Preamp Deal of the Century

>>I think you get a free toaster<<
You'll have it in 4-6 months.
:-)

You'll have it in 4-6 months

Yet, by all accounts it'll be worth the wait, even if
you do have to load the toast from down under.

Kgturner,

This is the first I have heard about the KT-88 amp. When Mick answers your questions, please share the info with the rest of us. I do know that Mick was talking about building a more affordable amp that could mate with the Chenin.

The amplifier is still in development. Power output has not yet been determined. Mick says he loves the sound of the amp as it is now but the power may not be sufficient for some of the more difficult speaker loads. It's going to be at least a few more months before the final design is set.

thanks, wc. i had emailed mick a while back and asked about the burgundy amps. he informed me that he had discontinued them and was working on a 100 watt kt88 amp. i'm pretty sure the current kt88 on his site isn't capable of 100 watts from just two kt88 though. i will definitely be intrested in the developments of this new amp as i'd love to have a 100+ watt supratek amp to mate with my chardonnay.

From the pics it looks like two KT-88s per channel, for a total of four. I own a Music Reference RM-200, which generates 100+ Watts also using two KT-88's per channel.

This thread appears to be dying out. Well, I will add my 2 cents to keep it going. Received my new Cortese about 2 months ago and it really is what most posts on this thread say. The phono stage is amazing. I have not started tube rolling yet but look forward to trying some NOS tubes.
Any agreement by Supratek owners as to tube changes that seem to provide even better sound? Just too many threads to do a search.
Thanks in advance.

The biggest bangs for the buck regarding tube rolling, IMO, are the rectifier and phono tubes. I substituted a 1957 Philips Mini Watt metal base GZ34 for the factory 5AR4 and a pair of Siemens Cca for the factory 6922 in my Grange. This was a huge upgrade even though Mick is very careful in selecting the tubes he supplies.
If you really want to get adventurous, upgrade the coupling capacitors. This substantially increases dynamics and allows the preamp to dig deeper into your source material.

Docsavage,

Glad to hear you love the new Cortese. Mick sent me an e-mail telling me that mine is almost done. I can't wait to get it. To be honest, I don't see how it can sound better than my Syrah! Man, do I love that preamp. The sound I am getting from my system right now is just amazing. I know the Cortese will be even better. Ever since I got my new ZYX Yatra cartridge (thanks Lugnut), I have barely turned on my Sony SCD-1. Mick really does magic with his phono stages. Docsavage, do you find the phono stage to be quiet? Because Micks preamps are such high gain, noise in the phono stage has been a problem for some people (I am not one of them). Mick told me that the newest Cortese is much quieter in the phono stage. Just wondered what your thoughts are. I am using the Electro Harmonix 6sn7's that Mick likes so well in my Syrah. A guy sold me a pair for $10 and I think they sound fantastic. Tung Sol rounds are better, but when you take into account the price difference, I'll take the EH6sn7's.

Hi Gang. Doc... congrats on the new cortese... it truly is stupid good huh. I can only re-iterate to what mcmustang is alluding too, as the benefits are immediate upon first listen. Start with a good nos rectifier first.The early philips metal based GZ34 that mcmustang is using is about as good as it gets if you can locate one. They can be a little pricey but will also last longer than you or your equipment, pug it in and forget about it! Actually... Any of the vintage mullard gz34's are light years better than the stock rectifier thats supplied with your preamp and all of them are built like tanks and will last just about forever. For those with the 6922/6dj8/ecc88 tube family in the phono stage, there are many different flavours for voicing with but most of the 60's vintage tubes of that family will stomp on the stock tubes mick supplies as long as they are quiet and non-microphonic. I too,think the pre-70's siemens cca is the best of the family, although the white labell amperex e88cc's [d getter versions] present a musically compelling alternative. Line stage??? For those with suprateks employing the 6sn7 dual triode in the line stage.... many flavours here as well. I did try the eh6sn7 in my syrah and was pleasantly suprised, I found it to be very quiet and a tonally well balanced tube overall, but the tung-sol round and kenrad black are certainly in another league altogether....far more organic, with superior dynamic contrast,depth of stage,and the ability to resolve that fine micro detail and nuance that seems missing in action with the EH. Both the tung-sol round and the kenrad black possess a certain decay to percussive notes that's akin to a real instrument in the room. As usual... your mileage may vary. Enjoy!

Thanks all, looks like some tube rolling is in order soon. Mustang, I find the phono stage to be very quite. I do at times play the tunes a bit on the loud side but only at severe levels do I hear a bit of hum between cuts. Actually, several other phono stages I have used had much more noise. I know that the general consensus on this forum is that the gain levels should be set to max output. I have been puzzled by this. I don't believe Mick would include so much control if he thought it would not be beneficial given individual system requirements. I find that backing off the rear panel setting a bit and placing the top switches to low gain sounds much better in my system. I will be doing much more experimenting with these features. I must say that "out of the box" this pre blew me away. Even after reading many posts here, I was not prepared for such a dramatic change. By the way I do not post very often. I did want to get the thread going because I have learned so much here on this subject. I know the tendency is to tout ones own equipment but in this case it really is that good.

Hey Doc. What cartridge are you using?

Ecclectique,

How long did you leave the EH6SN7s in? I thought they were berry, berry good right out of the box, but they really bloomed after a month.

I have numerous NOS 6SN7s: Tung-Sol Round Plates, 52 Syls, etc. among others and I prefer the EHs to all of them. They really came into their own after a hundred hours or so (I'm just guessing here, but they did take quite some time to really become outstanding.)

I know you are far more experienced than I am when it comes to tubes, but I thought I would just offer you my experience.

Ecclectique,
At the moment I am using a VDH Black beauty Special X.
I am awaiting a new TT and Schroeder arm and considering an ZYX Universe. I just have to make sure it is a definite upgrade worth the money. Expensive! I hope the new set up will be with me for a very long time so it may make sense to make this final cart. purchase

Doc, the Cca not only lowers the noise level, which I really didn't feel necessary either, but to expand the dynamics and increase the detail in the phono section. As Ecclectique articulates, there are many less expensive 6922 substitutes that will kick your phono stage up a couple levels at an affordable cost.

Hello gang. Fiddler... thanks for the heads up, as I doubt I put anymore than 20 hours of seat time with the EH6sn7's in the syrah.I will certainly run them in again as I do like their tonal balance. DOC... You mentioned a little hum at very high gain in the phono stage. Hum, as opposed to tube rush or tube noise is generally a grounding issue somewhere between the cartridge/arm and cable interface to the phono stage. A 60hz buzz that piggybacks the signal from your cartridge and sometimes can be a pain in the butt to get rid of.

Ecclectique and Mustang
Hi, I located the 1957 Philips Mini Watt metal base GZ34. I am looking forward to giving that a try. Expensive but it seems it may be well worth it. Also located a set of 6SN7
Tung-sol round plates. This should be fun. I researched this topic for quite a long time. They appear to be great suggestions.
Have you guys tried out any 7308's in the phono stage?
I was also advised that the 6F6 tube works well in the regulator position? Mick built my Cortese with 4 regulator tubes so it gets a bit more difficult.
Ecclectique, I will revisit the hum issue I raised. I hope I did not make too much of it. It is not there under most db levels. It may in fact be more of a tube rush noise but only at very high levels. I do run an all tube system.
Atma-sphere amps. I will check this out. Overall I think this is a very quite pre.
Thanks for all the great info.

Fiddler,

I agree with you completely on your findings of the EH6sn7's. I bought mine used and I believe they are broken in. I think they sound fantastic. Plenty of body and weight to the music with great dynamics. On CD's I feel they are just as good as my TS rounds, on phono the TS may be a hair better, but not enough to worry about. I have had my EH6sn7's in my Syrah ever since I got them and fell I am missing nothing at not having my NOS tubes in. Doc, you have my mouth watering when you describe the sound of your Cortese. These last few weeks of waiting will be the worst.

Doc, You are quite ambitious I must say. The Philips is a great tube. I replaced the four 5881 regulator tubes that came with my Grange. I am currently using a matched quad of 1948 Westinghouse 6F6 and it sounds wonderful. FWIW I recommend using Walker SST or Xtreme contact enhancer.

Down the road, think about installing the Mundorf coupling capacitors. Expensive but they really kick some butt. I also replaced the factory installed Auricaps with a pair of V-Cap teflon film caps and my Grange is singing sweet.

Thanks Mustang.
I am surprised about your use of contact enhancer. I thought the conventional wisdom on that was not to use anything on tube pins. I use the SST product on connections with some success.
I appreciate the 6F6 tube info. I do not fully understand tube swapping. Ex. 6F6 for 5881. Nomenclature is so different. Foremost, DO NO DAMAGE.
Yes, I am a bit ambitious. I caught this disease about 40 years ago with my first purchase at the old "Lafayette
Electronics" store. I have never found a cure. I guess this gives up my age. I wish my ears were as good today.
I am possibly seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. I am sure I will always try out a new tube or set on IC's but my equipment purchases are nearly at the end. (I hope)
At least until the "next great thing" comes out.
The Cortese is so good that I find it hard to believe that it can get better with NOS tubes. I must hear for myself and in that light I may as well go for the best tubes I can find up front. I don't want to make tube swapping a full time job.
Doc

Docsavage,

Don't get so caught up in tube swapping that you lose track of the music. After the Cortese is broken in, try some of the NOS tubes that the guys have mentioned. Just make sure you enjoy the music above all else. I am playing Lucinda Williams double LP "World Without Tears". KILLER MUSIC!

Thanks Slowhand. The music is always first. Now playing Van Morrison "Enlightenment" I will definitely check out the Lucinda Williams LP. Thanks for the tip.

Doc

Doc,
the Lucinda Williams is brilliant.
I would not put a tube in my Syrah or anything else without a coating of Silclear and if I were you, I would just enjoy the pre as is.
I have a box of nos tubes that work and a much bigger box of their partners that are noisy or dead.All of which cost a fortune.
I've had some real scares with tubes letting go and I've settled for a cheapo pair of Valve Arts that sound fine and don't try to kill my system.
Take Micks advice, leave well alone and just enjoy your music !!!
Simon

Why hasn't anybody recently discussed anything other than the Supratek. I know it's a Darned good pre-amp. I was blown away by Slipknot's when it the first time, I could not believe how good it was. Especially for the money he paid but is it the deal of the century? You mean there is nothing less expensive. I for one don't want to spend over $3,000 nor do I wish to wait until it gives birth after 9 months. Come on guys and Women to be politically correct. Lets hear some new chat on cheap preamps. Are you saying they have all possible giant killers been discussed ad nauseum? What about some of the inexpensive Chinese stuff is there really nothing out there?

Mechans,

Feel free to open a NEW thread on Chinese preamps!

I suspect most involved in this thread are involved because of their ownership of or specific interest in Suprateks. Nuff said.

Fiddler has a great idea Mechans. Maybe you could title it "Preamp Deal of the Week". This will apply to both money spent and product longevity.

OK Fiddler good idea. BTW Mr.Mustang there are some well established brands.

>>there are some well established brands<<

With well established failure and/or repair records. LOL

Hi Guys,

Just to change tack on the tube rolling subject which is discussed ad-infinitum on this forum, I'm curious to know what speakers you guys use with your Supratek preamps and amps??

You may recall that I live in Western Australia and have known Mick Maloney of Supratek, since its inception some ten years ago. And, I have heard or owned all the Supratek models from Syrah-to-Cortese-to-Cabernet-to-the Merlot monobloc amps.

You don't know how good Mick's preamps and amps are until you put them through their paces on some hi-rez speakers! I'm talking about things like Quad Electrostatics; Martin Logan's; Proacs; Yamaha NS1000's (with the highly detailed beryllium drivers); the ER Audio ESL-3 (superfast 3.4 micron thin-filmed electrostats see: www.eraudio.com.au ); Jamo Concert 8's with Seas Excel magnesium drivers and silver voice coils; various Accuton ceramic/Raven ribbon speaker arrays; Apogee ribbons and also the Edgar Horns. All of which - I have owned and tried at some stage in my audio quest, with the Supratek products.

When you get speakers of the type mentioned above, you realize how good the Supratek products really are! The fine detail and nuance; inflection and expression of music presented by Mick's creations don't really show through until you get a really GOOD SPEAKER. So my tip to you guys is stop mucking around with tube rolling, be assured you have one of the best preamps on the planet with Supratek - and look to improve other parts of your system (speakers being the most critical component and a good start).

All in my humble opinion of course...

Regards,

Steve M.

Stevem1960,
I remember having in the past small ProAc speaker and remember having incredibly alive sound. What ProAc speaker did you have and what power amp was used ?
I have Chenin+Clayton M100.

I am wondering how much better the preamps get when moving up the Supratek line. I have enjoyed the Chenin for almost a year (with Apogee Scintillas Steven1960) but I wonder how much better the higher priced versions are in performance. The Chenin is the best preamp that I have ever owned and works great with the H2O digital amps that I use. I read a while ago that Bwhite didn't think the Cortese was that much of a difference from his Syrah. How about jumping to the Cabernet line stage? I would like to hear the reaction of those who have climbed the Supratek ladder.

Stevem1960 - while I appreciate your comments about the importance of speakers, I must comment that most people on this site (& Supratek owners in general) already have great speakers and are sophisticated enough to understand their importance.

While there is some merit to your suggestion, please note that simply dropping in a new (Stevem1960 approved) pair of speakers will not "solve" anything. In MY humble opinion, adding new speakers (or any new/different component for that matter) to a system will only reinforce the need for additional tuning.

There are many factors which come into play when building a system. Trying to create a synergy between components, cables, speakers, room and living situation (limited space-too much space, etc.) can be difficult.

This is why tube rolling is a very effective means of obtaining a more desirable sonic signature. It is much easier to buy & audition various tubes than it is to do the same with speakers.

Of course, cables make a significant change too... but even the most rare & expensive tubes are bargain priced compared to some of the cable offerings.

Baranyi - nice to hear from you. I hope all is well. In my opinion, there IS an improvement when going up the Supratek line however it is not as significant as I had expected. The Supratek products I've used tend to have a very similar family sound and therefore the gains are mostly in refinement.

In my experience, the Cortese (for example) is ABSOLUTELY NOT microphonic, has a lower noise floor and a certain precision which the Syrah lacked. I think the bass was slightly better and the phono somewhat quieter.

Interesting comment regarding the microphony of the Cortese. My Cortese was, by far, the most microphonic preamp I have ever owned. I now own an Aesthetix Janus, which is an all around better preamp.

Bwhite,
Nice to talk to you as well. Are you still using a Supratek preamp? I thought that you bought the Aesthetix separates. Hope all is well in your new home (NC?) Bob

Curriemt - Microphonics are relative. If you have microphonic tubes there is no helping the situation other than to replace the tubes. I'd suspect that was the problem with your Cortese. The Cortese is solid.

But...

Because of it's point to point, solid core wiring and relatively thin chassis, I could see how the Cortese might be considered more microphonic because those elements can exacerbate microphonic tubes when compared to something with a PC board like your Janus - or others.

Without getting too in-depth - I might say, the Janus, Rhea and Calypso have their own set of issues to keep owners and dealers quite busy. So much so that my dealer stopped carrying them.

Hi Baranyi - I am no longer using a Supratek - I had the Aesthetix IO Sig before the Supratek. I've tried many preamps lately and to be honest, you've got to spend a lot of money to do better. You guys should be very happy with these & feel no need to change.

That said, I do have gripes about the Supratek's and if those could be fixed, the units would be truly world class. I presume some of the mods that have been written about lately would resolve some of those gripes.

Microphonic ? I use my Syrah in a 10x12ft room, way too much amp and way too big speakers but have never had a problem in this respect.
Both psu & pre-amp are floating on Dharumas which must help.
It's the first time I have tried creatura tube dampers without much of a result.
Not sure why this should be but vibration/microphony is certainly not a problem with my pre.
Simon

Bwhite, I have to disagree. I owned the Cortese for a year and half, went though inumerable 6SN7s and 6922s, including some selected tubes purchased from Kevin Deal, and still the problem was there. By the way, three different types of tube dampers made their way into the system as well. Even in the best case, it was still an exceedingly microphonic preamp.

The Saturn series from Aesthetix had some early teething problems, no doubt about it. These appear to have been solved. In my opinion, the Janus is a superior preamp to the Cortese in almost every regard.

BWhite, points taken...I'm just making a generalised statement that speakers have probably the greatest effect on the way sound is reproduced (way above any tube rolling in a preamp). Normal cones-n-domes just don't cut the mustard with the fine detail on offer from Supratek preamps. It's not until you start getting involved with electrostats; Raven ribbons; Beryllium drivers; Accuton ceramics; Fostexes or well sorted horns that you truly start to appreciate the nuances of Mick Maloney's artistry.

I'm still curious to know what speakers you guys are using with your Suprateks ?

Regards,

Steve.

Hello Steve,I have Paradigm Studio 100s,they do sound good ,and are fun to listen to,but i know they are not the most resolving speakers ,just have not heard anything thats made me want to commit yet,ive been searching for over a year now,cant wait till i find them!But for now they sound very good with a good recording!I think the rest of my system is to the point that the right speakers will bring out what my Chardonnay is capable of.I did like a pair of Nola vipers that i heard at a local dealer,and would love to drag my amp and preamp over to hear how they would sound together,the most i could spend would be 3,000 and will be buying used.

Curriemt11 - what were the problems you experienced that lead you to believe the Cortese was microphonic? Can you describe them, when they occurred, what they sounded like, etc?

Steve - I agree, good speaker are very important... Unfortunately they but are a real pain in the rear to buy & sell - so auditioning esoteric speakers in our homes, with our systems is very difficult compared to auditioning other components.

I've used Wilson Benesch speakers for a number of years and I've been quite happy with them. But! I am on my way to becoming a first time father so....I sold them and will be trying to build a system which is very low power with high efficiency single point speakers - in an effort to get great sound at lower volumes. The Single Ended / Single Point world is new to me and I'm still trying to determine what speakers to buy.. but they must work well with a 45 SET amp.

With all due respect, herein lies the problem that I first hinted at. Speakers from Paradigm with polypropylene cones and even the Wilson Benesch with its (slightly fuzzy)Scanspeak carbon cones are not the last word in resolution. The inner beauty and differentiation of low level detail and tonal textures of the Supratek Cortese or Cabernet will not necessarily show through with speakers such as these.

Its not until you enter the realm of electrostats, horns, Raven ribbons and Accutons that you will truly know what your Suprateks are capable of.

Brian, if you are down sizing to the world of Single Point Source drivers, give the eight inch Fostex FE206E a try. Its got an uneven response tilted towards the upper mids, but the overall sound is superb! Its highly efficient at 96dB/w/m, very coherent sounding with pin point sharp imaging and excellent treble response. You will need to build a sub-woofer to match though, to augment bass. The good news is that the Fostex is only $68USD ea. from Madisound, so you've got nothing to lose.

Regards,

Steve.

Stevem1960

I am using Mauhorn IV with Lowther EX2 drivers, driven by Cary 300B SET monos. REL Strata 5 for the lows . Point source & no-crossovers is truly something to hear. Love the combo with my Chardonay.

Bwhite, I wasn't "lead to believe that the Cortese was microphonic". It WAS microphonic. Tap the top plate and hear it ring like a chime! Thump the volume control and just listen to it reverberate through the room! Tizziness in the upper mids and highs at anything greater than moderate volume levels. The Cortese is a very good preamp, but dead silence is not one of its assets.

Curriemt, looks like what you experienced is accurately described as a microphonic Cortese. Not sure what vintage yours was but mine was built in late 2002. It was rock solid. Even heavy thumps on the chassis wouldn't cause any problems.. and that's saying something considering I was using tubes from 1940.

My previous Suprateks (Chardonnay/Syrah) had issues caused by just lightly touching the chassis. It made piano sounding noises.

FYI - You are correct, the Janus problems have been fixed - I believe current models have fewer tubes in the circuit and unfortunately don't sound quite as good as the older unreliable Janus.

Steve, come on... please! The Supratek's are NOT "high resolution" preamps capable of reproducing low level detail beyond what (almost) any decent (non-metalic or ceramic) speaker is capable of.

Personally, metallic and ceramic drivers are not my cup of tea. I cannot listen to them because they introduce a non-natural hardness to the music - I guess that can be perceived as "inner detail". If we assume that these types of transducers "bring out the detail" of the Supratek, I would have to disagree and suggest that they create an illusion of air and inner-detail because of their ringing, metallic composition.

Also remember there is a pair of interconnects, an amplifier and a pair of speaker cables between the Supratek and the speakers.

In order to really hear what a Supratek does you have to remove it from your system.

Get a record that starts off slow & quiet. Use Bolero or something like that.. then run your source directly to your amp and then tell me what you hear.... I am sure that will end the discussion about the Supratek's inner detail.

You may end up sending your preamp back to Mick.

Bwhite, I do not know what the vintage of my Cortese was, as I was the second owner. If I had to guess, I would say mid-2003. I suppose that I should have qualified my statements by saying that MY Cortese had these problems rather than generalizing.

As for the Janus, I have one of the earliest ones and have had no problems whatever. What evidence do you have that the later units do not sound as good as the earlier? FWIW, my experience doesn't match that. An audio buddy has a new Janus that we have auditioned in my system. I cannot tell the difference, except that his is ever so slightly quieter in the phono stage.