In the Chenin, Can I disconnect the power supply from the rest of the preamp and just use the power supply to cook my new Bendix 6106 for a week? I will be away on vacation and was wondering if this was safe to do. Alternatively, would it be safe to just run the entire preamp for a week with the rest of the system turned-of? I read the Supratek Tube swapping thread last night and I know someone did this with his Cortese but no one spoke to regarding the Chenin. Bob |
Does anyone have a spare Bendix 6106 they they would like to sell? Impossible to get here in the UK. |
V21,
If no one here has an extra Bendix 6106 they are willing to part with.
Member Baranyi just bought one from Vintage Tube Services.
The owner Andy likes to be contacted by telephone however.
616-454-3467.I believe he is in Central Time Zone.
Or you could check with a tube vender here on Audiogon by the name of Sam1104 including some others.
You want to buy the 1950s vintage 6106.This tube was one of many used in the American missle defence sheild during this period of history.
A VERY robust tube.
Also they take along time to burn in.
Have patience.
At some point if you wanted to try apair of 6F6gs to go along with the Bendix.You should have no trouble finding any in the U.K.
The 6f6g is an old vacuum tube design and was used in radios and Juke boxes begining in the early 1930s right through to use in the audio sections of some amps and T.V.s.
|
Stiltskin
Many thanks for the info. Is there any way I can identify a 1950's 6106?
I have just installed a pair of new issue Tung-sol 6L6G "big bottle" replicas and they are sounding fantastic......replacing the supplied Sovtek KT66.
Are the 6F6Gs a drop in replacement? |
V21,
If you locate a tube vender that has some Bendix 6106,
request a 1950s vintage with matched sides.This tube was made into the 1970s.
A quick way to discribe a Bendix 6106 is log onto Tube World.com
Type in Bendix 6106 on their page,they will have a close up picture of a Joint Army and Navy [JAN] 50s vintage.
Yes the 6F6g is used by afew Supratek preamp owners including myself. |
I got a Cabernet Dual (latest one) and noticed that if I replace the Sovtek KT66 regulators with the Western Electric 350B I get a little more bass, but that bass is a little bloated. Thus, in order to rectify that issue I went back to the Sovtek KT66.
I used to have the Sauvignon before and the WE 350B was fantastic in that model.
Anyone out there have any experience with tube rolling on the "Cabernet Dual" as I'd be very interested as to your impressions.
Many Thanks, |
Clipsal,
What are you using in the 6sn7 position? Have you tried a 6f6g in the regulator position yet? |
Wow, I have had some time to read some of the threads.
Very passionate stuff.
Sounds like a great preamp, anyone in the Seattle area have one? |
I'm using the stock Electro Harmonix 6SN7 as it's not used as the driver in this particular pre. I do have the following stashed away from my Sauvignon days:
Ken Rad black glass VT-231
RCA grey glass VT-231
Tung Sol round plates 6SN7 black glass
Sylvania 6SN7GT
Ratheon 6SN7
Mullard GZ34
Bendix 6106 (not recommended by Mick in Dual)
I do have a pair of Sylvania 6F6G stashed away somwhere, that I can use including a pair of Tung-Sol KT66 (Russian)
Any thoughts? |
Clipsal,
Any chance you want to sell your Bendix 6106? |
Anybody, which is the best 6F6 type to use. I have seen both the "G" and "GT" types. |
V21, You want the G only
6F6g |
Clipsal,
As Stiltskin says, only use "g" do not use metal cans(6F6). Both the 6F6g and the 6F6GT are identical tubes. The only difference is the shape of the glass. The 6F6gt has a straight side.
http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6f6gt.html
I have several of each type (Visseaux 6F6G; Tung-Sol 6F6g; Tung-Sol 6F6gt) and can hear no difference between the tung-sol 6F6g and the tung-sol 6F6GT. The Visseaux 6F6g, while maintaining the qualities of the tung-sol 6f6g (speed,resolution), is not as linear. They have a bit more high end extension. Now this difference can most likly be contributed to diferences in the 'house sound' between Tung-Sol and Visseaux.
I find the 'tung-sol sound' less fatiguing during long listening sessions. I also like the look of the tung-sol 6F6GT, not unlike tung-sol 6sn7gt on steriods!
Last night (with a 6106 and a pair of tung-sol 6sn7gt RPs) I tried a pair of tung-sol 6L6WGB from the 50's in the regulator position. Great big rich sound with some substance! No comparison to the sovtek 5881 or the sovtek kt66 which in comparison have a small and anemic presentation. Not sure if it's sovtek in particular but these new production tubes have lost the Mojo!
Enjoy the music! |
Clipsal and V21,
My bad, the previous post/response was for V21.
Clipsal, can you further describe your Cabernet version. I was under the impression that in the most recent version of the Cabernet Dual, the 6sn7s drive both the 6H30 and the 101 stages. Is the bass bloat you describe in the 6h30 or the 101 portion? |
Powers
Many thanks for the info on the 6F6 types I will try and get a pair to compare. I have just fitted a pair of old Brimar 6L6G tubes into my Chardonnay and will see how they sound. No idea how they test but all I know is that they work.
I am still hoping someone here can offer me a Bendix 6106 as there seems to be a general consensus that this is the best rectifier to use. I have noticed that when I switch on, the tubes on the pre light up almost instantaneously though I thought that the Mullard GZ33 was supposed to be a slow start rectifier. |
Hi Powers,
You are correct in my Cabernet Dual, the 6sn7s drive both the 6H30 and the 101 stages. The bass bloat occurs with the 101D section with WE350B as I'm only using the 101D section.
The Sovtek KT66 is not bad, just a little etchy with a little less depth than the WE350B
The Sylvania 6F6G I have is the standard "G" version with a black base and a silvery top
Powers, do you use the Dual ?
Sorry V21, I have three friends who both want my Bendix as I have two of them.
Cheers |
Clipsal,
The 101 stage of the Cab Dual is best voiced for midrange and above while the 6H30 stage is optimal for low frequencies. (The right tools for the right job when biamping.) The 101 is not a stellar tube at low frquencies and maybe what you are experienceing is the 101's bass weekness. The 350b is a very linear tube and perhaps it accentuates the 101's inabilities in the bass department. Try the swapping the 350b with the KT66 and the EH 5881 while listening to the low frequency with the 6H30 stage. Any differences??
You can also try a Kenrad VT-231 in the driver seat...they always give something special to the bass. (at least in the Chardonnay)....Then of course maybe all this does not translate to the Cabernet Dual circuit (I hope not). Have fun and find what you like!
As a former Sauvignon owner, I would love to hear your impressions of your new Cab. How does it compare? What prompted your move up the 'food chain'?
BTW, Santa brought a Cab Dual and its burning-in as I write. The stock Sovtek and EH tubes will be the first to go!! ... you beat me to the punch. :)
Enjoy the Magic! |
I like the new Cabernet Dual. It's quite different to the Sauvignon. The 101D imparts a holographic image which outclasses the Sauvignon and the top end is simply sublime.
I decided to go for the Dual, simply because I felt I had hung on too long with the Sauvignon. I had the old one for about 3 years prior.
I tried the Ken Rad Black Glass VT-231 JAN CKR-6SN7GT VT-231 in the Dual and am very impressed. This baby packs a large wallop in the bass department and is not at all wolly and flabby in my current setup. The Ken Rads also have a little more body in the mid-range.
One of my friends was commenting that he felt there was a small hole in the mid-range that shut out some parts of the vocal frequency range and made many of the vocals to sound a little recessed (eg. similar depth in presentation to the instruments). This could be due to the room I think, but the Ken Rads may have rectified this issue somewhat for the time being. I'll let you know when my Audiophile buddy comes over again.
My current set of speakers is the WHT PR-1 (http://www.whtspeakers.com), which are a pair of 2-way horn loaded ribbons. This explains why I'm only running one half of the pre-amp at the moment. The 101D section is connected to PR-1 completely. Even though the speakers are bi-wireable, it would not make sense to connect the ribbon tweeter to the 101D and the mid-range/woofer to the 6H30.
I'm planning to pick up the matching WHT active subwoofer and connect that directly to the 6H30 section using the RCA inputs/outputs. This should hopefully rectify the situation, and will keep my fingers crossed. |
Clipsal,
Nice set of speakers!
I'm glad the Kenrads are working out for you.
Cheers! |
Has anyone tried a KT63, this is supposed to be a 6F6G equivalent. |
How quiet is the Cabernet Dual? I plan on using it with high efficiency speakers. I heard awhile back the Dual is more noisy than the Sauvignon or Chardonnay. Does the Dual compare with SS preamp in background noise? Thanks. |
dracule1:
i don't own a cabernet (yet), but clipsal owns the dual and uses it with 94dB sensitivity speakers. i don'ta recall seeing him ever complain about it being noisy. if i can ever convince mick to finish my cabernet, i'll be using it with von schweikert dB99 SE speakers. |
Hi Dracule1,
Originally the Cabernet Dual was noisy as I noticed it had a quite a bit of hum coming from the power supply. Amazingly, after placing the Dual on my new Audiav Crystal Rack, the noise has completely vanished (dead quiet). Go figure ?
In terms of background noise coming from the speakers, it might be wise to adjust the gain on the amplifier. Similar to the feature on Mick's amplifiers. My amplifier was hand made by a guy here in Sydney, so I just went there again and asked him to retrofit an adjustable gain and feedback control for each of the mono-blocks. This then allows one to perfectly tune the pre-amp to the amplifiers.
Thus, after having the adjustable gain incorporated, I just turned down the gain a little from the default factory setting on the amplifier and wollah, NO hum or noise from the speakers. Btw, the speakers in the current incarnation are around 98 DB sensitivity. |
Thanks for the reply Clipsal and Kgturner. Can't the gain on the Dual be adjusted? |
Dracule1
Only the gain for the 6H30 section (Bass) can be adjusted NOT the 101D. |
Hmm.. the 6moons review of the dual shows a picture of a dial at the back of the preamp for mid/treble gain. Did Mick delete this feature? |
Srajan's reviewed a older version of the Cabernet Dual. The review version used the 6sn7 tube for the low frequency. The most recent version (manufactured Dec '07) uses a 6H30 for the low frequency stage. There is a master control pot on the front of the chassis and a low frequency pot on the top of the chassis in between the 6H30 tubes. On the rear of the unit there are no gain controls, just a switch for xlr or RCA output. |
Thanks. Guess 6H30 is better than 6sn7 for bass and probably better for the rest of the freq as well. ARC seems to use this tube in many of their gears. |
I've tried using only the 6H30 section and it sounds a quiet sterile. Really need the 101D to get the magic. |
What kind of "magic" are you talking about? |
The Midrange sounds sublime with the 101D including a very extended top end. Plus the amount of detail retreived is astonishing with this valve. I have two other friends who both have the Sauvignon model commenting on the sound quality of Mick's pre with the 101D section. |
Any Supratek owners own Merlin speakers. Just curious if this is a good synergy. As with any combo I realize YMMV but I am just looking for impressions from any owners. Any feedback would be helpful.
good listening |
Thanks Clipsal. Nice to hear what the 101D does. I was worried the tube may veil the sound of the source. I was thinking about going the passive route but I think the dynamics will get lost. |
Has anyone out there contemplated changing the volume pot on the cortese to the alps RK50 ( as used on Kondo) - it may be possible to adapt and keep the remote control inside the unit unlike the DACT |
All Supratek owners may want to read this short article by Srajan from 6moons on cap rolling (v-caps) and why he's going back to the stock Auricaps.l
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/caprolling/caps.html |
clipsal:
i read that article this morning. i asked mick in regard to my cabernet dual and he stated that it is coming equipped with auricaps. he did not speak kindly of the v-caps. my cabernet dual is presently sitting at my local fedex sort facility. i presume i will receive it monday. until then, i can only wait. |
Srajan further suggests that Mick uses auricaps in his equipment.
Curious, if Mick does not like v-caps why would he ship units with them?
I just popped my bottom cover off my Cab Dual (manufactured less than a month ago) and I see both auricaps and v-caps TFTF. Hopefully the v-caps are in a benign position???
Clipsal, do you have v-caps? |
I just asked Mick about installing v caps in my Chardonnay and this was his reply... "Richard I hate the V-caps- they re brittle and harsh sounding- some think they have "detail", but that's their call not mine" |
I asked Mick about the V-CAP and he replied same as Zarco stated. |
I spoke with Mick about 5 months ago about the V-Caps, and he said he needed more time to form a final opinion. He only had about 50 to 70 hour on them. I contacted him recently and he said after putting 400+ hours on them that he did not like them and would not recommend using them. I continue to stand by my opinion that Mick got my Cortese right from the start. It sounds great to me in stock form. I have no desire to change tubes, volume control, or caps. I just continue to enjoy music!
Kgturner,
Glad to hear your Cabernet Dual is on it's way to you. I hope you enjoy it. I am sorry the Malbecs did not work out for you. |
Not my experience at all with V-caps. I love them, but who am I to argue with Mick.
I find the V-caps get rid of a lot of fuzz. Yes, they do seem increase detail, but I would rather describe them as more invisible. And don't forget, the upstream components have a lot to do with what one may hear from their Supratek.
As much as I respect Mick, he is one opinion. There are a lot of high-end manufacturers that have gone exclusively to V-caps.
So I guess to each his own, but I can't stand the fuzz of the Auricaps nor the haze of the Alps pots. I believe both components add a more diffuse sound to my Supratek and I don't like it. I prefer cystal clear detail that is still musical. And I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive. If the V-caps were brittle or harsh in my system I would take them out in a heartbeat (since I was the one who put them in). I just haven't found V-caps to be a negative in any way in my system. But I do have a Forsell Air Reference Transport (noted for it's analog sound) and an Audio Note DAC in front of my Supratek.
Clearly, the system as a whole has to be viewed in the context of what one component may do to the sound. If your system is smooth, I believe V-caps will give you more smooth, if there is any harshness anywhere in your system, I believe V-caps will help expose that. YMMV |
Hi Powers,
I've got two v-caps in my Cabernet Dual as well as a whole bunch of Auricaps. Mick did say the V-Caps in mine are in the position that make the most difference. I'm also considering removing them as I don't find the Cabernet Dual as musical as the Sauvignon, I had earlier. A lot more detail yes, but maybe not as musically satisfying. The detail is probably more due to the 101D section of the pre-amp then the capacitors. |
I would like to second Fiddler - in my cortese the V caps gave bass extension, detail and cleaned up the "fuzz" - I don't see why detail and musicality are mutualy exclusive -often when resolution is improved it exposes other challenges in the system - my experience is that vibration control and room treatment need to be developed at the same time as the rest of the system |
It's clearly a matter of taste. I can see how what I like about the AuriCaps, someone else might relate to as fuzzier.
I think Mick started to use VCaps because customers asked him to. I didn't like the change and asked him what he thought. After he'd put on 400 hours, he disliked the VCaps and went back to the Auris. When I asked about Audience's new Teflon caps, Mick said they were expensive as sin and he'd only recommend those to people who don't care about money (which ain't me).
Just speaking for myself, I'm thrilled to be back in the AuriCap reservation. At the end of the day, it was a great exercise to hear just how much a simple swap of two parts (one per channel) can affect the outcome of a finely calibrated circuit.
I'm sending my VCaps back to Mick so he can use them for one of his customers who wants 'em -:) |
When I ordered my Sauvignon Mick installed the V-caps. They certainly do not sound brittle and harsh IMS.
I can't compare, though I never had the Auricaps might be something to try in the future.
Everybody hears differently what somebody dislikes might be the other person cat's meow.
On second thought with the stock EH 6sn7's instead of some good NOS I rolled in, the sound is a little less smooth. |
well...after many months of waiting, my cabernet dual has arrived and is burning in as i type. i'll reserve judgement on it's "sound", but what i'm hearing straight out of the box is VERY impressive. if i had pick one word to describe what i'm hearing right now, it would be detail. loads and loads of detail without the slightest hint of harshness or grain. lemme take two words and say effortless detail.
being the nitpicky person that i am, one thing i would prefer the cab dual have that it doesn't is gain controls for the 101D section. the 6H30 has a gain control between the tubes, but there is nothing for the 101D. not even the high-low switches next to the 6SN7's that my old chardonnay had. unfortunately, i sold my chardonnay so long ago, that any audible comparison between the two would be an exercise in futility. of course, this is only a matter of functionality and not sound quality. if i had my druthers...
as with anything bearing the supratek name, the fit and finish is beyond reproach. i still marvel at how mick can sell such visually and, more importantly, audibly beautiful preamps at such a low price point. packaging is extremely sturdy. it's almost impossible to pry the preamplifier from it's packaging. i was worried i would scratch the piano black finish pulling it out, but everything appears tip top.
one thing i noticed right away is that this thing is super high gain! paired with my yamamoto a-08s (using EML 45 solid plates), i can't turn the volume knob past the 8 o'clock position without blowing myself out of the room. standing next to my von schweikert dB99 SE speakers with nothing playing, i can hear some hiss and hum. however, i can't really hear it at my listening position and it doesn't interfere with the music at all. this may be due to positioning and/or vibration control. the cab dual is sitting on top of a salamander synergy stand with the yamamoto directly between the preamp and power supply.
well that's enough, perhaps i'll post some more later, but for now, i'm gonna go listen. and as always, a very special thank you and debt of gratitude to slowhand for introducing me (and us) to these amazing preamplifiers. |
SWEET!
I thought you got a single?
Enjoy the Bliss! |
I'd just like to say welcome to Srajan, your input to this forum is greatly appreciated.
As to tube rolling and cap swaps, I'm one of the Supratekies who doesn't believe in upsetting the apple cart and listen to my Grange preamp as the maker intended - with Auriecaps and the tubes as it left the factory. Living near Mick here in Western Australia and having known the guy for over 15 years, you get a feel for the way he thinks and the pride he takes in 'tuning' the sound of his preamplifiers before they are delivered to customers.
That is not to say I am not a tweaker as you can see from my many ramblings and playing around with my hi-fi at: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1146370182&view
So IMHO, its best to leave well enough alone and just enjoy the Suprateks as is.
Regards,
Steve. |
Here's what I don't get. It seems that some here think that one shouldn't change caps, pots or even tubes in Suprateks simply because, "Mick didn't build 'em that way."
I think that is just so much nonsense. As much as I respect Mick's work, he's not God. I clearly happen to disagree with him on the DACT and the V-Caps. That's okay with me that we disagree, I still respect his opinion, I just have a different one.
Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere also has a different opinion. He offers an expensive cap UPGRADE on his preamps to guess what ... V-Caps and I think Ralph has a pretty good reputation in the business.
I find it ironic that while some believe that Mick's preamps "shouldn't be tinkered with", Mick offers this on his website:
"The Cabernet Single uses 6SN7 and 101D tubes , but can also be ordered with your favorite DHT tube. Choose from the 45,300B or 101D (standard) or if you would like to hear the lush smooth tones of a genuine 1930's NOS tube we can supply the single with 6SN7 and 33 tubes..."
Well, what the hey! That's some major tinkering.
To some it's heresy and just short of a crime to change to a cleaner, clearer, better defined, more musical cap (V-Cap or Mundorf) or better attenuator (DACT) because, "That's not the one Mick uses." However, I'd bet these same people would find it perfectly okay to change to a 45, 300B, 101D or a lush 33 all in the same preamp simply because Mick says it's okay on his website!
Hey, sorry for the rant, but it's silly to think that four different tubes can be chosen for the same preamp to alter the sound to one's preference, but heaven forbid one should change a stock tube, cap or pot!
Don't get me wrong. I think Mick's preamps are works of art, but I'm still going to trust my own ears no matter who may have a different opinion. |
Agreed Fiddler, and a lot what you say makes sense and different tubes *do* sound different. However, you'll notice that what Mick proposes with tube swapping is changing the type of tube to alter the sound, say from a 45 to 300B rather tube rolling within the same type.
That said, I suppose it is common knowledge that some tubes within the same type are better than others, the Western Electric 300B being a good example of a universally praised 'best of' 300B. With Mick's preamps all I'm saying is that they leave the factory sounding pretty good, and a lot of us have found for example that his chosen EH-6SN7 seems to sound just as good (if not better) than the drawful of expensive Kenrads/Sylvania VT231's some of us have ended with!
In the end, I do agree with you that you need to trust your ears and if tube rolling or cap swaps give a perceived better result - then thats all that matters.
Regards,
Steve. |
