Just to follow up. Installed only one outlet. It was a pleasant upgrade. It was a free upgrade in exchange for a favor.. but after now hearing the difference.. I would of gladly payed for it.
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Well, you do the best you can! Good clean power has made a big differerence in how deeply quiet the background is for my audio experience. I use 3 separate dedicated lines for digital and analog power and source. The power in our little village almost seems like an afterthought on the grid - inconsistent, noisy, and frequently going out. After trying all sorts of conditioners (the best to my ears was non-regenerating Sound Application), I decided to go to dedicated lines which are isolated and conditioned in the basement - just to get the box/cable out of the living space and because the big old industrial conditioner I settle on hums a bit. I have a 30A line to a subpanel with a noise suppressor/line conditioner in between. The lines are all on the same leg/side/phase. I followed some white papers from Vince Galbo (Plinius/MSB) to the extent I could anyway with some other tweaks along the way. I'm happy with the result. It's outlined on my system page here on Agon. I'm happy to share the white papers if you're interested. |
Jea48, he did two separate runs of Romex. These are not directly across from each other as he did them about a year apart. Once I did the audio I decided later at a dealers advice to add the second circuit. And they end up on separate walls due to the room layout. thanks Lowrider, my thoughts exactly. And the plus is I got to buy two AC conditioners. But if I move I will do it again, and hopefully while the house is being built so I can keep the two runs of romex apart from each other as well as the rest of the runs for the house. I have been told that is beneficial although I don’t think I will ever move. I do wonder if a 3rd circuit for digital would help, but no plans to do it in this house. |
@theo Both Line 1 (L1) and Line 2 (L2) alternate down each side of the panel. That’s how 240V load(s) can be fed from a 2 pole breaker. Example: Left side... Right Side L1 .................. L1 L2 .................. L2 L1 .................. L1 L2 .................. L2 With that said the electrician may very well have fed the two 120V branch circuits from both Line 1 and Line 2. Easy way to check is with a multimeter. If both the circuits are fed from opposite Lines, legs, measuring from the hot contact (smaller slot) of a receptacle connected to one of the branch circuits to the hot contact of a receptacle connected to the other branch circuit you will measure 240V nominal. If both circuits are fed from the same Line,leg, you will measure 0 nominal volts. You say an electrician installed the two circuits a number of years ago. Do you remember if the electrician installed Romex? Did he install two Romex cables or maybe only one? IF only one Romex cable he installed a 120/240V 3 wire multiwire branch circuit. If that is the case you have two separate 120V circuits that share a common neutral conductor. The Romex cable will have 3 insulated conductors + a bare equipment grounding conductor. If it is a multiwire branch circuit both hot separate circuit conductors must be fed from breakers fed from L1 and L2. . |
Yes my terminology was incorrect. And I do have 2 circuits on different legs, sides , whatever it is called. And it has worked well for a number of years. After all these years I can’t quote my electrician verbatim. But as mentioned, maybe the simplest way o explain is Audio is a 20 amp circuit on the left side of the breaker box and video is 20 amp on the right side of the box. sorry for any confusion |
in your breaker box you have two sides or rows of breakers. By having them on opposite sides the ground is then not interacting with each other which reduces noise. @theo I think you got some bad advice if your video is connected to the audio system. @jea48 I think theo may be misquoting the electrician. I believe he has a line for his video setup on one leg, audio setup is wired to the other leg. That's why I said ground and neutral is common. The video line and audio line use the same ground. There is no separate ground for each line. |
lowrider574,399 posts@ lowrider57 I have no idea what the guy is saying in your quoted message. But the ground and the neutral is common. Not independent.Correct. At the same potential at the main electrical service equipment panel. (Main disconnecting means, main breaker, mounted in the service equipment panel). The service neutral conductor/neutral bar is connected to earth as well is bonded, connected, to the panel’s metal enclosure by what is called the "Main Bonding Jumper". The main bonding jumper can be the green color screw that is supplied with the panel, or a bonding strap that is supplied with the panel, or a wire jumper that is sized per 2020 NEC Table 250.102 (C) (1). The grounded neutral conductor becomes the "Grounded Conductor" and shall not be bonded, connected, to ground at any point there after. (NEC). Branch circuit neutral conductors terminate on the grounded neutral bar. EGC(s) (Equipment Grounding Conductor)(s), can also terminate on the same grounded neutral bar. A separate EGB, (Equipment Ground Bar), can be bolted directly to the metal enclosure for EGCs to connect to. NEC allows the metal inclosure to be used as an EGC conductor. No copper or aluminum jumper wire is required from the neutral bar to the ground bar. The EGB can not be used as a neutral bar though. As it is plain to see there is one ground. And the Grounded Conductor is the conductor that carries any ground fault current, that is placed on it by the panel’s metal enclosure or any EGC, back to the source, the Utility Power Transformer. Even in a sub panel the insulated neutral bar and panel enclosure bonded EGB are at the same potential. Both the feeder neutral conductor and feeder EGC are connected together at the main electrical panel. There are factors, conditions, that can cause a small difference of potential between the two at the sub panel though. Voltage Drop on the feeder neutral is the cause. Wiring 2 dedicated lines on separate legs is not recommended if the loads are to be shared, correct?Correct if by shared loads you mean, when audio equipment’s signal grounds are connected together by wire unbalanced interconnects. Here is an old quote from a White Paper by Exact Power. (For some reason the Link is no longer any good. The last time I clicked on the Link was in May of 2013) Quote: "Less than 300 microamps of ground loop current can cause hum as it flows in an unbalanced audio interconnect cable. However, harmonics of 60Hz that are generated from lighting dimmers or switch-mode power supplies sound like Buzzz mixed with a bit of Hummm and are more easily coupled by even smaller currents. Harmonics can add together when equipment is powered from different phases, so clearly there is an advantage to specifying same-phase electrical service to power the electronics systems in most cases.... Any leakage currents on the safety ground wires of split single phase load circuits fed by different phase legs will add together due to the 240V potential difference.... Power conditioners do not solve any of these common problems: Cross phase coupling (doubles hums & buzzes) .... What actually does solve them: Same phase power.. Split Single Phase electrical service is most commonly found in residences and smaller commercial buildings, and is commonly used to feed AV equipment. One key advantage that single phase has over three phase is that while harmonic currents are still present, it is not possible for the �triplen� components to add in the neutral. In addition, use of split single phase can result in at least a 6dB reduction in noise floor as compared to three phase if the capacitances of the connected equipment are relatively well balanced. However, any leakage currents on the safety ground wires of split single phase load circuits fed by different phase legs will add together due to the 240V potential difference." http://www.exactpower.com/elite/assets/pdfs/theTRUTH.pdf (Disregard the part about 3 phase power. Our homes are fed by single phase power.) The first paragraph pretty much tells us why a dedicated branch circuit is better to feed our audio equipment from rather than a standard convenience outlet branch with who knows what all is connected to the branch circuit. Jim . |
in your breaker box you have two sides or rows of breakers. By having them on opposite sides the ground is then not interacting with each other which reduces noise. I had a master electrician do the install and it was his recommendation, it made sense to me that each circuit is independent of the other. I realize that only 3 wires come into the house and there is only one ground, but somehow he felt it was best.But the ground and the neutral is common. Not independent. @jea48 Your thoughts on this comment? Wiring 2 dedicated lines on separate legs is not recommended if the loads are to be shared, correct? |
Putting in a dedicated power line. Is it ok to put in 2 power receptacles at the end of it, or stick with one? Meaning 4 outlets. Im putting in Audioquest NRG Edison outlets.@ deanshias Yes you can. The branch circuit is dedicated to feed your audio equipment. Two duplex receptacles or even three is not a problem. (As long as they are grouped on the same wall. FYI, I would not install both duplex receptacles in the same box though. When they are installed in the same box and a wall wart(s) are used the wall wart as a rule will cover part of the receptacle next to it. I would recommend a separate one gang box for each duplex receptacle. You will want to do that anyway using the "Audioquest NRG Edison outlets". As far as I know it only comes with a single duplex cover plate. I would not use the duplex terminal connections to feed from one duplex to the next though. You want to pigtail out from the branch circuit wiring to feed the duplex outlet. Use a quality electrical live spring twist on connector. The spring will always keep the connection tight unlike a screw terminal type. Especially when using solid wire. Example: https://www.idealind.com/us/en/shop/twister-341.html . |
I think the question is terminology. There is a single ground bus and a single common bus, NOT keeping the two separated in the main box could cause noise. By removing or leaving the BRIDGE between the two (common and ground bus) they become one or removing it splits the two buses. It is a VERY common practice, to see a jumper between the two. It may have been an easier way to explain two grounds vs the practice of having a jumper between the two and REMOVING it. He separated the common bus from the ground bus and cleaned the customers main to reflect that.. Older homes you see it ALL the time.. SPLIT the two and remove the bridge.. Load 1 or Load 2, take your pic but NOT both. You can add 6 breakers just hook them ALL to L1 or L2 not both to equal the load (not that much of a load now anyway) The old SS Class As could suck the pole dry, still do for that matter. 220/240 is a better option for them. MC is using a step down from 220/240 to a singe common rail of 120 (if I remember correctly) he’s got a different set up than most. Running HD class A on his system would be no problem, but for the common man they may have to split two 120 vac load between L1 and L2 and result in noise. It’s all about leakage from the ground into common via the main OR subpanel lay out.. Who did what WHERE, kind of thing.. Clear as mud.. |
Opposite sides does not prevent them interacting with each other. Whatever that means. Anyone interested in understanding how our electricity works, from the grid to the panel to the outlet, this is highly recommended. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMmUoZh3Hq4 |
Convenience and short runs to the outlets are important considerations. In the US, using the NEC as guidance, yes, you can run a 15 or 20 AMP circuit to multiple outlets. In the NEC there are also requirements for having enough outlets on a wall. I forgot what they are, but in general the idea is to minimize the need for extension cords. I strongly encourage you to follow this minimum guidance at least. Best, E |
That's ok if it makes sense to you.. It still doesn't to me.. BUT who the heck am I.. I think I'll stick with what I've been doing.. I mean I did build the house. NOT somebody else I built it, wired it, and and now repairing it after 40 years.. BUT hay, I'm just al ol mechanic.. Being able to do, rough wiring, pole work, troubleshooting, or finish wiring is NOT a hard thing to do. BEING fast and making it look professional is Pure repetition and do the good ones pay. For that a decent electrician in new construction it's almost worth hiring just for the speed alone. Cool thing my brother was the BA for the IBEW local 302. With a little research you can figure out who I am.. NO lack of UNION Electricians around here.. Electricians, Mechanics, Cops, and Killers, My family!! Regards |
Sorry, in your breaker box you have two sides or rows of breakers. By having them on opposite sides the ground is then not interacting with each other which reduces noise. I had a master electrician do the install and it was his recommendation, it made sense to me that each circuit is independent of the other. I realize that only 3 wires come into the house and there is only one ground, but somehow he felt it was best. |
Two is not an issue, on the same rail in the main box is. You have 2 120 vac rails. Use only one of the rails in the main. As for the outlets you can have as many as you want, but remember the length of the wire/cable. The further the run the higher the likely hood of an antenna affect, RFI EFI. If you use the other leg (RAIL) you can create a ground loop. Do you understand? The difference in voltage between the TWO rails L1, L2 is usually where the noise happens. SLIGHT voltage difference, thus ground loop noise. Because different gear is on different rails, (L1 and L2) in the main and common cabling between gear, we can create NOISE. I won't put up with it.. mine is dead quiet because of that alone. Using only one side of the HOUSE MAIN... Keep the grounds and common separate in the main too.. Whole different story.. I've seen a lot of mixing the two together. Things work BUT there is a lot of voltage leakage in the circuit because of it.. Mixing the two only increases noise potential. Sometimes it's very difficult to track that type of noise down.. Regards |
Not really. The main benefit of a dedicated line is the elimination of connections going direct. So you lose that with the second outlet. But unless you only need two you lose that anyway with a conditioner or power strip. The main thing is if you are going to run everything through a conditioner then use one outlet and conditioner. If you will have no conditioner or things not using it then running an extra outlet (or a power strip) is the only way to go, as you want to keep it all on one line if possible. |
with the grounds on opposite legs in the breaker box.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not following you. There are opposite legs in your breaker box for ground? L1 L2 Common bus bar (bridge bar (remove or leave) between common and ground) Ground bus bar Where is the second ground bus in a 220-240 single phase main? L1 and L2 maybe.. Separate? Not a good idea that is how you get a ground loop.. Use only one dedicated 20 amp or a second BUT on the same bus, not the other.. L1 only L2 only, don't mix and match.. Regards |