why? Because of my email conversations with them. This seems to be true based upon (my) experience that I wrote about above. BJC may be correct regarding (their own) cables. From my conversations with them, they believe this to be true throughout the industry. It just doesn't hold true to my experience with the many other cable brands I've personally used and own. |
@crazyeddy OK, Geoff, I checked out the Silver Rainbow Foil. This must work for sure, but I need instructions (which are not given) on where to apply to all my prized Audiophile 8 tracks !!!! Apply it directly over the top of the tape head in the player, of course. Guaranteed to reduce the noise floor beyond your wildest imagination. :) |
astro58go, all good. Sorry for any misunderstanding. I believe I already responded to your original post in this thread, dated 12-29-2016 10:57, on 2-29-2016 12:48pm. I was trying to convey I wasn't entirely sure what you meant. I took it to mean you do believe in speaker wire cable directionality and BJC is wrong in their position on the matter. Am I misunderstanding? Somewhat related, here's yet another recently and lively discussion on the forum. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/who-thinks-5k-speaker-cable-really-better-than-generic-14awg-... |
dimora, "Cable elevators. Pure snake oil. I would use them for aesthetic purposes and as a conversation piece; nothing more". Where do I start?.... Do you agree that vibration has an/any affect on audio performance? Do you agree that the delicate audio signal is affected by vibration/resonance? If you'd consider using them as a conversation piece...why not to improve your listening experience? I know I'm going to regret this..... |
gdhal, I responded to this thread entitled "Quack System Upgrades" because others had mentioned BJC in their response to the thread. I went out of my way to say the opposite if you'll re-read my initial post. Positive differences can only be determined by one in one's own system and listening preferences. I posted mine. |
@astro58go Your reply is well articulated and more than fair enough to warrant a response. Thanks for that, as some others on the forum immediately take offense and can never "agree to disagree". Please allow me to answer your points/questions. No, I am not an electrical engineer. However, I did study electrical engineering at Thomas Edison Technical/Vocational high school for four years and as a general rule tend to give more "weight" to all things that can be explained scientifically/objectively as opposed to opinions/subjectively. As you indicate "listening is truth" and this is the basis of your assertion regarding cable performance, you certainly are entitled in that case to claim one is "better" than another. Whatever your preference and pragmatic findings, so be it. Nevertheless, there is nothing "quack" about BJC, because, among other things, they do not claim (in writing) their cable sounds or is better than anyone else's. The merely point out that resistance is by far the most dominant factor. I personally do not believe in cable "burn-in". I do believe if you run more current through it than it is rated to handle, you can/will notice something burning. As for directionality, there are numerous threads on the forum about this. One recent thread https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/interconnects-some-have-directional-indicatorss-why? suggests this could be the result of one end being shielded to ground. However, this is something that could apply to RCA interconnects, not speaker wire. There is (or should be) no directionality where speaker wire is concerned. But again, given the "positive sonic differences" you are hearing, by all means use whatever you prefer. I believe I also pointed out elsewhere in this thread that while "differences" can be heard, I simply question whether or not they are truly "positive". |
Cable elevators. Pure snake oil. I would use them for aesthetic purposes and as a conversation piece; nothing more. Blue Jeans cable are a great product. Canare, Belden and Canare are all studio grade(and used in studios). BJC makes no wild snake oil claims. I have yet to hear a difference between twisted-pair speaker wires of the same gauge. I find it funny that someone will spend thousands on an interconnect that feeds an RCA jack that then uses bulk copper wire inside the component from the jack to the innerds. If you upgrade your internal wiring I'll give partial tweeker credit to you. I also find it funny that people spend big money on digital interconnects. It's 1's and 0's, folks...as long as they arrive intact, a 99 cent cable is as good as a $10,000 digital cable. My free Comcast HDMI cable performs as well as a price-no-object cable on my 4K HDTV. Digital Audio is no different. 1's and 0's... im a big fan of blind listening evaluations. My wife and I do them all the time when evaluating choices. Speakers, pre-amps (tube vs. SS) and phono stages all have very audible differences to my ears. Cables? Meh...just buy proper gauge twisted speaker wire and decent gauge analog interconnects and call it good. Lampcord works fine in a pinch. |
ivanj Worst I’ve seen follows. Some years ago: How about the audio show where these wizards, you know "fung shue" (sp) patchouli type folks, who were putting little pieces of paper, some even different colors and shapes under amps, around the demo room, and everyone was transfixed. I think this came out of the UK; if I not I apologize to my British friends. Does anyone remember that grift? Huh? If everyone at the demo was transfixed wouldn’t that indicate placing colored paper under amps and around the demo room was uh, effective? Oh, you’re probably one of those group hypnosis or placebo effect advocates. Never mind. Note to self: on a thread about Quack System Upgrades and Snake Oil it’s kind of bizarre that noone has mentioned PWB (Peter Belt) stuff up until now. E.g., the Red X Pen, the Quantum Clip, Cream Electret and Silver Rainbow Foil, last two on Stereophile’s recommended components list for a few years. |
gdhal: I base my comments on listening. (Are you an electrical engineer? I ask because the one's I've met who happen to be audiophiles don't believe in anything that cannot be measured). By the way, BJC doesn't believe that burn-in makes a difference either. These things most likely are true with their cables. (I tried their cables in both directions, theirs did not make a difference here. Others I have do and the manufacturer specifies this as well. Regarding burn-in of BJC, I did notice a lack of grain after about 1 & 1/2 hours). When I bought my latest tt, VPI Classic 3 SE Sig, I felt the need to kind of start over with evaluating cables in my system. I started with the BJC. I wired my entire system with it. While it was acceptable, I found them lacking in transparency, openness etc... I then began inserting my other well heard cables into the mix just on my front end. The positive sonic differences were easily heard. One great example of this is my Morrow Audio PH-6. It sounds horrible in the opposite direction than what is recommended by Morrow. Another... I bought a new Shunyata Taipan power cord years ago, the dealer said it would take 300 hours to break in... he was right on the money! Listening is truth. |
Worst I've seen follows. Some years ago: How about the audio show where these wizards, you know "fung shue" (sp) patchouli type folks, who were putting little pieces of paper, some even different colors and shapes under amps, around the demo room, and everyone was transfixed. I think this came out of the UK; if I not I apologize to my British friends. Does anyone remember that grift? |
@astro58go I take your statement: "They don't believe in cable directionality making a sonic difference. IME, this doesn't hold water." to mean you do believe in speaker wire cable directionality and BJC is wrong in their position on the matter. In any case, could you provide the data sheet of whatever reference speaker cable you consider better than the Belden 10 gauge sold by BJC, and specify what in particular is better about it? |
jetter "They don’t believe in cable directionality making a sonic difference. IME, this doesn’t hold water." You may not think their wire achieves the proper status for your system, but regarding the cable directionality issue, I would counter that every cable providing electricity and/or signals of any kind in your life, including your stereo components, were installed without regard to directionality, except probably your speaker cable and interconnects (and fuses if you follow the SR protocol). yup, that’s the problem in a nutshell. Nobody pays attention to wire directionality for almost everything. Assuming they’ve even heard of it. Also, I’m pretty sure all aftermarket fuse companies are now on board the whole fuse directionality train. How many aftermarket fuse companies are there now? Gotta be ten. Anyway, all the stock off the shelf fuses have directional protocols too. Those manufacturers just didn't get the memo yet. |
"They don't believe in cable directionality making a sonic difference. IME, this doesn't hold water." You may not think their wire achieves the proper status for your system, but regarding the cable directionality issue, I would counter that every cable providing electricity and/or signals of any kind in your life, including your stereo components, were installed without regard to directionality, except probably your speaker cable and interconnects (and fuses if you follow the SR protocol). |
gdhal: IME, BJC doesn't make wild claims. They don't believe in cable directionality making a sonic difference. IME, this doesn't hold water. Their cables are a good starting point but do not achieve anywhere near a status of prominence in a reference system. BJC are not a "Quack System Upgrade", just not worthy of a great system. Cheers |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2F8kRvjhTY Jetter, Are you the guy in black or the kid with the lemons? Dave |
