I have been reading this thread for quite some time and with a great deal of interest. In early March I ordered a Cabernet preamp from Mick. With that in mind, I have a question for other Cabernet owners. How tall are the two units? I am having an audio rack custom built and need the height inorder to know how to space the shelves. This information doesn't seem to be on the Mick's web site. Thanks for your input. |
The height of the powersupply will vary with the tubes you put in it. Without tubes it is 3". A gz33 or gz37 can be about 5" tall. Also leave room for isolation devices. So 12" between racks should do it. The preamp is a little under 9" tall from bottom of the the rubber supports to the top of the domes. I doubt seriously that any tube will ever clear the top of the domes. But consideration should be left for isolation devices especially if you have overly microphonic tubes. |
Hi Guys,
I have been without my Syrah for the past 3 weeks or so. We put in some new carpet, so I had to take my system apart. I have a friend that has been wanting to hear my Syrah in his system, so I let him borrow it. My friends system is top notch, truly incredible sound. Long story short. He is going to be ordering a pre from Mick. I got the Syrah back today (I had been listening to cd's through my Sony SCD-1 straight into my Berning ZH270). WOW! No comparison folks, the life of the music is in the Supratek! I really can't wait to get my Cortese now. Hard to believe it is going to get even better. |
Hey Slowhand,glad you have your Syrah back!im truly enjoying my Chard,now to roll the tubes!! ps. hope you get your Cortese soon! |
Just recieved an e-mail from Mick. He says he is being delayed because he is waiting for cabinets. He said special orders take longer. I ordered the Seaoak with black top and gold knobs. At least I have my Syrah back to enjoy. Now I am waiting for a new cartridge to arrive. I bent the cantiliever on my dynavector. I have a ZYX R100 Yatra low output (.24mv) that should arrive about May 15. |
My Cab has an intermittent problem :(
After about 10 mins warm up the right channel starts to drop out radnomly and only for a split second. Some times l get some static and noise too, even the occcasional subsonic thump. Even when its not dropping out something doesnt sound right from the right channel, like some freq's are compressed, kinda hard to put my finger on what's missing.
Amps off to Mick today, hopefully its a quick fix because l am ecstatic with my system which for the time being is collecting dust!
Cheers Simon |
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Simon,
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Have you tried dropping in another pair of 6sn7's ? You might want to try that before sending it over to Mick.
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Rgds,
Larry
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Mondie - I had a similar problem with my Cabernet. One channel would shutdown after 10 minutes of playing. It turned out to be a bad regulator tube. I replaced the tube and all has been good since. 10 minutes would be about the amount of time it would take a tube to warm up. |
Thanks for the suggestions guys.
l did swap the tubes around but didnt have any spares to try. Made no difference, problem is always with the same channel.
Packed it up yesterday and shipped it off. Mick should have it by the end of the week. |
For Chenin owners, I have some input regarding tube rolling for this specific model. For three months, I accumulated a lot of tubes and tried different combinations. Here are my observations.
The Bendix 6106 does not work for me. For CD source, it’s okay but not on phono. The 6106 produces a “chugging sound” on my phono section. No other rectifiers I tried (6L6GC, 6F6G, 7581, KT-66, and 5881) gives me this chugging sound on the phono section. I settled for the Mullard 5AR4 metal base on my applications. I had great results with the 5V4(RCA) tubes as well. For the 6F6G’s, it gives a lot of detail. But I noticed that it is “lean” on the phono application especially horn sounds. Vocals seem not as full as the 6L6G’s. This is probably why Mick said that it is only good for linestage. On CD’s, the 6F6G’s are open, airy, and detailed.
The biggest surprised I had was the Sovtek Kt-66 that Mick suggested. Right out of the bat in phono application, the tubes as regulators has the weight of the 6L6G’s (RCA) and very close to airy-ness to the 6F6G’s with good detail. It is not lean sounding at all and the horns (especially saxes) have a big bold sound. These are the tubes I am using at present (at about 30 hours now) and have the RCA 6L6GC black plates as reserve. Very good on CD as source as well.
For the linestage, my vote goes to the Tungsol Vt-231, RCA Gray Glass VT-231, and Sylvania tall bottle VT-231. The Sylvania 6SNW (short bottle) is great with a lot of slam which I find artificial (my preference only) at times just like the Kenrad VT-231’s. Other noteworthy linestage tubes I like are the JAN Raytheon Black Plates VT-231. It seems that most if not all bottom getter VT-231/6SN7 gives great results in this position and micro-phonics was not a problem.
In the phono section, I settled for the Telefunken CCa in the 6922 position. Followed closely by Amperex “A” frame, Siemens 6922 from 1972 and below vintage, and the Amperex Bugle boy’s.. Forget the 1980’s Mullard CV types. They are flat on vocals and ear piercing on the highs. Another great tube for this position is the Mullard ECC88 BVA from the 60’s or earlier. The only problem was that out of 5 pairs I accumulated, three of them are micro-phonic (you can determine this easily by switching to phono and turning the volume knob all the way to the max to listen for tube rush on the speakers with your ears pressed to it). Another good one is the Philips Miniwatt or the regular Philips 6922.
In the 6C4 position, nothing beats the Mullard M8080. I tried RCA, Motorola, Tungsol, Rogers, Sylvania, Raytheon, and GE’s. JAN or otherwise, the M8080 beats them easily with a very big soundstage and great tone. It just sounds right to me! I would say that the M8080 is on the the top of the heap followed closely by Sylvania GB 6135 and Raytheon 6C4’s.
There you have it. All of my observations are based on my system (Jolida CD player using Sylvania GB 5751 and Teres 255 with OL Silver and Shelter 901). Of course, your preference can be way different than mine.
regards |
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Abe,
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Nice job on the review of the various tubes. Thanks for the time and energy put into this and sharing it with all of us.
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Rgds,
Larry
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Larry,
Pleasure is all mine to give back something to our "community". I was in trouble once when I received the preamp, and with the help from people like you (and Ecclectique, Jazzdude, Bwhite, Slowhand, and the rest of the gang which will take me a while to name all)assuring me how good the Supratek is, the preamp will never survived in my system. Thank God I hang in there. Now, the preamp merry-go-round for me is over (for 13 months now and counting!)
Of course, extending patience until the preamp settled down before tube rolling really help a lot. I later found out that it is not the pre that I am having problem with but another component. But that is another story. I will continue on experementing and hopefully I can contribute my positive experiences to the board.
regards,
Abe |
im still amazed at how the sound changes when i move ICs around with the Chard. in my system,thanks Slowhand for starting this thread,otherwise no telling how many preamps i would have gone thru to reach this level.Only downside is now i want to upgrade my speakers and replace my Integra universal player for a dedicated CD player,if i ever upgrade my preamp ill move up the Supratek line! |
OK, its Sat. nite i will try to leave the house tonight,,,,i must find food and a woman,,,i will turn off my Chard at least an hour before i venture out,and cover up my Chard. so she cant seduce me into turning her back on!GEEZ is this normal? help! |
.....it's been quiet here lately......everybody's been tube rolling or what?
enjoy the music! |
OK, I'll go. My Grange was shipped yesterday. Can't wait. |
neither can we. tell us what you think of it after a few days. |
I received my Cabernet yesterday. Even in the first two hours, I couldn't help but grinned and thought how wonderful this preamp is. I will reserve from going into details, but simply put it brings life to the music and exceeds all my expectations.
A question for Supratek owners who are also using Berning amps. At what settings do you set the amp for optimum sound. I have mine at normal and 12 o'clock for volume setting. At that level there's no noise or microphonics. I would like to turn the volume (amp) up more, but then it gets very noisy. The Berning manual cautioned about overloading the high level stages in the preamp. Am I running any risks by not turning the volume all the way up on the amp? |
Nice to see some traffic here. I am in my fifth month, happily waiting on a Cabernet. I love reading and researching while I wait, all the details to follow. |
Hey guys ,Congrads on recieving your preamps!!!!! |
Mhu,
I own the Berning ZH270. I use the normal setting and run the volume wide open. This effectively eliminates both volue controls being in circuit. I find that the music has much more dynamics to it this way. Yes it does limit how far you can turn up the volume on the preamp and you may get a little more background hiss, but I find this to be a small tradeoff for the increase in dynamics. |
Hello all,
This is my first post to this thread. Looking for a tube preamp that has a home theater pass through, I happened upon the Supratek and now my appetite has been wet. I read on Mick's website that the Chenin has a pass through for home theater, but couldn't determine if the Cortese has one as well. My important question for anyone who can help me is how well either of these preamps will match with my beloved Pass Aleph's. (2 Aleph 5s driving the top end and a pair of Aleph 2s driving the bottom end of a tri-amped configuration (Speakers are the Waveform Mach 17). These are single ended solid state class a amps of late 1990 vintage. Has anyone had experience using the supratek preamp with the Pass Aleph's
Thanks,
Michael |
As some of you know, l have been the very happy owner of a Supratek Cabernet pre amp now for about 4 months.
Prior to purchasing the Supratek l was close to buying a passive pre amp. Not the traditional stepped resistor type but a transformer based system. The one that seemed to garner the most consistent praise is the Bent Audio NOH. Its made in Canada and in the end l lost my nerve on tking a US$2k chance and went with the Supratek. l am enjoying my Supratek immensley but after it developed an intermittent cut out in the right channel neseciating a return for repair l got to wondering about the NOH. Not much to go wrong there
Bent Audio have recently ceased production of the NOH so l placed a WTB on an owners forum and within days had located a unit for sale in Hong Kong. l have decided to take the plunge and decide for myself once and for all if TVC is for me. My system has way too much gain so is ideally suited.
Expecting the NOH in the next week. Within a month there will either be a mint near new Supratek or Bent NOH looking for a new home
BTW the Supratek was only suffering from a loose wire, be interesting to see if thats its downfall!! |
Slowhand, the tubes have quiet down a lot since the first night. The noise was probably also in part due to the regulator tube not being seated properly. The norm setting with volume all the way up now seems to work for me too, thanks.
The soundstage has opened up quite a bit, and lifeless recordings now have a natural presence. I'll report back after 300 hours or so. Hard to imagine it will get better, and I'm still in the first 30 hours/stock tubes.
Also, a thanks to Jazzdude for taking the time to answer my questions when I was going through the purchasing decision. Boy, am I glad I did. |
Can't say I have heard the Supratek with the Pass labs gear, but I would think it would sound great together. As for the theater pass through on the Cortese, Mick hand builds all preamps to your needs. |
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Mhu,
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No Worries. Your Cabernet will get much, much better in the next 2-300 hours and then the NOS tubes will take it to yet another level.
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Prepare you drool bucket now while there is still time.
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Congratulations
Rgds, Larry
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I have the Cabernet for about five months now and yesterday I finally unplugged the 6f6g's and put in the 350B's. (I have been resisting the temptation until yesterday - after a bottle of Cabernet Sauvignon^_^). The 350B's brought the sonic performance to another level, or I should say several levels up. Now I am wondering what would happen when the tubes arrive that magical 300-hour mark?
Cheers,
Kenji |
Mhu - i'm really glad you like the cabernet so much. i would just leave it on and playing at low levels so you can rack up the burn-in time quickly. i got about 4500 hours on my cabernet and it sings like you wouldn't believe.
everyone - i am tweaking the system a bit. wrapping up a home audition of a dac. when i put my EVS dac back in the system i decided to place some EVS step attentuators on the outputs. don't know about others but my system is high-gain and i could never get the supratek volume above 30%. so i attentuated the source signal to the point that i could use most of the volume on the supratek. it just allows me to hear more of the cabernet in the system and less of the dac's outputs. boy is it ever smokin good now. this calls for some espolon anejo and an ashton vsg.
also noticed now that i can turn up the volume on the supratek that i can hear rfi from the supratek remote bleeding through the system. of course this only happens when i'm actually using the remote. so it isn't a cause for alarm just curiosity. |
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Jazzdude,
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Glad your Cabernet is doing so well for you. Thanks for sharing about using the step EVS attenuators on the outputs.....very intersting.
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Thanks,
Rgds,
Larry
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if you ask for it mick can also put a step attentuator on the inputs of the supratek to attentuate the incoming source signal. i have one on mine but never used it because i thought it was a gain attentuator. |
Hello,
My remote control isn't working. Mick says the volume pot needs to be centered. Can someone go into details as to how I would do this? I've opened up the preamp but having no luck centering the volume pot. Thanks. |
Hello guys,whenever i touch the volume knob on my Chard i get a hum,if im touching something metal on my system it goes away,just started doing it today!any thoughts,i recently had to center the volume knob im wondering if something came loose inside,also seems more microphonic than usual,i will email Mick,just thought id ask here first |
Reveiw; Supratek Cabernet vs Bent Audio NOH TVC
l have been the owner of a Cab now for about 6 months and enjoyed it immensly in that time. At the time of purchase it was the Cab or a NOH. l went looking for a used NOH a few weeks ago because l wanted to know once and for all what was possible with a good passive. l am glad l did : )
l have had the NOH 3 days now in my system and find it stunning. l have never gained so much enjoyment from listening to music, so much so that l tingle with excitement everytime l get to the opportunity for a listen. Everytime l find switching back to my Supratek lowers the fun factor, the naturalness disappears to a significant degree. Its like the Supratek is adding a level of coloration and unnatural drive, l don't know how else to explain it. On some tracks l find the lower octaves softer and more natural through the NOH and on others l find them to be deeper and more extended. l have no way of explaining that other than to say that whatever the Supratek is adding to the sound manifests itself differently on different recordings and frequencies. In all other areas the NOH is simply way superior.
l have only owned the Supratek for 6 months and remember the huge step-up in performance over my ARC SP-9. l think l have gained almost the same level of improvement again. For anyone who has experienced the entrancing vocal reproduction capabilities of a pair of Lowther horns, well l have moved a step closer to that IMO holy grail except l also have the bass, dynamics and visceral impact that Lowther's cant manage. l am a convert!
DISCLAIMER; There are many who claim the Supratek Cabernet is up there with the best pre's available and that may very well be the case. Passive only works in the right system. You need a high gain source and good impedance matching between source and power amp if you are to have any chance of success. l am sure in 90% or more of listeners systems they would much prefer the Supratek for these reasons. The fact that l am feeding such a high gain signal to my Supratek and needing to use its built in attenuator to lower this signal is far from ideal and no doubt in my system the Supratek is not giving its best. Mick from Supratek recommends having this attenuator at either position 1 or 2 for best performance, l have to have it at 6 (maximum cut) or else my system distorts. That gives you an idea of just how many volts are coming out of my modified AudioNote DAC. The only way to fix this is get a different DAC, not an option as l love the AudioNote and now having experienced the NOH, l doubt l could even get close going that route. The bottom line is, do you research before spending the money to have a go at passive as its not for every system.
The Cab is on the markt if anyone is looking for a bargain.
Cheers Simon |
Problem solved ,i dropped one of my 6sn7 tubes while changing them,worked good for a while,but they were causing the problem,because it affected both channels i did not think it was a tube,live and learn! |
Simon, is your keyboard broken? All your 'I's are showing up as 'l's. |
Mondie - 2 questions. how did the cabernet sound when you placed the bent between the source and cabernet and used the bent to attentuate the source signal instead of the cabernet's built-in attentuator? did you ever get around to rolling tubes in the cabernet?
normally it is a good thing when a component does not leave an identified signature on the music. unless i am misreading your last post it sounds like like system matching was a problem. |
Has anyone tried the 5Y3 tube in the rectifier postion on your Supratek? My niece's husband Carl bought an old tube radio at an antique store to gut it and turn it into a speaker cabinet for his guitar amp. Inside the radio were some old tubes covered with dust. One of the tubes was a Tung Sol 5Y3. Carl cleaned the tube up and brought it over thinking maybe I could use it. I put it in the rectifier position along with 6f6g's as regulators and Sylvania VT-231's in the line stage. WOW! I was blown away from the first note. This tube tested good in my friends tester, but has probably not been played in 45 or 50 years.
I played the remastered cd of Brian Bromberg's It's About time first. The speed at which Brian is playing the upright bass is amazing and this tube compliment really brought that forward. Freddie Hubbard's Flugalhorn on track 6 has the most beautiful tone. Brian's bass is very articlulate and very deep. Next I played Johnny A's Get Inside CD. The sound from top to bottom is the best I have heard form my Syrah! I have not even put in my Tung Sol round plates. This tube combo is better than the 6f6g's, Tung Sol round plates, and Bendix 6106 combo that I have been using. A big thanks goes out to Carl for bringing this tube over for me to try. KILLER SOUND! ABSOLUTE KILLER! |
Slowhand - the 5y3 is a directly-heated full-wave rectifier. like all directly-heated recitifier it doesn't have a slow startup. this means that every time you power on the preamp you are stripping the cathodes. it damages your tubes and i believe the preamp's capacitors also. the sound you describe is typical of directly-heated recitifiers. most people prefer the sound of directly-heated recitifiers. if you choose to continue using it i wouldn't power the preamp down. |
Slowhand... Pay attention to Jazzdude's post here! Good catch Jazzdude. I wouldn't worry about damaging the capacitors, however as Jazzdude correctly pointed out....you must leave your preamp powered up or you will certainly experience a premature tube life of both the regulators and the 6sn7's. I do concurr with your observations of it's sound though, exactly the reason why I use the Bendex 6106 as my rectifier of choice in both the syrah and the cortese. The bendex 6106 specs out closer to the 5y3 electrically than any of the recommended "indirectly" heated rectifiers, It was developed exclusively for the US military to be used as a direct sub for the 5y3.Interesting though: Before I discovered the 6106, I was so very impressed with the sound of the 5y3, I would power up the syrah for about 1/2 an hour with the mullard gz34 in place and then "quicky" sub in the 5y3 to prevent the cathode stripping Jazzdude is alluding to. |
That's a "bummer" guys. I really love the sound of this combo of tubes. David, when you talk about "quickly" subbing in the 5y3, do you leave the preamp on and pull out the GZ34 and put in the 5y3? Can you clarify that for me, and does it harm the preamp or tubes? I thought I heard somewhere that the Supratek can be ran without a tube in the rectifier position, although it is not recommended. Thanks for bringing this to my attention Jazzdude. |
Just received my tricked up Grange last week. Order was placed in late November. Be patient; it is well worth the wait. |
Hi Slowhand. No.......without a rectifier, the preamp would not power up. No rectifier = no power. The rectifiers's duty is to convert the AC voltage[ 115-120 volts alternating current] from the wall plug to 6 volts DC [direct current] for operating the other tubes in the preamp. The regulator tubes[6L6,6f6 etc] are used to smooth the residual ripple in the dc voltage "after" the rectifier has converted the ac to dc. If you want to use the preamp with the 5y3 for rectification duty, there is a proceedure you can use to prevent or minimilize any cathode stripping of the other tubes. It's a bit of an inconvenience but it can be done. Power up the preamp for at least 5 minutes with the stock rectifier,this allows the other tubes to slowly turn on and stabalize in the circuit.Then turn off the preamp and quickly insert the 5y3 in place of the gz34 and turn it back on "immediately". "NOTE" Please understand that I am "not" recommending substitution of the stock rectifier with the 5y3 or any other directly heated rectifier for that matter! Warming the cathodes or heaters of the 6sn7's and the regulation tubes with the recommended rectifiers will minimilize the cathode stripping of those tubes. Cathode stripping is caused by the tubes being subjected to a blast of full voltage before they have had a chance to warm up and stabilize themselves in the circuit. Man...O... man.... Mick would surely be rolling his eyes if he reads this post! |
Hello WcMustang, Congrats on your new acquisition. Tricked up? Can you elaborate. Did you order it with the px4 directly heated triode? I too am considering buying one myself. I have never heard the tube in a preamp stage however I have played with the a few px25 triodes over the years. These directly heated triodes, when used in an output stage of an amplifier have an incredible purity to them,amazing resolution of very fine micro detail and nuance that most output tubes only hint at. Hope you will post your thoughts after break in.... really looking forward to it! |
About a year and a half ago (or so), I emailed Mick and asked him what upgrades he had done to the Chardonnay. He told me that the biggest upgrade he had made was switching to Auricap capacitors. He told me which two caps would make the biggest difference to change in my pre and I switched them for Auricaps. Noticeable improvement.
Well, I have been hankering to try Mundorf Silver Supremes in the Auricap position for at least six months. Well, I finally put them in this week. &%*#@$$! What a difference.
The Mundorfs simply blew the Auricaps away. There was a nice improvement when I put the Auricaps in, but to say there is an improvement with the Mundorfs is an understatement. These caps sound like a component upgrade!
The 3D palpability is greatly increased, great clarity overall, turned my subwoofer down due to increase in bass resolution, considerably deeper soundstage and greater separation of instruments. One of the best changes I have ever made.
Some time ago, I bypassed the selector switch and I am now going straight from the CD input to a DACT (highly recommended). The DACT and the straight input made a big difference in clarity. The Mundorfs made a bigger difference everywhere! The music just flows now.
I highly recommend taking 30 minutes to change a couple of caps if you are so inclined. My Chardonnay doesn't even sound like the same pre. |
Ecclectique,
Yes PX4 direct heated triodes plus 76 in place of the standard 6SN7 (huge difference) and a few other minor tweaks. It is the only Grange of its kind in the world.
Audio has been a hobby of mine for 42+ years and words cannot describe the sound but perhaps this does:
(UFB)2
Gotta go and listen |
Hi Fiddler. I have an order in for the welbourne labs attenuator,unfortunately they are in a back order position at present. Anyone tried it in a supratek yet? Thanks for the tip on the Mundorfs. |
Ecclectique:
"I have saved the best for last as rewiring the tube socket is in order here to accomodate the 7193! The 7193 triode is a strange looking octal tube with plate and grid caps on the the top of the glass. These are electrically equivalent to a 6j5 single triode or 1/2 of a 6sn7. They were munufactured by RCA, NU, kenrad and tungsol as far back as the early 1930's.Many were used in old Juke boxes in their day as well as some early 50's tv sets. This tube just stomps on any 6sn7! Simply said.... there is no going back once you hear it. It's like comparing a telefunken ecc803 to a ge 12ax7, or a we350b to a 6L6. Halographic like no other,dead quiet,microphonics are non existant, super liquidity with incredible clarity,a silky sweet top end that floats into your room,the bass energy and drive of the kenrad vt-231 but far crisper and 3 times as tight. I use the cortese in my main system with my very efficient Tannoy Westminster's driven by VAC pa-90 monos employing the genelex kt-77 output tube. With the 6sn7's in the preamp I have very little room for play with the volume control whereby a single 6j5 is perfect for my application. I have unsoldered the other socket whereby I use only 1 6j5/channel."
You really got my attention with this post.
I have the gain on the "low" setting on my Chardonnay and I still can't turn the volume up past 9 o'clock. I would love detailed info on how to convert my Supratek to use the 7193.
I would appreciate any feedback you have time to provide. |
Hi Fiddler. To employ the 7193 in the chardonnay one would have to drill a hole beside each tube socket to accommodate the wiring to the caps . Probably not so good if you ever wanted to sell it. I run my wiring up through the extra tube socket of my cortese as mine is configured for a pair of single triodes/channel as opposed to the single socket dual triode 6sn7 versions . Another way would be to run the extra wiring down from the bottom of the chassis and up the sides if you want to give it a try.The good thing here is the operating points of this family of single triodes [6j5,6c5,6p5,2c22,7193 etc] are the same as the 6sn7 whereby no modifications are necessary to the circuit of the 6sn7 based suprateks. Perhaps you might want to try a 6j5, 6c5, or the 6p5 first as they don't require the grid caps, the wiring change is relatively very simple and would certainly allow you a lot more flexibilty with your gain. The round plate versions of the 6j5 and 6p5 vacuum tubes as well as the 6c5 meshplates sound better than all of my 6sn7's. Trying a few of them first will certainly allow you to hear the voice of this tube family. As mentioned,the 7193 and the 2c22 need a pair of top caps per tube. These top caps a very difficult to source nowadays and it is imperative that they fit snuggly on the contacts of the tube. Not recommended for those with children or pets. You are more than welcome to email me off line for more imfo. |
Hi Fiddler
You wrote: "I have the gain on the "low" setting on my Chardonnay and I still can't turn the volume up past 9 o'clock."
Please help me understand why it is important to be able to turn the volume past 9 o'clock? My system sounds best with the Chardonnay set to the "high" setting and I hardly play beyond 9 o'clock. |
Fiddler - where did you purchase the Mundorf Silver Supremes? Were the cap values clearly indicated on the caps or did you have to get that info from Mick? Thanks. |
