Lacee,
I think the problem many have with demagnetizing stuff with no magnetic properties is one of 'How?' or 'Why?' could it possibly have any effect?
If I could get over that hump, I'd certainly give it a try or at least a trial listen.
Does demagnetizing an LP have the same effect if played on a MC as MM cart? |
Demagging(how I call it) an lp, cd or dvd, and I would presume DVDA and SACD is a tweak that can be demonstarated quite easily and is repeatable(but not with a previously treated cd).
I've done this numerous times for my friends and they always prefer the demagged version.
I've used two identical cd's,played them both, then demagged one and played them both again.
The demagged cd was always preferred.
What you notice in before and after demagging a cd or any of the other software.
The information is less random or scattered, there is more definition to the music,it's less diffused if you will, more cohesive.
This makes it easier to differentaite the tiny little details that happen in the background, that when not demagged, just sound like background noise.
Now many people(the holdouts from a bygone era) still scoff that a power cord can reap any benefits.
They are all the same they claim,and are made for just one purpose and if not broken all they do is pass the electricity from point A to point B.
But,, in over 25 years of DIY power cords and owning and using 3 Shunyata Annaconda Helix power cords,I can also demonstrate the different sonics of the Shunyatas and any of my other power cords.
I am not stating that the Shunyatas are the best out there.I haven't that kind of experience nor exposure to any other power cords except Continuum, Blue Circle, and Cardas.And numerous hybrids of each in my DIY attempts.
Something that is very easy to do, is to just play around with the receptacles in DIY power cords.
If you can't hear the difference in quality as you change cheap home hardware type receptacles for Hubbels, or Furutechs and then move up to their pricier versions, I doubt that power cords of any kind or price will make a difference to you.
What I have just ordered today are the two Furutech receptacles-Ftech-71030,71031, and 2 mtr of Furutech FP3Ts762 power cord wire-Ftech 71126.
I should have it within a couple of days.
This will be used to power the Hydra 2, in place of a hybrid DIY power cord consisting of Continuum wire, and external 10 guage solid copper(Romex) twisted ground and Wattgate 20 amp and entry level copper furutech receptacle.
I've been waiting for a 20 amp Shunyata Annaconda to come up used but I am too slow on the draw and some folks won't deal outside of the USA.
One otherthing I would like to add,the How and Why doesn't matter to me, something is either an improvement, a step forward or it's not worth considering.
And the only way to know for sure is to try it yourself.
I was an early advocate of IsoClean fuses and now I can state that the HiFi supremes are also well worth considering. If trying to get all of the music that you have paid for really does matter to you, and you are a DIY or modder, to not consider using an upgraded power cord or fuse somehow just doesn't fit the scenario.
By now you should have come to the realisation, that just about everything has a sonic signature, and the game is to find the ones that best suit your needs. |
Yes demagging works with MC or MM cartridges, with tube or solid state phono stages, with belt drive or direct drive tables, with unipivot or fixed tonearms, and with everythingelse in the chain.
Of course all you need to do is demag the lp. |
All people hear an improvement the second time they listen to a piece of music. And just because someone tells you something sounds better doesn't mean they really believe it. I know a lot of people who agree so others won't think they can't hear.
One thing I don't recommend is demagnetizing a cartridge. This can eventually have an adverse effect on the magnet. |
"You can't lump in power cords with ic's and speaker cables. Electrical engineers (like me for what it is worth) will tell you that one is connected to a device designed to accurately amplify or transmit a signal and the other is connected to a filter network designed to gobble up hash on the incoming power line. It is an apples an oranges thing."
So are you saysing that frequency bandwidth, and the LRC characteristics do not impact the performance of powercords the same as speaker cables and interconnects? |
"So are you saysing that frequency bandwidth, and the LRC characteristics do not impact the performance of powercords the same as speaker cables and interconnects?"
No, (actually sort of yes due to reduced effect of L and parasitic C at 50 or 60 hz vs up to 20,000 hz, but lets say no for discussions sake).
What I would say is that minute differences in incoming ac, such as you might get from a new power cord are orders of magnitude lower than the constant and unavoidable ac line fluctuations that your stereo has to deal with.
Whenever someone in the house is using a hair dryer or the refrigerator motor is running or the lights are left on downstairs, or the music you are listening to changes in volume or etc. etc. ad infinitum, the incoming ac is measurably effected.
Luckily for us good designers install ac line filter networks in audio gear (and other good designers make supplemental stand alone filters for those of us are fussy). With well designed equipment the filter will do its job and protect you from being bothered by the big stuff let alone the minute stuff.
If you're oscilloscope is not giving you the resolution you paid for or if your stereo is not making your ears light up, the answer might be a relatively inexpensive line conditioner or having your existing components checked for blown caps & etc. If you can hear minute differences in ac noise due to different power cord capacitance (for example), something is significantly amiss. If you can hear minute differences in power cords but are not constantly bothered by the large scale ac line fluctuations, I think the most likely explanation is not electrical in nature.
Interconnects & speaker cables - here the designers job is to accurately transmit the most minute details of the incoming signal, and they are pretty good at it. Filtering is a 4 letter word in these applications
Happy Listening,
holdout from a bygone era :) |
So if I used lamp cord to power a pair of Levinson mono blocks I'll be ok?
If you can't hear any differences between power cords,yes I agree something is very wrong somewhere. |
Lamp cord would be fine if the gauge is heavy enough. |
Here's one last analogy on this topic which might bring things into better perspective: tires. We all know that putting 4 new tires of the correct size to match your car will adequately allow it to travel from A to B properly. Put bias ply non-radials on a 72 Chevy Impala made from one of the big manufacturers such as Goodyear, Michelin or Firestone and odds are you won't be able to tell which of these brands are on the car based on the car's performance...they are all more than adequate and based on the overall performance capabilities of the vehicle none of them would be considered a particular benefit or liability to the cars' designed abilities. Take a Formula 1 driver and fit his car with those same 3 different brands [of exact same properly-appropriate tires] and the driver will have absolute preferences based on the performance aspects each manufacturer brings to their tires and the ability of the car to wreak every last iota of capability from each one.
Audio systems can be compared similarly; you will not notice as much difference in powercords if you retrofit your 1972 Pioneer receiver with an IEC connector and a decent aftermarket powercord (although I'm convinced it would be an audible improvement) as you would replacing the stock cords of those Mark Levinson monoblocs with an appropriate aftermarket pair befitting the caliber and expense invested in the amps.
If you refuse to believe this and refuse to try it out for yourself, no one is twisting your arm to do so but the audacity so many people show trying to convince others that we couldn't possibly hear a difference is astounding.
Lamp cord of appropriate gauge will not sound anywhere near as good as a properly matched aftermarket powercord from any number of companies such as Shunyata, Synergistic Research, etc. etc. etc....
Don't believe it? Have a nice day enjoying your system with your stock cords.
But please stop preaching about what others can and can not hear. |
Lamp cord was considered 18 guage.
Why wouldn't that work on the Levinson's if power cords are all equal?
Because some gear demands better.
And sounds that much better with it. |
Lamp cord can be and often is larger than 18 gauge. Your expensive power cord probably has lamp cord inside or equivalent with a fancy wrapper.
As far as preaching what others can hear or not goes it's not my job to prove you can't hear the difference it's your job to prove you can. I have tried it as well as many others with even higher end systems than me and none of us are convinced. When a friend of mine had another friend who is a power cord builder install his PC in his system my friend told the PC manufacturer he could hear an improvement with the new cord. He later told me he really couldn't but didn't want to "tell the emperor he had no clothes" |
"As far as preaching what others can hear or not goes it's not my job to prove you can't hear the difference it's your job to prove you can."
Rwwear: You are repeating yourself and I already addressed this EARLIER IN THIS THREAD. I can hear the differences repeatedly as well as many others who took the time to try it (some were very skeptical at first).
This is repeatable... Marakanetz: We could wage 10:1 and you would lose. National TV? No one should be "astounded" about this...thousands of people CAN and DO do this every time they sit down to listen to their systems. The fact that so many can tell is not the mystery here...the fact that so many feel so compelled to insist on DISproving it is the real absurdity.
Listen to what you want to...be happy with stock cords if you can't tell the difference.
But please stop telling everyone else what we must believe.. |
You could start a new religion Lissnr. But I suppose someone has already beaten you to it. |
"So if I used lamp cord to power a pair of Levinson mono blocks I'll be ok?"
That is a really neat question when you think about it from the manufacturer/designers perspective.
"I'm going to market a state of the art device for a given market (audio,medical,research, etc.,etc.). I know that the incoming power characteristics will be somewhat different at every customers site. Some sites will have issues with nominal voltage, some with higher than normal high frequency hash, some will have better or worse power factors, some will experience voltage swings, some with high levels of emi, most if not all will have a combination of issues to a greater or lesser degree.
Since I can't control customers site conditions, and since my business relies on quality and in some instances upon performance verification, should I install a robust filter network to make sure that my system is highly immune to varying site conditions?" |
I just put together my Furutech power cord for my Hydra two power conditioner.
So far so good,nothing earth shatteringly different from my other DIY power cord,but quite the difference cost wise in parts.I went with the rhodium 20 amp IEC and 20 amp rhodium recptacle and two meters of their power cable.
It's about a $500.00 investment in parts, but a quarter the cost of another Annaconda.
The Furutech DIY power cord is plugged into a FIM receptacle that is wired directly to the panel with about 4 feet of 10 guage solid core Romex.
For now all I can report is that it is no worse than what I had, I'll give it a few days to settle in and perhaps there will be less demand on the power if this heat wave snaps.
I'm not making excuses, but when the voltage drops nothing sounds good. |
Looks like we're back to the age old dilemma that audio has been struggling with since the 50s.
Human perception vs scientific measurement. Everyone is familiar with the distortion measurements vs audibility arguments made for amplifiers. All amps don't sound the same to all people, even with identical distortion measurements. Probably because we still cannot measure everything the human ear can discern.
Engineers (of which I am one) are trained to focus on the "main effects" that have the highest probability of being dominant. Most EEs will not consider the impact of transient line noise at megahertz frequencies and millivolt levels on a power supply, and that even some of the best filters may not remove every trace, to the exclusion of a human listening to the amp connected to that line source. Or that the transient demand of a large power amp for current through its tranformer/power cord might create transient effects in the power system that effects the amp circuitry, and that these effects may be percieved by a listener. Or that these effects may be influenced and determined by the line cord's impedance just as it is with cables connected to the speakers.
True, the purpose of most power supply designs is to minimize the impact of these variables on the amps themselves, but that does not mean that every amp design is successful in doing it to the level that such remnants are inaudible by trained listeners.
However, as is widely known, determination of FACT based soley on human perception is fraught with false thinking as well. Just ask a police officer who has dealt with multiple witnesses who provide radically different perceptions of the same event. Add to this the complications of motive based perception, someone having spent $1000 on a power cord is not likely to freely admit it sounds no better than the $6 EIC cord than came with the amp.
This dilema continues and will not be resolved any time soon. I like to take heart in the musings of folks like Pass and Curl, who base designs on solid engineering principles and accepted sonic vs hardware relationships, but still are open minded with regards to the impact of these things on the human perception of listening. We are always discovering new relationships between the physical designs and hardware, and how these relate to human perception. |
"Probably because we still cannot measure everything the human ear can discern. "
I enjoyed your comments. It does seem like the above concept might be more accurately stated as "although we can measure far more than the human ear can discern, correlating human response to the measured data remains a challenge"
Which is sort of what you said in your last line, I just don't like to leave the measurement thing hanging. |
Here's a question I would like answered by the "deniers".
Why would anyone spend $1000.00 on a power cord if it didn't sound better than a $6.00 one?
I certainly wouldn't if there was no difference.
But I have spent $2000.00 several times for power cords because they did sound better.
Here's how that came about.
I was looking for a better power cord for my Cary 300sei once upon a time.
I went to the dealer who also sells Shunyata products.
I was impressed by the improvement these power cords made in my friends very expensive system(Nagra elecronics, Sonus Faber Strad speakers,)and yes you could hear a difference even with a few weeks between visits.
I said at that time, What's different? It sounds better, smoother, fuller, more impact and less grunge, yet it was great the last time, but now it's better."
He showed me the Shunyata Annacondas, and so I thought when it was time I would try them in my set up.
But did I need to buy the Annacondas?
The dealer let me listen to his demo Cary ,and a cd player with just headphones at the amp.
I then went up the line starting at the low end of the Shunyata snake pit.
If I could find a snake that was cheaper I would have bought it. But I didn't.
The top Annaconda did the trick,I was sold, and then later I ended up replacing most of my power cords with Annacondas.
Did I have to justify my expense after the fact?
That's absurd logic.
I heard the improvement and fortunately I was able to afford the cables, simple as that.
No remorese, no trying to convince myself that I made the right decision.
I made the purchse because I could hear the different levels of improvemnts in the power cords.
I'll let the deniers go to the shunyata site and read the white papers for any type of explanation why one snake sounds different than the others.
As stated, the how and why of things doesn't matter to me, only the final results.
I care less about the how and why I breath, and just take pleasure in the fact that I do.
I guess some of us don't need "proof" to validate our purchases, because the proof is in what we hear.
I think the folks who constantly seek validation or scientific proof perhaps don't have the same self confidence, or perhaps need someonelse to tell them what to purchase.
If that's the case, they ,not I are more prone to all manner of snake oil .
Be aware of the man in the white lab coat, be very aware. |
"Be aware of the man in the white lab coat, be very aware."
Agree. Often amps with the best specifications sound the worse. Deniers demand proof (scientific or blind test) but what they fail to understand is that it doesn't matter. If it is sounding better why to question it. Maybe it sounds better because of faith in cables (placebo effect) but final result is what counts. On the other hand cable deniers might hear no difference because of just the opposite - negative placebo effect but I seriously doubt that they even tried being so busy teaching others what they should or shouldn't hear. |
"If it is sounding better why to question it. Maybe it sounds better because of faith in cables (placebo effect) but final result is what counts. On the other hand cable deniers might hear no difference because of just the opposite - negative placebo effect"
Very valid points in my opinion. Since it is a hobby why not do whatever it is that makes your toe tap?
"I'll let the deniers go to the shunyata site and read the white papers for any type of explanation why one snake sounds different than the others."
For what it is worth I think "holdouts from a bygone era" was more catchy than "deniers":). Not my call though.
In any case, I went to Shunyata's website and didn't find anything like an explanation. They do have a lot of verbiage about use of proprietary materials though (which is 100% consistent with old newspaper adds for snake oil & such). |
Isn't this the way all religions start? First create a myth and attract a few followers. Then spread the myth until it becomes popular and raise money to continue the myth. The preachers make the big money. The more the myth spreads the more the preachers make. |
"The more the myth spreads the more the preachers make."
- but people are happy.
I didn't realize how much our senses depend on our thoughts until I learned that one cannot tickle himself just because he knows who is doing that.
Hearing better because of strong belief in cables is very similar. |
Well, I'm glad this is pretty much over...obviously "the deniers" are defaulting to reason as they are completely running around in circles with the same hollow arguments [which have been convincingly refuted] as well as childish name calling about religious fanatics etc...
I'm more amazed at their lack of open-mindedness than their holier-than-thou combination of arrogance and ignorance, but I better be careful not to resort to name calling too...sorry about that. It just never ceases to amaze me how thousands of dedicated audiophiles who trust their ears, [regardless of what their brains do or don't want to "override"], and fork over their hard earned cash for what is obvious to them as a worthwhile improvement to their system by the purchase of an aftermarket powercord... yet be so easily "dismissed" and looked upon as fools for such absurd behavior...
To those who listen, assess, and make their own decision to buy I say:
Congratulations! You obviously DON'T listen to other people's opinions as far as your purchases are concerned and you obviously DO trust the only factor that really matters in this entire hobby: your own ears.
For the deniers, as I've said before:
enjoy your stock cords...
wallow in being completely convinced you're "right"
and please stop preaching to fellow audiophiles [who seem to have, by the compelling evidence these arguments have exposed, either somewhat more resolving systems than yours OR somewhat more resolving hearing than yours] (perhaps both?).
Just a thought.
Have a nice day. |
We don't want to default to reason that would save us all a lot of money. I'm just amazed you have nerve to call anyone arrogant Lissnr. You seem to think your opinion is law and we can't have one if it doesn't coincide with yours. I wondered how long it would take for you to say my system must not be very resolving or I can't hear.
If audiophiles trusted their own ears we wouldn't have this forum. |
Isn't it a little silly to post messages against cables on CABLE FORUM?
I don't care much for Vinyl but I don't post messages against it on ANALOG FORUM. That would be arrogant and rude.
I also don't believe in CD tweaks but I don't post against it on DIGITAL FORUM. That would be arrogant and rude as well.
etc. |
Read the original post and think about your question Kijanki. |
Didn't you talk about religion and preachers just a moment ago? |
Read what the original poster asked. |
Well, lets look Rwwear - original poster asked if different power cable can be used and while he was offered by Elizabeth viable alternative of very good and inexpensive Pangea you had to jump in to express your disbelief, as you always do, even if it did not answer original question.
More, you jump on any possible occasion to make silly jokes instead of answering questions. For instance, when poster asked why longer power cord seems to work better for him you answered:
"I held an 8' and 5' power cord up to my ear and I thought they both sounded the same. I guess I'm not an audiophile."
Very mature! |
Just because you do not hear a difference doesn't mean others cannot. That was my point in an earlier post. If YOU do not hear a difference or actually an improvement then don't spend the money. It's that simple. On the other hand, if you want to be cool like us other audiophiles then don't worry about how it sounds as long as it looks good. (That was a tongue in cheek comment). I have made changes that made things worse. I'm not too proud to admit that. Its a learning experience.
Consider that if cables and connectors make no difference in sound then why would amps and turntables sound different? |
I guess audiophilia is a serious business and no one is allowed to joke about anything. Well excuse me if you don't like what I have to say don't my posts. |
We've all seen or heard about the rather dim witted bully who loves to instigate trouble by picking on the apparently weaker or defenseless skinny kid, kid with braces, "geekier" kid, or whoever...
Finally someone comes along who challenges him by standing up for what he knows is right ( in front of the increasing crowd of onlookers who have always wanted someone to stop the bully's insistent obnoxious taunting and instigating when in fact he really didn't know what he was talking about) and puts the bully in his place resulting in the bully "Losing face".
Then, as the bully sees the huge crowd surrounding him he realizes everyone sees him for what he truly is (see previous description: obnoxious instigator) and in that crowd (for example, a post of over 80 comments and potentially thousands of "quiet" on-looking readers), the bully makes one more last ditch effort to regain some trace of dignity and exclaims "I was only kidding".
The crowd laughs their own little look of pity on the bully as he continues to make his empty, hollow excuses and they quietly disperse...finally relieved that someone stood up to him and did the right thing...
And don't forget...just as its always been here...the bully will insist on the "Last word"...with some kind of irrelevant, feeble "comeback" which, let's face it...is the real final joke of it all.
Moral of the story: trust your own ears. Agree to disagree if you must, but respect the opinions of others and their rights to them...
And try an aftermarket powercord in YOUR system! Remember: many cable manufacturers offer trial periods with refunds if you're not fully satisfied with the readily noticeable improvement!!!
Enjoy. |
"as they are completely running around in circles with the same hollow arguments [which have been convincingly refuted] "
This is kind of neat I think.
Person 1 can read a thread and come to a strong and definitive conclusion.
Person 2 (me) can read the same thread and not see anything that would support the conclusion. There are the yes I can vs. no you can't comments but this seems (to me) to be a wash.
Apparently either person 2 is blinded by his biases or person 1 has biases which drive him to read things that aren't there.
As I'm not an outside and objective onlooker I can't speculate on which person is more correct, but it seems like we can perceive what we wish to in reading just like in hearing. |
I am not a bully and I have the right to voice my opinion without being bullied. The fact that I am standing up to the hoards of believers on this site should make a thinking person take note. It's easy for you with all of your supporters behind you to scoff at me but you have no standing outside the walls you are hiding behind here.
If I may reiterate for the folks who can't remember as far back as my earlier posts, I have tried high end power cords. I worked for a company that made them. I am in the audio business and have been for over 25 years. I rarely have to pay for any cables. The companies give them to you just to try them. I have two large drawers full of them.
You may actually think you can hear a difference with your so called high end cables but I don't believe you can and I have never met anyone else that could either. I think you believe you can hear differences which is fine because that's all that matters to you. But I don't want to see others waste money for audio products that don't really do anything. If someone asks an opinion about something I am qualified to answer I have the right to respond if I want just as you do, without getting nasty as you have.
I do not believe in magic and that is the only way a power cable of correct size can change the way a component sounds. You are asking, no demanding that I believe a power cord can someway do something to the electrical signal coming from the wall to improve it. How can it? What does it do? Speed it up, slow it down, increase it, decrease it, purify it some way. A power conditioner can filter out unwanted noise from the service but for a power cord to do that it would not be a power cord, it would be a conditioner and require much more than fancy wire inside. And I bet most of the high end cables out there are merely off the shelf wire that everyone else uses. |
Rwwear,
I except the fact that you don`t hear differences among power cords regardless of their cost or construction, fair enough. But your attempts to tell others what they`ve heard based on their varied and personal experiences is absurd.
You have`nt made a strong case at all to this outside observer. The counter arguements and contrasting opinions are far more compelling and better stated.
You don`t believe in power cord performance differences, that`s cool, we get it already. |
You folks on Agon are lucky.
The mods at Cannuck Audio Mat(CAM) where I am held in low esteme for being and UN denier-would havelocked this thread down or deleted my posts for posting my experiences with after market power cords, be they DIY or store bought.
I guess I am of the Shunyata faith, but I've given ypou th reason for that.
I just as well could have be a follower of Kubala Sosna, but they weren't around for the comparison.
The point is, it's not what brand of power cord you choose, it's the fact that you are choosing one that isn't stock thatnirks the deniers.
I coined a term wallpluggers-for folks who like to plug straight into the wall.Mostly with stock power cords.
However I've seen the term denier used and to me it's more appropo.
It covers more ground and includes other things beside plugging direct into the wall sans power conditioner or aftermaket PC.
Now I've asked it up there in the Great white north(where censorship and a lack of your first ammendament rights)and I'll ask it here, "what pleasure or purpose do the Deniers get from , well denying that, anything like fuses or power cords or power conditioning make an audible improvement?
Surely I must be smart enough to have earned enough money to buy theis stuff, am I not also snmart enough to spend it on what I want?
Whose ears are listening to this stuff anyways, your or mine?
Now another point I've made before in that other place-how can you know if this stuff makes a difference or not if you have never and will never use it?
How can you tell me it made no improvement in my system?
And you think I am a mystic? |
"And I bet most of the high end cables out there are merely off the shelf wire that everyone else uses. "
If you read what is on the Shunyata website, they agree with you.
"The majority of cable manufacturers buy their wire pre-made from major US or overseas suppliers. In many cases, it will be the least expensive wire available given that it is hidden from view." |
To answer the OP's question, no, it is not "absolutely" necessary to use any company's power cord with their power conditioner. However, good companies design their power-products with a technical goal in mind, intending them to be used as a system. I would suggest weighting your choice for a power cord toward the manufacturer of the power-distributor/conditioner while remaining open to other options.
It is surprising to still see so much argument over whether power cords make any difference in the first place, as well as whether they have any explainable technical or objective relevance. Not all people will hear a difference based on a host of variables and that's fine, but that is no reason to sling mud on others who do, or to state that _all power cords_ are a rip off and do nothing.
There is an overwhelming amount of anecdotal evidence from the world's foremost studios, mastering labs and electronics engineers --who evaluated and purchased after-market power cords for use in electronics design, film systems and for recording and mastering projects.
Dozens come to mind, including Sony, Bob Ludwig, Astoria, Skywalker and many others who carefully test _everything_ before buying. People convinced of conspiracy can always try to explain these away with more innuendo. They do exist however, and these professional sound engineers firmly believe in their value.
There is also easy to understand measurement data that shows dramatic differences between the average stock power cord and almost any well made (crimped and soldered 12 gauge or better) DIY or after-market power cord.
Yes, we measured this with an in-house designed peak-current analyzer but there is a common electricians measurement tool that provides almost identical measurement, absent some of the fine detail and scope. There will be an article on this fairly common device and its results published soon.
Whether these measurable differences can be directly linked to any one individual's experience in their own system with this or that make and model of power cord can be endlessly debated--which seems to be occurring here.
So, lets stick to a few facts:
A/V electronic power supplies pull current off the peak and trough of the AC sine-wave. Their rectifiers are switching on and off 120X per second. They are pulling current hard,--dynamically.
Compared to a simple motor or fan that pull current in an even flow, A/V power supplies are pulling impulse current in short, sharp bursts off the line. Any amp playing dynamic program material is a good example of this but all AV electronics are similar in the way current is received and processed.
For this reason, AV electronics are sensitive to in-line resistance to peak current. Meaning, the less impulse current that is put in front of the rectifiers when they open for each micro-second, the longer it takes to fill storage supply capacitors. For amps or passive power distributors that feed multiple components, we believe this is a very relevant measurement.
The vast majority of stock power cords have extremely high measurable resistance to peak-current. They are at best 14 gauge, but that's not their biggest liability regarding the efficiency of impulse-current and voltage delivery.
Common stock power cords are not using minimally crimped metal-metal connections, much less soldered ones. Their thin conductors simply rest against slits cut into the back of the three pins and then the mold itself holds the tiny connection points in place. That may be fine for a toaster-oven or your table lamp, but its objectively, measurably inferior when used with any good AV component power supply.
The _fact is_ that a 14 or 16 gauge stock power cord will drop close to, or more than 50% of available peak voltage and peak current that is measured at the wall outlet. No matter what the impulse current measurement is at your outlet, the majority of stock cords drop HALF of that. Now, whether one person or another can perceive a difference in sound or visual based on that objective difference can be debated, the measurement cannot.
Another fact is that you do not need a fancy (expensive) power cord to dramatically improve this measurement. Most crimped and soldered connection power cords of 12 gauge or better will improve peak current measurement significantly and yes, we believe that is related to sound and visual quality in a base-line manner.
There are many other considerations related to subjective performance of power cords in any single application, including component generated power supply noise and the radiated high-frequecy fields that are ever-present around electronics systems. Any decent quality, shielded or braided DIY design could address these issues, but there are also some good commercial designs from companies that know what they are doing.
Contrary to some peoples conclusions about commercial power-cord manufacturers, most are reputable, knowledgable people. There is the good and bad within all commercial categories of electronics manufacturers, speaker manufacturers and wire (maybe more because they are easier to make in theory and there are a of a lack of established "standards") but certainly there are also many that have legitimate designs and solid science behind them. To say that ALL commercial design power cords are snake oil or their makers are corrupt or ignorant is simply an unsupportable statement.
Anyone that claims all power cords are based on junk science or made by crooks are entitled to their opinion. However, they are also ignoring or discounting a massive amount of professional opinion, explainable science and anecdotal evidence to the contrary.
Regards,
Grant
Shunyata Research |
Excellant reply Grant.
I am glad you stepped out of the shadows.
Some folks rip the guts out of old vintage gear at great expense , and replace old worn parts with newer designer devices, yet they can't wrap their minds around power cords.
If something as small as a resistor or capacitor makes a sonic difference, and some folks prefer one brand over another and can hear the difference,(if they couldn't hear any difference how could they prefer one over the other?). When the very first thing their project sees is the power cord,how can they place so little importance to it?
In fact without the power cord, everything else is in vain.
And for me, it is in vain, if you end up plugging the project into the wall with a stock power cord. |
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Grant / Samuel: Thank you for the thorough dissertation and helpful clarifications. My ears were never in doubt but maybe now more will try and so hear the improvements for themselves. BTW, I've been meaning to explore your product line. Keep up the good work.
Happy Lissn'n |
Grant - Let me add that these narrow spikes have width (conduction angle) and therefore peak amplitude dependent on impedance of power transformer and ESR of capacitors (Schaffer's diagrams). Often with huge banks of capacitors in parallel (very low ESR) and big transformers peaks can be really high. It causes big voltage drops in power cords but also heats-up transformers since rms value of power (related to heat) is much higher than average value hence heating windings, while high frequency content heats-up the core. This high frequency content of the very high current spikes is also radiated by the cord. Linear power supply is in reality a switching power supply operating at 120Hz where "ON" time is proportional to load.
As for telling others what they should or shouldn't hear I'm guilty of it as well. I expressed opinion that Benchmark DAC1 is insensitive to transports and digital cables knowing that it has huge jitter suppression (2Hz jitter bandwidth) in order of >100dB at the frequencies of interest (kHz) on the top of very low amplitude of the sidebands (-60dB) created by the jitter. Many people confirmed it but also many found difference in their systems. I don't know why and cannot explain it, but it was wrong for me to say they imagined it. Perhaps something else changed - like electrical noise (FCC requires transmitters to cut power around 6PM), warming of the gear (often ferrofluid in the tweeters), ground loops or just simply I'm wrong and Benchmark is not that perfect. Now I only say that I cannot hear any difference IN MY SYSTEM. |
The hanging curve ball on a line impedance issue explanation is the 40 - 200 foot of romex on the other side of your receptacle.
If I'm losing 50% of peak power power in my 6 foot cord then I'm losing another 500% of peak power in my 60 feet of romex:).
But, if measurement data becomes available that will be a good thing!! |
I have a very good friend that had Shunyata power cords. |
Jeff,
Nope, no hanging curve ball. If the romex is properly terminated at the panel and the outlet (if the outlet is not the dime-store variety), very little impulse current is being "lost". That said, a dedicated 30 amp circuit (no branch lines) with 10 gauge wire will measure better when pulsed than a common branched circuit with 14 gauge wire.
That wasn't my point, however. The point was, that whatever the peak-current measurement is at the outlet is a relative constant. If you place a common 14 gauge or 16 gauge power cord between the outlet and measurement device, there is up to a 53% drop in available peak current versus a 12 gauge, crimped and soldered power cord with decent connectors.
Inexpensive ways to improve peak-current availability include installing a 20A or 30A dedicated line --or two (a separate one for amps). Use a better grade of outlet, such as a Hubbel 5362 ( $25) because they use FAR superior, heavy gauge contact area compared to the tiny metal contacts in the $3 hardware-special models. Have your electrician tighten your main and breakers once every five years as they tend to vibrate loose over time. And yes, consider and test alternatives to stock power cords. In fact, if the electrician hasn't tightened your breakers, have them do that and you should "hear" what I'm referring to without ever having to dirty your hands with an aftermarket power cord...
I'm not interested in on-line argument. I just wanted to add some information to be considered alongside all the "it's all a world wide conspiracy and hoax" comments.
Regards,
Grant
Shunyata Research
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I ran dedicated 10 gauge wiring and a used hospital grade Hubbel receptacle for my sound system. I also made my own 18" power cord out of 10 gauge stranded wire. |
I meant to say I used a not "a used" |
"I'm not interested in on-line argument."
I know what you mean. I just hate it when people find flaws with my explanations:).
Kidding. Peace.
When you publish the data that will be a good thing! |
I also meant to say the power cord was for my Krell FPB600c. Which I sold to get the 350mc's. |
Everyone is pretty much at the mercy of what goes into the panel, but somehow all the hundreds of miles between it and the "source" doesn't seem to be all that important.In the big picture,it's what is done after the panel that really matters and is the only place where you do have the ability to try to capture all it's potential.Or do more harm.You choose.
If you put a strangle hold on it or allow that power to be polluted or corrupted even more,you degrade what quality power you are getting from the paneland rob your system of it's true potential.
We are all wallpluggers,it's just that some of us have found that it's what you plug into the wall can make or break your system.
A 15 amp(if that) line with daisey chained multiple receptacles and powering numerous non audio products,isn't getting the most from the gear you've spent your audio dollars on.
But if you have never tried it any other way, how could you possibly know any of the stuff some of us are speaking about? |
