Power Cord for Power Conditioner

Sorry I was doing some catch up reading on this thread and a page back someone asked about demagging cd's and lps'.

I do both and yes the effect is the same if you use a MC or MM cartridge.
The better the cartridge the better the effect.

Demagging , to my ears, take the jumble out of the music and re-aligns things, sort of does some house cleaning.

No one has ever said they couldn't hear the improvement, regular earred folks and the golden ears, young and old male or female, they all notice that the sound became clearer.

Why it works is really of no concern to me.There are explanations out there for folks who are serious enough to find an answer.I figure it's up to those folks to seek it out not for me to spoon feed them.
But of course they would have to be serious about this.

But as nice as it is to read about power cords and demagging etc,it's necessary to listen for yourself and then come to a conclusion.

I can no more say that you will hear the difference as I can say that you can not.

It's something you have to be willing to experience, and for some folks that's asking too much.

It's so much easier and simpler to take it out of the box plug it into the wall with the attached wires, and play some tunes.
Ahh the simpler times, I was there.
Enjoyed the music.

Now my system is more complex.I had to invest time and money into it.

And what I found out was that the music I was listening to was also more complex and filled with detail I didn't know was even missing before.

Happy New Year and here we go again.

I doubt there's anything new that I can add, but I have some spare time and this is also a good way to re-ignite my brain cells.

Anyway here goes.

I would agree that there would likely be little differences in sound using power cords that were identical in construction , length and materials.

It's when you start fooling around with the design and materials that things get interesting.

I may not be an electrical engineer( I have several friends who are and who use upgraded wires)but I beleive it's been accepted in the scientific community that some metals are better than others at conducting electricity.

They tell me they even have tables and charts to refer to.
How very comforting that is.

So, believing in this, I can now understand why some cables can sound better than others, and that they all don't sound the same.

But then I like to tinker and experiment, and what I found out a long time ago was that I could never make a power cord sound the same as the last one did, if I changed the connectors, or changed the type of wire I used or the way I braided the wires.

What I noticed was that each variation changed the sonics of the sound of the system.
My source component was a single power amp to keep things controlled, I only fooled around with it's power cord.

Now what I heard was a change in certain frequencies within the music.
Some instruments were clearer, sometimes the bass improved, sometimes it was thinner.
Sometimes the cymbals had more shimmer, sometimes they were tinny.
At other times you could hear the sound of wood hitting brass, not rain on a tin roof.
You could hear individual handclaps also,again, you knew it wasn't rainfall that the recording was giving you.

But what I couldn't do was tell what type of wood sticks were used nor the make of the cymbals.

This kind of information I have not been able to retrieve, try as I may,so in this regard the stock power cord is no better or worse than any other power cord.

So,perhaps some folk's expectations of what a high end power cord should do are tilted towards the extreme.

Or perhaps they don't listen for the things that I listen for when I make changes in my system.

Some changes are subtle, but if they clear away some of the mud, then they are doing something better than what was there before.

And if that is found to be the case, then perhaps someonelse can do it better than me.

And I found out that there are several such companies that make power cords that are much better than what I ever made.

And I never found any that sounded the same as mine or the same as the stock cord that came with the amp.

If I adhere to any "belief", it is my belief that some folks can hear differences and some folks can't.

I don't need to seek out validation or proof that what I am hearing is real.
The differences are real to my ears,so no need for proof of their existence.

The ones who can't hear the differences do, however seek validation that such things can't exist, it makes them feel better I suppose, and not so left out of all the fun some of us are having.

And having fun in this hobby is what it's about.

Having fun discovering things that make improvements and let me enjoy my hobby more.

This is the road I've travelled for almost 40 years in this hobby, and if it's all been a delusion, then it's a happy one.
And I don't need measurements or blind test results to validate those feelings.
They are real to me.

I can't believe this tread an issue are still raging on.
In the end there is only one real answer to the Op's question, Bring home a well designed cord on evaluation, ( most dealers have loaners ) if it makes an improvement keep it, if it doesn't take it back.

Hi all ! Lacee , you have made a great effort to convince Jeff that power cords change the sound . If he cannot hear it , he cannot hear it. I was buying some tubes the other day from an old radio collector , he assured me that all tubes sound the same . I paid my $20 , thanked him for the tubes and hit the door. Arguing with them is a waste of time .

Yahooo Rayooo, you'll be flying high!

These are better than my 4 Annaconda Helix versions.

I know because my friend replaced his Annacondas with the CX versions, and sad but true, they are better.

But then his system is much better than mine and is deserving of the best he can afford.

As I am sure yours must be.

Then that settles it, if humans can fly, then a $3500 power cord is a worthwhile investment.

I just ordered 4ea. Shunyata King Cobra CX.

only $14,000 for audio bliss.

What gets me is that the folks who complain the most are the ones who have never even audtioned a decent power cord.

You can't really think you'll be taken seriously if you haven't any experience with power cords.

Saying they can't make a difference, to me,makes me think they were the same types of individuals who claimed that man can't fly.

Fortunately for us, the brothers Wright weren't paying attention to them.

Hi all ! Lacee : I agree 100 % with you . The same guys who cant hear the diff a power cord makes start with the same insults....or my favorite " if you cant measure it , it cant be true" Those comments make me want to pee in my pants they are so funny .

Can't a listen to a decent power cord be all the proof you need?

The EE or electronic trade mags, of which I have as much knowledge of as you have of the latest TAS or Stereophile audio mags,in my estimation, (though with no hard evidence to support this claim), would most likely side with your current stand on upgraded power cords, so in my world each magazine ,audio or EE, would cancel the other out.

You're still left choosing sides, but also still in the dark, because you haven't taken the next step(as far as I know) to actually try a decent power cord on decent gear.
Until you do, all anyone has are two different viewpoints from two different magazines.

The proof is always in the pudding, and if one adheres to scientific priciples, one should do the experiment for themselves .

I am at a loss about the Shunyata measuring device.
But then I don't need measuremnts to back up or disprove what my ears are telling me.

What I have heard with my ears is that entry level Snakes are better than stock PC's and the further up the line the better the Shunyata PC are at getting out of the way and letting more of the music thru.If I'd heard no difference I wouldn't have spent the money, and I didn't convince myself after the deal was done.I went back and bought more when I heard the improvement one made in my system,

Someone has mentioned that it's absurd to use $2000.00 power cords on gear that costs less than the cables.

In theory that makes absolute sense and there's lot's of examples one could make, such as putting the most expensive wheels and performance tires on a Smart Two.

But what if those tires just happen to make the car perform better?

This is the point I try to make.
Over and over.

Most of the time we never have heard how good our gear is because we compromise it with chep wires,and do nothing about all the stuff that "shouldn't have any effect on the sound".

Ever tried an IsoClean or Hi Fi Supreme fuse in any of your gear?

I use them, and when I posted someplace else that they improved my sound, all I got back was the same kind of negative response you get when you post such findings.
At one point I offered to pay for a fuse just so a denier could have a listen and make up his own mind.
That was under $100.00, which I feel isn't a great amount of money to spend on something that will improve your sound.

But, some folks refuse to even try if there is no cost to them or any strings attached.

I only can speculate the reasons why someone would refuse an offer like that, but refuse they did, and refuse any demonstrations of demagging lps and cd's that I offered.

Again they knew these things can't work, even without ever trying them.

Where's the science in that?
Talk about tweaks being all about beliefs?
Denying the benefits of upgraded PC, fuses etc, without trying them is based on nothing but a set of beliefs that says they can't work.
And why?
Because I haven't seen any scientific proof in any of (my)EE journals.

Shunyata to their credit has tried to offer proof that the differences some of us hear can be shown in measurements.
But obviously that is not enough.

For me , irregardless of hype or scientific proof,if I am curious about something I want to know for myself if it works with what I own, and if it does I'll buy it.

Now just because I use a $2000.00 PC and a $100.00 fuse on a $1200.00 2 watt SET amp,why I do so is not just because I can afford to and it's not just about bragging rights(riddicule and hilarious outburts are more like what I expect)I do so because they make that amp sound better than the stock fuse and power cord did.

And the nice thing about upgraded power cords,you can use them on the next amp upgrade and know that the new amp will also be performing as best it can.
So you buy good once and forget it.

If there is any caveat it's that if the other PC are not improved those will seriously limit the performance of the newest upgraded one.The old weakest link advice.

I am not suggesting that everyone goes out and does what I did and run all Annacondas, but when you hear the improvemnt one makes, you want that for all your gear, and the effects are cumulative.

In fact when one starts to upgrade the power delivery starting at the panel with dedicated lines, 20 amp fuses and ten guage solid core wiring, adding the upgraded PC is the final touch.

And every component upgrade (if you still think you need to)will be easier to tell if it is an upgrade or not.

I don't know if any of the EE or electrical journals that you read mention the importanace of such things,but the mags I read do.

Lacee. I read the DTCD stuff/Fremer's article on the cable company's website.

Would like to have one of those free to play with, or access to enough detail to be able to see what the thing actually does. Would love to find out that I was entirely wrong and that a device has now been created which will allow all well built electronics to be made better, this would be a really big deal.

A review in something like popular science or one of the many EE and electronics trade mags would carry some real weight. Else, audio mags are not known for reliable info.

The company isn't well known outside of Canada,which is mainly due to the limited runs of the conditioners the result of extensive time spent in the real world outside of our little niche group of audiophiles.

You perhaps should pick up the latest edition of 'Phile- and read M.Fremers description of the new Shunyata power conditioners and learn about DTCD, which is the first device to be able to produce the kind of validation you are seeking.

He states the naysayers will still have their doubts even when confronted with the first measurable differences between power cords(and fuses), but they wanted proof, so here it is.

Perhaps you will find the new edition of Phile well worth the cost of the mag, or you could read it for free at the nearest Chapters.
I am not out to sell magazines for anyone.

I could say that my intent is just to enlighten others who have yet to discover the merits of a decent power cord and for the fence sitters to try one for themselves and make up their own minds.

I gain nothing by sharing my positive expereince,and am at a loss why others so persistantly deny that there can be any difference, good or bad.What's in it for them to do so?

You've stated, all components change over the years.At least you acknowledge that fact, most power cord deniers won't even go that far and say the whole "burn in" thing is a hoax.

So perhaps it's time for you to actually go out and borrow a decent power cord and have a listen.You don't have to buy one, there are lots of companies with trial periods and let's not forget to support our local brick and mortar audio stores.

My local store allowed me to audition power cords and over the course of a few days, (not one switch, a quick listen and out it goes)you get the feel for what the cable is doing.

At the very least, you could butcher one of those molded PC's and put a couple of decent ends on it and then compare that to a stock power cord.

If you can notice a difference between a hot rodded and stock PC, then you should have a bit of an idea about what you can expect from the better power cords.

Or like I said you could pick up the latest Stereophile and pick up where you left off.

Some things have changed in the interim.

"Look at how many different sounding amplifiers there are today, that on paper all measure the same."

That is actually just something someone made up, I guarantee it did not come from an electronics/measurement type person.
The goal of a good manufacturer is to control quality to the point where there aren't measurable differences between components that are supposed to be identical (e.g. mono blocks), but there are measurable differences even when everything that can be done to prevent them is done. The other thing is that your components are constantly changing, a twelve month old amp will not measure exactly the same as it did the day you bought it. All devices (resistors, inductors, capacitors, transformers, etc.) are constantly either breaking in or breaking down and no two devices are ever exactly the same. The bright side is that as long as things don't get too far out of tolerance specifications, nobody can hear the difference.
I quit stereophile quite a while back, but they used to make amp measurements if you wish to confirm that no too amps of different design measure the same.

"Some things have yet to be measured and sound is one of them."

If it can't be recorded/measured then there is no way for it to be played back on your stereo.

"You'll hear what bad specs sound like and what good specs sound like,"

Interpreting good versus bad is where things get really interesting and also get to be very much about personal preference.

"But this is just falling on deaf ears(literally) if you feel that all amps sound the same."

Even if I believed that I'd still be forced to admit that they measure differently and I couldn't debate you. It is the opposite of the power cord thing.

I'm not going to comment on your reference to the specific company and individual. I think it is aok for you to bring it up in a positive sense though (and as far as I know this may be a great company).

Jeff have you ever heard the sound that measurements make ?

Do measuring instruments have a sound,like amplifiers do?

Look at how many different sounding amplifiers there are today, that on paper all measure the same.

Some things have yet to be measured and sound is one of them.

No one has heard the perfect replica of the original event and there is no absolute benchmark of what it is.

Unlike the lab gear you hold in such high regard, hifi gear isn't just a function of meeting the specs.

You'll hear what bad specs sound like and what good specs sound like, and sometimes a poorly speced amp(like some SET amps) sounds more realistic inspite of this. anomoly.

But this is just falling on deaf ears(literally) if you feel that all amps sound the same.

And the same can be said for power cords.

I know of one manufacturer of a line conditioner who now sources his wire direct from Germany because it not only measured better than what he had been using, but also sounds better.

This wire is the type of wire that is used in several research labs in Germany.
The manufacturer of the line conditioners was a cable skeptic,until he came across this wire.He revamped his product and now uses this industrial wire exclusively.

Audio is just a hobby sideline from his real profession as an industrial engineer setting up lab measuring devices throughout the world.Devices whose reliabilty depend on the quality of the electricity being fed into it.

The man is Ed Wolkow, his sideline is Foundation Research.

"Some folks are about sound, some are about measurements and seldom do the twain meet."

Agreed, but power cords don't know the difference between signal amplification for sound and signal amplification for measurement or any other purpose. Either they change the output of well designed equipment (putting research, medical diagnosis, and etc. at risk) or else they don't.
Would be interesting to visit someplace at the heart of state of the art electronics, say fermilab, and see if you can find one single 120v power cord that was beyond what you can buy at wall-mart.

Jeff, our hobby is about sound.

Sure measurements matter,and so it goes.
Some folks are about sound, some are about measurements and seldom do the twain meet.

Sort of like politics.

Now , I think that your workplace would be the ideal location to insert a few upgraded power cords.

Then you can "listen" to hear the difference they make.

Oh, sorry about that,in your case it's not about the sound is it,so you are stuck with trying to let the measurements "speak" to you.

Like I said , two different worlds.

Hmm, noticed that Lacee's favorite power cable manufacturer was using a Yokogawa oscilloscope for some development work.

I've got the same scope in our shop at work (and its big brother) and they come with a low cost detachable power cord. Depending on measurement location ours are often also tied to a really long extension cords, sometimes even a string of two or three.

I guess that since power cords change the output of quality electronics, all of the scope measurements are meaningless unless referenced to a specific power cord?? Weird that manufactures of measurement equipment for industry and medical services & etc don't know this stuff.

Hi all ! It does also make the component tunable .Many owners manuals talk about replacing the stock cord with an aftermarket cord . Hint : It isnt because the component manufacturers and the cable manufacturers are sleeping together .

"A removable power cord simply makes components easier to package and install."

It also makes it allot easier to ship worldwide to places that use a different style plug in the wall - or else each unit would need to be constructed for the specific country it is going to.

Hi all ! Well said once again , Lacee . I have stopped wondering much about how any component sounds ,especially amplifiers . I can pretty much make it sound anyway I want it to with cords and feet , etc . I still find it pretty amazing guys spend all this money on components and can't hear the difference a power cord makes , then they argue and call it snake oil.

When I started out in this hobby I would read the reviews and if something was on my wish list I made apoint of travelling to a shop that would allow me to listen.

I can't say my impressions were as glowing as most of the reviews, but then as I started to get more experienece I started to tune in some of the things they were talking about, and with some mentoring from some more well healed and knowledgeable audiophiles, I began to separate the mumbo from the jumbo.

Much the same with power cords, lots of mumbo jumbo.Much has been written about their effects and yet there's still a few folks who say they can't make any difference.
Have they tried them?
Usually not,they just know better than to waste any money on them.

Now I've even read that the molded power cords are superior because they won't corrode as fast, hence degrade the sound.

Ever look at the inside of the cheap molded power cords?
Not a pretty sight, nor do they make the best case for quality materials or workmanship.

Sorry I'll take a bit of corrosion that I can clean and see before a plug with hidden innards of dubious quality.

I don't know how air tight my Shunyata Annacondas are, or if they have degraded over time from inner corosion.
Perhaps someone from Shunyata could shed some light on this latest bit of paranoia.

What I do know and not believe is that they sound better than any of my previous power cords,and that includes the molded ones and any of my DIY power cords.

And in a direct comparison of Shunyata power cords using headphones,as I moved up the line, the better the sound got.

I heard it and once heard, I couldn't go down the line.
If there were no differences I could have saved a bundle and stayed at the entry level.

I didn't configure my entire system with them for any other reason other than that they made the system sound better than without them.

Everything has a sonic set of strengths and weaknesses.
You like some more than others, to say that a power cord is just a tone control is only partly true and there's no shame in that if the power cord lets the all tone thru and doesn't hinder it, as so many mediocre molded cords do.

If a power cord adds sparkle or adds more meat,that's not to say that it's a fault of the power cord, just proof they can all interact differently with what they are plugged into.Proof they are not the same, and nice to know that we don't have to settle for whatever "colour" the molded ones are giving us.

If stock power cords are fine for you, then use them, they cost you nothing, they were free, they do the job of bringing your gear to life, they will allow the music to play.

But if you can afford to spend a little or a lot more for some aftermarket power cords, the sky is the limit to what music is yet to be heard.

I know a few folks who stay on the merry go round and swap out amps all the time and are never satisfied with the new amp purchase.

I wonder if the reason lies with the stock molded power cord they refuse to part with and insist is perfectly suitable for the job?

Hi all ! Well said ,Lacee . I do trust my ears very ,very much . There used to be a time when I trusted what other people said more than what my own ears heard . Just last night I was changing power cords on my cd player . I took out a #4 Vansevers cord and put in a silver LAT CORD . The Vansevers cord makes my system as dark as night , the LAT cord adds sparkle to the top end that is quite strong . Do I think I hear this difference ? NO WAY ....the difference is clear , even to my girlfriend .

I can see the reasons why people like blind listening tests.
Visuals do cause folks to think that the big fat cables are the better ones, or that the big expensive speaker just has to sound the best, etc.

It's been proven with other things also,such as switching wine labels,and some folks thinking the 2 buck chuk in the upscale bottle was in fact the real deal.

Visual influences do marr one's perception.

And so it is when the cost of what you are comparing is made known.

Somehow the only blind listening tests that are ever mentioned are the tests where the "panel of experts" preferred the cheapest power cords for example.

In fact those tests are the only ones I've read about.The myth busters proving once again that costly power cords are ripp offs.

What about tests where the pricey cables are preferred?
Somehow ,saddly, we never seem to read about them.
It seems people prefer to read about giant killers and el cheapo cables beating out the high end brands.

Anyone posting anything positive about a name brand upgraded PC is either labeled a shill , a lunatic or both.

I know I've been called that.

I came to the effects of power cords and power upgrades a little late in my audio journey, and that;s a shame.

Had I known how much they play in the final sound of what's powered by them I never would have sold some fabulous gear over the years.

The flaws that I always attributed to the amps, for example, were really flaws in the delivery of the power to them.

I now understand the importance of good power delivery because I have recently enjoyed some rather modest power amps more than I did the costly exotic amps with no upgraded power delivery.

Those old amps if given the same upgraded power delivery that I now use, would surely swing things more in favour of them.But that's spilled milk and all part of the learning curve.

When people get serious about improving the gear they have using better power cords and improving the power to their gear, the search for the absolute sound tends to be over, and you spend more time enjoying the sound that you already have.

I'm not knocking the whole audio thing about swapping amps and speakers,the chase is a big part of the hobby and it's a learning experience.
And after you've been thru a lot of systems like I have you start to find out that changing A for B isn't the answer, because some things never change elsewhere and remain a constant, such as the same stock power cord, or wallplug set ups and this seriously hinders any efforts at improved sound from that new Stereophile A lister.

Sometimes it's quite obvious when you make a switch in components,and not as obvious as when everything is muddied up by poor power delivery.
So ,I am a bit sceptical of double blind tests for the above reason.

What I would find interesting would be a new test, whereby a panel of "experts" were left with the challenge of discerning if the music they heard was any different when played thru a dedicated line and a stock electrical line as found in most homes.

Then do a serious of tests with power cords and conditioners on the two different lines and see what the outcome is.

What I would assume is that there will be some folks who prefer the sound of cheap power cords and some who like the expensive ones and that no one will be able to tell which is which.
And what this means to me is that an expensive power cord hasn't been proven to be inferior to a cheap one.

It proves to me that preference of one over the other means that there were perceived differences between the cords.It doesn't prove that the cables all sounded alike.

If the panel says they all sound the same, then I would have to say that the panel of "experts" may have been influenced if they knew the cost of the cables.
Again the old myth buster mentality.
So I wouldn't disclose the cost of the cables in the test, because this would have just as much influence on the tests outcome as seeing the cables and knowing what brands they were.

My only beef with DBT is that I don't think that prior tests were an accurate indication of anything, and the more information given to the panels, the more flawed the tests.

Somehow the DBT hasn't been revisted in a few years, and only these old "anti" everything expensive ones are all that is reported and held as gospel.

I think it's time for some new ones,based on a few of the guidelines I've mentioned.

Eventhough I know that in the end it's all about preference, at least the playing field won't be skewed with lousy noisey power straight from the wall.

I am certain that the comparison of the results of power cords tested on both lines would be intersting to say the least.

"Either you trust the ears or you don't."

If you don't blind test there is no way to know if you are trusting your ears, outside of faith and hope which another person mentioned and which I continue to think of as everyones right and privilege.

There are already long debates on this website exploring why audio is the singular pursuit in the known universe where proven valid testing methods shouldn't be used and known erroneous tests should be accepted.

Do agree with "trickery works both ways", if the testing means are insufficient then any conclusion is questionable.

I think trickery works both ways.

You can convince yourself that you don't hear any differences also.

Some of the reasons are, a lack of funds to swim with the big fish,gear that just isn't resolving enough to hear differences,no hands on experience, but you "know" it just can't be, relying on "facts" and acepting old and flawed blind listening tests as proof.
This one kills me.

You think our ears can be tricked into thinking that one power cord is better than the other, so we shouldn't trust our ears.
Yet, and this is what kills, you accept reports of people using their ears who fail to hear differnces as gospel.

Can you have it both ways?

Either you trust the ears or you don't.

If you don't trust the ears of those who say they hear improvemnts, then I'll say that I don't trust the ears of those who don't.

I'll close by stating that the majority of people who "believe" there can be no differences, are in fact the only folks who have developed their opinons based on a belief system.
As most of them have never even bothered to try upgraded power cords in their systems.
And why not?
Because they believe it will not work.

A belief based on no first hand experience,just acceptance of opinions from people with beliefs the same as their own.

Everything makes a difference and if a person can't hear a difference, then they or their gear are the reason behind it.

Jump on Elrod Gold NOW!!

Hi all ! I gotta kinda disagree here a little Jeff . I think some do "trick" themselves into hearing improvements . Once you have gained the experience on how to listen there is no "tricking". Like they say.....it either is or it aint .

>>Audiophilia is about faith and hope, not evidence. :)<<
"To me , listening is a learned skill ."

I think a lot of it is also about training yourself to believe you hear improvements. Making your music sound better is fun and rewarding and it is somewhat based on what happens outside the ears and somewhat based on what happens inside.

If you can continue to 'hear' improvements after you've tweaked all the things that actually improved the sound then it continues the fun part of the hobby. That is certainly everyones privilege.

Hi all ! lots of great input here , we all dont have to agree ! To me , listening is a learned skill . Think of it this way...ever seen the show Chasing Classic Cars ? The dude looks at different cars and he sees things we dont see . Steering wheel not original , flaws in paint , etc . He is seeing stuff we would never see ( or notice ). Listening is the same , it is a learned skill , just like anything else . There was a time when I could not hear the difference between Linn and Rotel CD players . I was listening to the highs , the lows , etc . Finally the sales guys says " dont worry about that stuff ..how does the music FEEL ? Learned a lot that day !

>>Audiophilia is about faith and hope, not evidence. :)<<

well said!

A few years ago, I participated in a DBT of power cords with a bunch of folks. I failed miserably and I think everyone else did also. Did that stop us from buying expensive power cords? Of course not! We shook it off. Audiophilia is about faith and hope, not evidence. :)

More can hear the differnces than not. I really wish I could not have heard the improvements. That would have saved me a bundle.

Hi all ! A few things are certain , cables sound different when the direction is changed . Cables sound different with elevators and with different elevator spacing (due to string resonance ). I you cant hear this then it does not matter what methods are used . Sorry for being so blunt but I am quite tired of hearing about how wires dont have a sound . Many of us can hear it and many of us cant , just the way it us .

Jeff have you ever tried any of the things Bradluke is talking about?

I would agree that if you haven't, then this is all voodoo to you.

You'll never hear a difference a quality power cord makes, until you try several of them.

And casual listening isn't going to cut it.

I am sure Jeff is not a casual, passive audio enthusiast.

You need to go old school, which is not in fashion anymore regrettably.

Audio today is all about the music and not the gear, yet how often is the music second fiddle to multi tasking?

Musak comes to mind.
Just a pleasant background to life's more important endeavours.

When someone posts that he made an improvement by doing this or that,it means to me that he is more than a music loving,albeit, background music loving, individual.

He is involved in the hobby, and is trying to find ways to further improve his listening pleasure, which he takes quite seriously, in my opinion.( I could have used IMOP, but I'm old school).

How can it be all about the music, if you are only willing to go just so far?Which saddly for most in this hobby is just turning the power on and running stock.

Maybe it's just me, but I can't find the sense in investing large amounts of money in music software, and then scrimp on the hardware to play it back on.

Somehow to me that defeats the "it's all about the music" concept.
Because without paying attention to quality gear and using aftermarket upgrades to improve the gear,the music suffers.

But, you have to be more than a music loving casual listener.

It has to be more than just about the music.

It has to be how the music reacts to the gear it is being played thru.

What good is thousands of dollars of recordings if the sound is sub standard because the gear is looked down upon?

Gearheads, as those who are chasing after the illusive audio perfection are often referred to,may have less invested in software, but they mostly enjoy more of the music that is on the recordings they own.

In other words, they are getting ,perhaps 30% more of the music they have paid for than the folks who settle for less when it comes to putting together a decent audio system.

I've always felt that until I get my system to the highest performance ,the music will suffer.If I have 9000 less lp's than the music lover so be it,it's how great the 1000 lp's that I own sound that matters most to me.

But I am old school.

Bradluke0 - Noticed on a couple of other posts that you are also concerned about cable resonances if cable elevators are not spaced correctly and believe that cables have a grain structure which dictates a best direction for the cables.
It is your privilege to believe what you wish, but sometimes when the listening results are consistently outside of the boundaries of explanation it might be worth re-evaluating the listening methods.

Hi all ! Hate to sound a little harsh here...but anyone who cant hear a change in powercords is wasting their money. I would recommend they go buy an all-in-one system and cut their losses . Btw , I live in the Tampa Bay area...any nay sayers can PM me and I can prove it. (just dont ask WHY IT WORKS , I dont know) brad

I have three dedicated lines,two 30 amp and one 20 amp.

I run less than ten feet of 10 guage Romex to two Shunyata receptacles and one FIM.The panel is in my dedicated listening room, no HT., only 2 channel.

I use 3 Annaconda power cords and one Python CX, and use Shunyata Hydra 2 and 8.Also one DIY power cord using the top of the line Furutech recptacles and wires.

My sound has improved,and I don't need to have any measuring devices to prove by how much.
My best indicator is that I listen a lot longer, and my grin is perhaps wider than before I started cleaning up my power.
I should also add that I use HiFi Supremme fuses in all my electronics.

Yes power is a big deal to me.

It never used to be,I was unaware of how much it matters, and I never used power conditioners or upgraded power cords never mind dedicated lines, up until about seven years ago.

But I was happy,and used to scoff at the high cost of this stuff and the claims that were made about it.Things sounded great to my ears.In this case,my ears were playing tricks on me.Or perhaps I had just convinced myself that this was as good as it gets.I think we are all guilty of that from time to time.
Sometimes you need to be exposed to better sounding systems to really get a take on what you are missing out on.

For example,when I heard what paying attention to these things could do for the very first time.

I have a friend with some very expensive electronics and speakers .His system always was way above the rest of our group of audiophile friend's set ups.In fact the total cost of our gear wouldn't come close to his system, and we have some respectable products.
One evening it was sounding even better to all of us,yet nothing we could see had changed.

When pressed for an answer my friend revealed his use of Shunyata power cords and conditioning and a new dedicated line just for the electronics.

This was quite a number of years ago, and at first I thought such improvements would only be noticed on systems costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, as I had just experienced.

After borrowing some of the power cords and conditioners from a Shunyata dealer, I discovered that even a system much humbler could also benefit from improving the power to the gear.

And so began my journey, starting at the panel and ending at the fuse.

In my experience everytime you do something to improve the delivery of power to your gear, the sound improves along with it.
And having said that, it's cumulative.

Take one of the links out of the chain, anywhere in the chain, and the sound will not be as good as when all the pieces fit.
They work together and now for me, are as important as the speaker amp link. To my ears, improving the power cords make more of an audible improvement than spending large on upscale interconnects and speaker wires.

I presume that some folks think the substitution of a single power cord is all they need to do and if that doesn't knock their socks off they think it's all bunk.

A single power cord will improve the sound of what it's connected to, but you still have other gear in the chain.
If that gear uses standard plugs and receptacles and non dedicated lines,then the improvemnt that a single power cord makes will be less pronounced.

This is my take on why some folks are so anti power cord,they just don't go far enough.

If you can't afford to replace all your power cords with top grade ones, then the next best thing to do is make your own,using decent wire and nice upgraded plugs,make them all the same and upgrade your wall receptacles to at least Hubell industry or hospital grade.

If you then notice an improvement(and you should even at such a modest cash outlay)then you'll understand that taking it to the next level isn't just the stuff of fairy tales.

You can quit there or go forward and spend what you like.

Tarjin, No question, for those that are able to have over-rated dedicated lines installed that should always be the priority, before power distribution or after-market power cords are considered. Having two separate 20A dedicated lines is a great base-line because you increase current availability for the system from 15A or 20A to 40A and you can isolate high-current (amps) from low-current electronics on separate lines. Ground loop hum can be avoided by making sure each AC line is of equal distance going back to the panel (this avoids impedance to ground differential that causes hum). For those with dedicated lines, the benefits of decent power-ditribution and AC cords becomes even more noticeable than for those without. This can be explained.

Regardless of whether there are dedicated lines installed or not, whatever the available peak-current measurement is at your wall outlet, you will lose in the neighborhood of 50% of peak current and voltage going through a cheap 14,16 or 18 gauge power cord. There are several reasons for this. Primary among them are the way molded cords are terminated and their insufficient gauge.

Stock AC cords are not crimped or soldered at either end. The blades behind the AC pins in molded cords merely cut through the insulation and scarcely make contact with the wire. This is fine if you are powering a toaster or a light, but AV electronic power supplies pull power dynamically off the peak and trough of the wave-form. Contact integrity at the initial outward AC junctions of an amp for instance, is of paramount importance to preserving peak-current availability to the rectifiers. The longer the rectifiers stay open in order to fill storage caps, the greater potential for high-frequency noise contamination to the power supply (that part is educated theory).

AC delivery to AV gear is a dynamic, two-way process. Components don't sit at the end of a power hose. They represent the inception of an electrical interface. Therefore, near field contact integrity matters as much as contact points and over-rated AC mains downstream from the system.

Large amounts of money need not be spent to make power cord connections with electronics better. There are less expensive DIY options using good connectors and 12 gauge or better wire. There are also less expensive commercial power cords available that don't cost "hundreds of dollars" from any number of companies. This isn't to say that the only purpose of a better power cord is to improve peak-current transfer, but because stock cords are SO poor at this one aspect, it is a fundamental reason people report hearing improvements when using them.

None of this is meant to infer that after-market cords are more critical than dedicated lines; they are not. However, if you consider AC delivery from a "system" approach, power cords are the first outward link in your AC chain, not the last. Whatever sits behind your wall, whatever it might be, is what it is. Better to have a decent cord to the amp (at least) than to measurably lose 50% of whatever peak-current you have available at your outlet. By the way, that is also a reason to spend $25 on a Hubbel 5362 spec grade outlet than the el-cheapo hardware-store special. Huge difference in metal to metal contact area eliminates still more points of near-field resistance.

Hope that clears up more of the "mystery"

Regards,

Grant
Shunyata

In skimming the detailed arguments about power cords, I have not noticed anyone addressing the issue of the quality of the power line behind the electrical outlet. One might spend hundreds on a nifty power cable, but its merits may be moot if the AC feed in the wall is insufficient or degraded.

Having re-wired several photo studios and my own 99-year-old house, I can comfortably warn you folks that you MAY be wasting money on a limp piece of 6-foot cable, when you should be putting your dough into upgrading the line from the service panel to your listening area. I am not denying that some people can hear differences in cables: I'm simply suggesting there might be other ways to upgrade before you jump into wasting money on power cables.

For starters, upgrading the service panel itself may improve things. Beyond that, we are all at the mercy of our local power companies who control the size and quality of lines between the ultimate source - which might by miles away - and our buildings.

Numerous things can degrade the quality and integrity of power between the service panel and the listening room outlet: cable age, cable size, length of cable run, cable kinks, additional loads between the service panel and your listening room (anything with motors, such as wine coolers and dehumidifiers play havoc), proximity to aberrant and spurious radio frequency signals, even the quality of connectors within junction boxes and the grade of the outlet itself.

I've not even addressed the problem of hum-induced polarity amongst various components - but that's for another forum.

Only after you have looked into these issues and eliminated possible causes of power degradation should you begin to consider putting 10% of your equipment budget into a stupid power cable! Once you fix any problems mentioned, you might find a generic power cable works just fine, so long as its rating matches that of your conditioner and equipment.

To answer the OP's question, I thought the same thing but in two instances using power cords from the same company as the power conditioner actually sounded worse than a cord from a diff manufacturer. I think there are other variables involved

Paulsax - not only that science to measure does not exist but also that current science cannot be trusted. Amplifier, for instance, that has the best specifications most likely will sound the worst.

Lacee: I think perhaps that it would be more correct to say that it is beyond the realm of science available to the audio industry. Keep in mind that science costs money. If you have a couple million bucks and a climate controlled facility (few million more) you can measure several hundred channels of information down to the pico/femto level at many gigahertz. Problem is that this costs more than the small/medium guys can afford and the big players like Sony dont want to spend the money for such a limited use. Now that said these test machine vendors only spec the gauge of power cord (large, to handle 480 3-phase -most of them that is) and not the vendor or characteristics. Implies that either the cord does not matter or that the power systems are designed to make the cord not matter. The latter would explain much of the hear vs. not hear argument. Personally I'm open. I thought speaker cables were bunk until I tried one with a good recording. I thought usb cables were bunk until I got to try several on a really good system. Now I'm gonna keep my mouth shut because I dont know as much as I thought!

I just took my BMI Hammerhead MK5 power cord over to a friends house and without him knowing I swapped his Analysis Plus power oval with my BMI on his amp. I had his wife take him out of the room for a minute and told her I had a surprise for him. When he came back into the room he asked what was going on. I didn't say a thing and hit play on his cdp. He just sat there and listened to a song that he has heard a million times and just laughed and said what are you doing? He didn't notice a thing until the middle of the song and then it hit him. Back up vocals kicked in and he said ok what just happened here? Is this a different cd? Is this a high rez cd or something? Then his wife spoke up and said ok what did you do to the stereo system it sounds a lot better. I reached under the couch and pulled his old power cord out and held it up and said I just swapped a power cord out. My friend got up and played the song again and was amazed with the differences. He said I did not notice at first because I really was not paying attention for a couple of minutes and then I realized I had heard something in the song that I had not heard before or it was masked. I then had his wife take him out of the room again and when he came back in I hit play and he said it sounds the same. why is that? I said I didn't do anything but made you believe I was going to and you noticed zero change. This experience has made him a bigger believer in power cords and there ability to change the musical enjoyment. The biggest change came when we were able to swap out his cord on the cdp. However, I don't think his wife is going to let him buy another power cord for a while. In the end I was the bad guy.

But I'm not trying to prove it to you.

You are asking me to prove it to you.

There is a difference.

I am not seeking validation, or approval for that matter.

I am just stating what my ears are telling me.

I can never prove that my ears can hear things that yours may not.

I can only state that I hear, not believe ,that I hear improvemnts in power cords.

Stock power cords in my system and with my ears work.

There's no denying that fact.

You or others may prefer the sound of the stock cords to more expensive power cords.
That's no reflection on you or your taste.

You have a set of preferences, arrived at over time,for the sound of music in a hifi system.

That your preferences and mine should be the same, is as hard to get my head around as it is for you to think that one power cord can be different from another.

The stock power cord may emphaisi the bass,you may like that.
I may prefer a cord that emphaisies the treble detail.

No one is right no one is wrong, we can both agree.
We are talking about how to solve the debt crisis.

Audio is all about preferences and making choices that are dependant on having our preferances met.

If a stock power cord ticks all the right boxes for you, who am I to say that you are incorrect, or need to buy specialty cables?

I have no right to do so, nor is it my intent to persuade you to change your way of thinking and come over to "myside'.

There really shouldn't be any sides in this hobby .

No one should have to prove or disprove anything to anyone.

All the proof I need from you is that you enjoy the sound of your system using the gear that you chose to do the job .In other words, your system meets your expectations, and you are happy.

All the rest of us with aftermaket cords, fuses, etc, really want is to be able to express our experiences without being condemned or forced to prove them.

If we have found something that meets or exceeds our expectations and we are happy, and we haven't asked you to foot the bill, then why do you feel we need to provide some kind of proof for our happiness?

If I find something that has improved my system and want to share the experience with someonelse who may also try the item, where;'s the harm in that?

In my mind that's trying to further the hobby, it has hidden agenda, there's no monetary gain in doing so for me.

The only thing in it for me is the satifaction of someonelse discovering that the item did work for them too.

I fail to see what benefit it is to anyone who constantly denies that some things in audio can make a difference and make an improvemnt in sound and enjoyment.

Like I said 40 years I got into this hobby because of my love for music.
And to this day, it's still the reason I look for things to increase that enjoyment.

But then I am old and perhaps out of fashion.

I have absolutely no problem with you believing what you want Lacee. I do have a problem being vilified because I don't.
But the burden of proof has to be on the person making the claim. If not anything could be true just because a few people say so.
Look at it from this point of view. There are thousands of religions in the world. If you believe in one all the others have to be wrong. There may be millions of people that think each one is the only one and they have proof and you are an idiot because you don't believe. You can't prove any of them are wrong. I can't prove the Easter Bunny doesn't exist but I am very doubtful. There must be some audio tweek you don't believe. Try and prove it's not true. So, my point is; the burden of proof has to be on the individual making the claim. So much in the audio world is driven by perception. How many times have you heard silver wire is brighter sounding than copper?
Unless you do true blind testing your claim can't be proven to me. Blind testing means you have to be able to choose the better power cord over 70 percent of the time without knowing which is connected. Try at least 10 times. True blind testing really means the person changing the PC shouldn't know either. But that's too difficult, so you not knowing is enough for me as long as there no visual or auditory .

As a statistician friend of mine said, "In God we trust, everyone else must provide data".

I'd still want to see his credentials.

I have to disagree, Jeff, this thread can go on as long as there are two opposing viewpoints.

I personally don't expect you or any other person to experience what I experience, in my system and with whatever power cords I have at hand.

All I can do is relate my experiences to you and others.
Whether you believe them or not, that's not the issue.
I am not trying to impose my point of view on you.

But in the interest of equality and fairplay,you should afford me and the rest of us who do hear audible improvemnts the same courtesy.

In other words, I don't doubt that you can not hear the same things that I hear.
But you can't for certain deny that I can hear the things I claim to hear .

You should not be exempt from supplying the rest of us with the scientific proof that"I"can not hear what I claim to hear.
Is that not being fair?
Is this now putting the same burden of proof on the denier as it is on the believer?

You know I started in this hobby years ago, about 40.
I have also been a musician for close to 50 years.
I've got a pretty decent aural imprint of what music sounds like, from real up close on stage, and from a few feet away from my listening chair.

I don't claim to have any super ears(especially not in my advancing age)but the ears that I have were self taught to be able to distinguish certain things regarding music that perhaps lesser trained ears may not zero in on.

I don't claim to be better than you,or superior(as some folks may imply)I just can distinguish things that some folks may not, or have not been shown how to.

I was also mentored, by folks who knew more than i did in my early years.
They guided me and told me what to listen for and how to listen to music in critcial mode and to distinguish between that type of active listening to just passive, listening for entertainment sake.

I value the latter more than the former, but to really get the most enjoyment you have to start with critical listening.You have to have a foundation.

Which, if I am accused of anything related to beliefs, is believing that this is becoming a lost art.

So much is printed about how audio today is too fixated on the details etc, and that the essence of the music has been lost.That the gear from bygone eras is more akin to the real thing than what is hoisted upon us by the high end and all their shills(as some contemporaries of mine like to say) that old vintage gear should be all that anyone with a sane mind needs.

The rest of the stuff like expensive aftermarket power cords is just for show and to impress the "boys".

Well, that's not the reason I bought expensive power cords(yes the power cord to my DecWare amp costs twice as much as the amp), I bought the power cords(Shunyata, but try any of the others)because my ears heard the improvement.

What creeps me out, is that there are folks who say that I didn't hear those improvements in my system ,in my home and with my ears!

What science can back up those claims?

It's beyond the realm of any science I have ever read about.

More like the paranormal.

What's really scary is how many were imprisoned and tortured because they didn't believe the world was flat or that the earth revolved around the sun or didn't believe in the right god.

"Let me ask you this then: What sort of proof was necessary to convince you the world isn't flat??"

To prove it wasn't round I'd want science and data:), I've never believed that it was flat so I'd be speculating on an answer to that one.

People (and I am a people two so don't take this as persnickety please) have limited ability to make extremely minute sensory discriminations and accurately weigh them against memories of other extremely minute sensory discriminations. When you add in all of our human biases, the limited abilities are further hampered and possibly overwhelmed.

As a statistician friend of mine said, "In God we trust, everyone else must provide data".

I do tend to agree with all who think this thread has run it's course, so if you don't mind I'll take my toys and go home now.

Happy Listening

Is it SO hard to acknowledge that thousands of people CAN hear readily definable, consistently repeatable, unquestionably legitimate improvements in their stereo systems by using aftermarket powercords yet, because YOU and however many others CAN'T hear any differences the only explanation you are willing to accept is that it's simply NOT TRUE???
Wow...
Now THAT'S downright SCARY!!!!
Let me ask you this then: What sort of proof was necessary to convince you the world isn't flat?? Or are you still not convinced it's round yet???
I can't believe this thread has grown to over 100 posts and these guys are still saying it can't be true???
Oh my.....