Elizabeth, You said it beautifully...right up to and including your remarks about being smug about spending foolish amounts of money on stupid wire...being suckered into buying by those awful advertisers, etc, etc...you're great. No one wants to believe that power cords make a considerable difference in any reasonably resolving system and my guess is one of the main reasons is because they don't want to acknowledge another factor [of cost] in their home system pricing equations. It's so much easier AND CHEAPER to say "Of course a stupid piece of wire of adequate gauge is just as good sounding as any "designer brands"; "only fools pay for aftermarket power cables".
Elizabeth, I agree that 10% of total system costs is about right...any more than that should be funneled into equipment BUT that 10% into the cables will make a CONSIDERABLY SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENT OVER STOCK CABLES and are indispensable
There is no argument or discussion here... a good aftermarket power cable of even modest cost will make an impressive, positive improvement in almost every 'remotely decent' audio system. Period.
Good night Irene.
Happy Lissn'n. |
I can double blind all day long in my system [which of course I am completely familiar with] and EVERY SINGLE TIME get it right as to which is the stock power cable and which is the aftermarket. You can mix it up as often as you want, anyway you want to...you can even lie and SAY "I just swapped them" and when I listen again I can tell you that you really didn't. ANY ORDER, any combination, anytime I will get it right 10 out of 10 times...Do you need to see me do it 100 out of 100???? NO problem, I GUARANTEE I will get it right every time because I have done exactly that. In fact, I have had "Guest listeners", both experienced as well as novices who will also easily tell. The aftermarket power cable industry did not develop because enough dealers shamed thousands of dedicated audiophiles like myself into buying something I couldn't justify as a legitimate audible improvement.... I am way too confident of what my ears tell me for me to spend my limited money [which I work VERY hard for] just to impress someone that I can supposedly hear a difference or impress them with how thick my flavor-of-the-month aftermarket power cable is. I DO hear significant improvements...my guests to my room hear significant improvements and just because there are people out there who refuse to believe that it's POSSIBLE to hear improvements does not mean it isn't true. It IS true. If you don't want to believe it because you're convinced, without ever trying it out yourself, that it couldn't be true...then you have every right to your opinion but please stop preaching that you "KNOW" something couldn't be true without first trying it.
The expression "Ignorance is Bliss" is a common human state, and nothing to be ashamed of in most cases (I'll admit to the label in certain areas too...as in I can't really tell a $20 bottle of wine from a $200 bottle even though my brother in law can). But to PREACH about something being an absolute truth without ever fully investigating it yourself ("There couldn't possibly be an improvement in a bottle of wine which is discernible and justifiable for such lavish additional expense")turns a "privately uninformed" person into a public fool..... Not a good place to go. As for laws of physics, there is no scientist worth his degree who will argue that all the understanding of how we hear things is completely understood...this includes our entire hobby as well as the power cables that deliver the juice....
So, I'm not here to start another battle on this overly exhausted topic, nor do I wish to stoop to name calling (none intended) but if this is an area of interest to anyone looking to improve their system's sound for not a necessarily lot of money; try a reputable aftermarket P/C and listen for yourself how it adds to your listening enjoyment. OR : Don't... but don't preach if you haven't tried it...
Happy Lissn'n |
Rwwear "Controversy" is really not the word here. There is no real controversy. When a scientist can conduct a properly designed experiment such as a controlled blind listening test with only one variable (A stock power cable vs an aftermarket one) using the scientific method (Hypothesis-Materials-Procedure-Results-Conclusion) and the results consistently conclude that a positive/verified difference can be made... then there is no controversy. It is validated FACT.
NO CONTROVERSY
ENOUGH SAID
LET it GO??!
Trying to "Discount" the validity of such is not only 'sour grapes', it is UN-scientific.
"You live by the sword...."
BTW : I have also been in this hobby for over 35 years and for the first 25 I also REFUSED to believe power cables could make a difference.
Until I finally gave in enough to try it myself.
Bingo! A paradigm shift in perspective and I am now defending attacks on aftermarket power cables... Who'd have thought? (Not Me)
Have a nice day.
PS They say "It's not the last 6 feet of the incoming power journey, it's the first 6 feet your electronics get".
Happy Lissn'n |
Didn't mean to step on anyone's toes...it's just a friendly discussion. I think we've all aired our opinions. Let others choose as they may. |
It is not your job to prove anything but perhaps redeem your nearsightedness and holier-than-though attitude to thousands of intelligent audiophiles like myself who not only DON'T 'buy-in' to unsubstantiated hype but who simply trust their ears to know what's true and what's not. If YOU can't hear differences then that simply means YOU can't hear differences...it doesn't mean that I can't nor many[ if not most] people who actually take the time to listen, can't. By declaring us a small minority who have been brainwashed by preachers when the sales of aftermarket cables is a multi-million dollar industry that includes scores of manufacturers who offer take-home trial periods with full money-back guarantees if you're not completely satisfied, is not only an incorrect statement but also a direct affront to and attack on our characters as being inept/gullible and foolish. Then you tell us that this in turn qualifies us to live in "Bizzaro Land"... all because we don't agree with almighty YOU... Your arrogance about being "Right" is so laughable you should be very careful not to fall off that extra high soapbox you seem so assuredly standing on. . Declaring that we are essentially morons because we don't agree with what YOU seem to think as logical and impossible to argue with essentially reduces YOU to a glob of glue...fitting and waiting for the full gamut of [justified] derogatory adjectives which would appropriately "stick to you" if I weren't such a gentleman and on a public site where such name calling is not only inappropriate but would effectively reduce me to the status you so obviously have no regard for wallowing in.
As per the original question: it is not necessary to use the power cord of the power conditioner, there's a good chance you will find several which could make an excellent improvement in your system's sound.
Power cables make a real difference. Anyone who would like to improve the quality of their systems should be open-minded enough to try a moderately priced one or two from one of the many available companies you can find right here on Audiogon. Ask about their satisfaction guarantee and return policy...and buy with confidence. Best regards. |
"We could argue this point forever and I don't mind. But when we get angry it's not worth it. This forum is supposed to be for enlightenment and fun."
*I agree.
*No harm ever intended or implied.
*Anger is only induced by arrogance.
"If these differences are so great, anyone could hear them but they can't."
*I am amazed that someone who likely spends considerable time listening to a well constructed system can't hear obvious differences. This just proves what we have always suspected: "People hear differently"...but that's not new news.
"Since we've had about 30 years of improvements in cable design supposedly, go back and listen to a power cord from back then. It would be so inferior that you couldn't stand to listen with it in your system. A nearly deaf person would be shocked at the difference in quality".
*Ironically, the difference in stock power cords from 30 years ago and today are not very different but when you enter the aftermarket cables the designs tend to take on much more sophistication and care in quality and construction techniques...right on down to the male and female plugs/terminations. Hospital grade connectors use much better internal materials and pay more attention to the contact points inside the outlets, etc.
"I have a friend who claimed he could hear cables too. It was funny to me and others that he couldn't hear when one of the channels was out in his preamp. I also know people who agree they can hear improvements when they can't just so they won't be ostracized by the audiophile community. I've actually had Audiogoners email me and call me to say they agree with me but are afraid to post their beliefs. I bet there are people around you doing the same. Well I'm not afraid to say it. Don't get mad."
*I've discussed this point already. Anyone who spends significant money on aftermarket powercables yet can't hear a difference but feels afraid to admit it has much bigger problems than their audio system's sound.
"Armorall, clocks, various tweeks"
*There's a whole bunch of snake-oil schemes out there and many people get suckered in to trying them, depending on their relative cost/improvement ratios and a whole lot of it is absolutely crazy.... BUT Powercables are NOT one of them.They absolutely make significant positive improvements over stock cables.
Sounds like we can agree to disagree...the pc way of ending most differences of opinion, and I'm fine with that because this back and forth is getting old (and I don't type very quickly anyway so...). All I ask others following all this is to keep an open mind on it, and let YOUR own ears be the final decision-makers, no one else's should count more.
*Best regards, and happy Lissn'n |
Marakanetz, On MY system, changing just the power cable at random, I will get it right every time. Not only have I already done it, I've had visitors do it and I'd probably bet that, while knowing nothing about you, unless you have particularly poor hearing, that you could do it too. It's THAT obvious.
I repeat, this is NOT a controversy. |
I was also advised that Square D was the way to go with my service panel and am very pleased with it. I think any good OFC Audiophile romex is going to be pretty pricey (I looked). I was doing quite a bit of in-wall cabling so I decided I'd stick with the regular 12G Romex for my 20A circuits but I did do all my outlets with the very good Hubbel 5362's... again, very happy with the results. Good luck. |
Fascinating!
Just proves how much we still don't understand! |
Here's one last analogy on this topic which might bring things into better perspective: tires. We all know that putting 4 new tires of the correct size to match your car will adequately allow it to travel from A to B properly. Put bias ply non-radials on a 72 Chevy Impala made from one of the big manufacturers such as Goodyear, Michelin or Firestone and odds are you won't be able to tell which of these brands are on the car based on the car's performance...they are all more than adequate and based on the overall performance capabilities of the vehicle none of them would be considered a particular benefit or liability to the cars' designed abilities. Take a Formula 1 driver and fit his car with those same 3 different brands [of exact same properly-appropriate tires] and the driver will have absolute preferences based on the performance aspects each manufacturer brings to their tires and the ability of the car to wreak every last iota of capability from each one.
Audio systems can be compared similarly; you will not notice as much difference in powercords if you retrofit your 1972 Pioneer receiver with an IEC connector and a decent aftermarket powercord (although I'm convinced it would be an audible improvement) as you would replacing the stock cords of those Mark Levinson monoblocs with an appropriate aftermarket pair befitting the caliber and expense invested in the amps.
If you refuse to believe this and refuse to try it out for yourself, no one is twisting your arm to do so but the audacity so many people show trying to convince others that we couldn't possibly hear a difference is astounding.
Lamp cord of appropriate gauge will not sound anywhere near as good as a properly matched aftermarket powercord from any number of companies such as Shunyata, Synergistic Research, etc. etc. etc....
Don't believe it? Have a nice day enjoying your system with your stock cords.
But please stop preaching about what others can and can not hear. |
"As far as preaching what others can hear or not goes it's not my job to prove you can't hear the difference it's your job to prove you can."
Rwwear: You are repeating yourself and I already addressed this EARLIER IN THIS THREAD. I can hear the differences repeatedly as well as many others who took the time to try it (some were very skeptical at first).
This is repeatable... Marakanetz: We could wage 10:1 and you would lose. National TV? No one should be "astounded" about this...thousands of people CAN and DO do this every time they sit down to listen to their systems. The fact that so many can tell is not the mystery here...the fact that so many feel so compelled to insist on DISproving it is the real absurdity.
Listen to what you want to...be happy with stock cords if you can't tell the difference.
But please stop telling everyone else what we must believe.. |
Well, I'm glad this is pretty much over...obviously "the deniers" are defaulting to reason as they are completely running around in circles with the same hollow arguments [which have been convincingly refuted] as well as childish name calling about religious fanatics etc...
I'm more amazed at their lack of open-mindedness than their holier-than-thou combination of arrogance and ignorance, but I better be careful not to resort to name calling too...sorry about that. It just never ceases to amaze me how thousands of dedicated audiophiles who trust their ears, [regardless of what their brains do or don't want to "override"], and fork over their hard earned cash for what is obvious to them as a worthwhile improvement to their system by the purchase of an aftermarket powercord... yet be so easily "dismissed" and looked upon as fools for such absurd behavior...
To those who listen, assess, and make their own decision to buy I say:
Congratulations! You obviously DON'T listen to other people's opinions as far as your purchases are concerned and you obviously DO trust the only factor that really matters in this entire hobby: your own ears.
For the deniers, as I've said before:
enjoy your stock cords...
wallow in being completely convinced you're "right"
and please stop preaching to fellow audiophiles [who seem to have, by the compelling evidence these arguments have exposed, either somewhat more resolving systems than yours OR somewhat more resolving hearing than yours] (perhaps both?).
Just a thought.
Have a nice day. |
We've all seen or heard about the rather dim witted bully who loves to instigate trouble by picking on the apparently weaker or defenseless skinny kid, kid with braces, "geekier" kid, or whoever...
Finally someone comes along who challenges him by standing up for what he knows is right ( in front of the increasing crowd of onlookers who have always wanted someone to stop the bully's insistent obnoxious taunting and instigating when in fact he really didn't know what he was talking about) and puts the bully in his place resulting in the bully "Losing face".
Then, as the bully sees the huge crowd surrounding him he realizes everyone sees him for what he truly is (see previous description: obnoxious instigator) and in that crowd (for example, a post of over 80 comments and potentially thousands of "quiet" on-looking readers), the bully makes one more last ditch effort to regain some trace of dignity and exclaims "I was only kidding".
The crowd laughs their own little look of pity on the bully as he continues to make his empty, hollow excuses and they quietly disperse...finally relieved that someone stood up to him and did the right thing...
And don't forget...just as its always been here...the bully will insist on the "Last word"...with some kind of irrelevant, feeble "comeback" which, let's face it...is the real final joke of it all.
Moral of the story: trust your own ears. Agree to disagree if you must, but respect the opinions of others and their rights to them...
And try an aftermarket powercord in YOUR system! Remember: many cable manufacturers offer trial periods with refunds if you're not fully satisfied with the readily noticeable improvement!!!
Enjoy. |
Grant / Samuel: Thank you for the thorough dissertation and helpful clarifications. My ears were never in doubt but maybe now more will try and so hear the improvements for themselves. BTW, I've been meaning to explore your product line. Keep up the good work.
Happy Lissn'n |
Is it SO hard to acknowledge that thousands of people CAN hear readily definable, consistently repeatable, unquestionably legitimate improvements in their stereo systems by using aftermarket powercords yet, because YOU and however many others CAN'T hear any differences the only explanation you are willing to accept is that it's simply NOT TRUE???
Wow...
Now THAT'S downright SCARY!!!!
Let me ask you this then: What sort of proof was necessary to convince you the world isn't flat?? Or are you still not convinced it's round yet???
I can't believe this thread has grown to over 100 posts and these guys are still saying it can't be true???
Oh my..... |
