First, I have to agree with Dodgealum, this thread was pointless. Audiozen certainly got a rise out of a few people but I doubt anything was accomplished.
I've never heard PMC speakers but based on Vapor1's link to the PMC crossover, I'd definitely have to pass, especially at their asking price. I doubt there's more than $50 worth of parts on each board and they're obviously very low quality.
As for x-over design, I agree with a few others posts, the fewer parts the better. I'll take a simple 1st order series x-over with a minimum of parts any day and I absolutely hate the use of resistors. Usually, that glassy glare and sizzle you hear in the treble(mids too) is caused by those nasty resistors.
I also agree with many of Bigkidz points including the one about "price of a component means nothing" and I certainly didn't find it to be as "stupid" as this thread started by Audiozen. Frankly, I've heard countless speakers and components over the years that carried 5 and 6 figure price tags that sounded like crap and I've heard just as many audio toys priced at fractions less that put them to shame. So... often, the price is meaningless!
Finally, I've heard Salk speakers a few times under "show conditions" and have always enjoyed what I heard. I've never owned any of Jim's designs but have chatted with him and he seems like an intelligent designer. I'm not a huge fan of ribbons but he seems to get the best out of them. As for the cabinets, they really are beautiful and overall quality appears quite high.
Well, I've wasted enough time on this "stupid" thread so I'm outta here! |
Toddnkaya, I was shocked to see that price too! |
Hello, hello !
I have not heard Salk speakers yet but, in its price range, I can tell that the PMC Twenty 24 is a real killer. I've made extensive listening sessions, with all kinds of different equipment thrown in (CD players ranging from 700 to 4500, my old and beloved McIntosh MC2100 as well as B&K, Heed and Atoll amplifiers, Devialet integrated, McIntosh, Heed or Ayre preamps, balanced and unbalanced cables, etc), different kinds of music, and pretty much everything sounded incredibly good. HUGE bass for such a small speaker but, if I had to summarize there greatest quality, it would be "beautifully non-fatiguing". The kind of speakers which want you to - I know it's a cliché but, hey !, it's true... - re-listen to all your albums again and again. Very, VERY convincing !
So that's why I've now ordered Salk's Veracity ST's. After all, we all have "the right to know", right ? ;o) |
Are you kidding me ? I have had and sold many Speakers in my day
And Solen capacitors Suck,as well as the white ceramic resistors gritty not refined at all. Look at Magico,or YG Mundorf Capacitors,and resistors as well as inductors. You donot skimp if sonic purity is important to you.
The other parts are decent. Personally if you want top value for a Boutique company ,considered one of the best designers in the industry
Bamburger loudspeakers have designed for Svs,Sonus Faber,Thiel
And a bunch of others including Salk when they were starting out.
PMC make some good speakers but lacking at premium parts.
Parts like the worlds best Duelund resistors, and capacitors Mundorf makes good Xover products, clarity MR, Jupiter Ht all top shelf quality parts.I was just trying to point out besides the drivers ,the Xover is th Brain ,
Tuning,as well as quality drivers and cabinet will determine how pure and clean The music is ,as long as th cables, and electronics are of good quality. |
I haven't heard Salk either, but I have a pair of PMC FB1i's and a pair of Reference 3A Grand Veenas. In an odd turn of events I recently purchased the PMC's at close to full pop, which was more than 1000 dollars more than I bought the GV's for used.
I do like the FB1i's but they are limited compared to a full blown statement loudspeaker such as the GV's. This would be the case in any comparison where price gets involved. I think PMC need to either get their cost down and pass it along, or amplify what they deliver for the money. The FB1i for all it's merits, which are many isn't really constructed in an impressive way when compared to other loudspeakers at even lower price. I know they are still 'made in England'. Performance wise compared to the GV; FB1i lacks bass and the midrange just seems missing. Like I said these things are levels apart in construction and configuration. I use them now in a second system and am quite happy.
I look forward to hearing what can be done in the new 'fact' form factor that PMC is so excited about. Will be interesting... |
A friend has Salk Songtowers and they're well built and sound nice. I would never buy that particular speaker because I don't like floorstanders but they do sound very nice. Salk is a young company but they have a good following. Nothing wrong with that.
PMC is in an entirely different league. |
PMC is a great speaker at used prices,not MSRP....
IB2s are incredible stand mounts and mate best with Sound Anchors but with a retail of nearly $16,000 is insane.
I hade a pair of IB1 that were built in 2000 and they sounded great even after 10yrs and some AB1 that were 13yrs old and sounded great.
..IB2 with that BIG mid can reproduce some great vocals and $7750 is alot better than $16,00+$1000 for stands |
What a joke. All these comments about how cheap the PMC construction is and how expensive the Salk parts are, who gives a flying .... So a gold plated diamond crusted crossover would really be awesome!!! I don't care if the crossover is made if rusty tin cans and bottle caps. Does the $16k PMC IB2i sound like a $16k speaker? Damn straight. If you judge PMC based on sound quality (which in my book counts for 95%), are they still over priced then? Nope, might even make the case they are under priced. All the pmc speakers easily compete with all their similarly priced competition on SOUND QUALITY. And IMO, they beat the vast majority of that competition on sound quality. The REAL rip off is all the boutique speaker companies selling at outrageous prices WITHOUT delivering the sound quality, but justifying the price with fancy crossover parts and expensive cabinetry. I've got a gorgeous coffee table with solid gold claw feet, looks like a million bucks but it just doesn't sound as good as my PMCs for some reason...
It's true, with PMC you are getting way less value in crossover parts and cabinetry than Salk. And I am sure Salk owners take great pride in showing off their Salk crossover quality and gleaming wood finish. At my house I prefer to wow my guests with music. But that's just me... |
I've heard the best Salks, a very natural sound, I've read that PMC, which I've never heard, are first and foremost rock speakers, Do you agree Jaxwired? |
Schubert, the PMCs do sound amazing with rock music, but I listen to a lot of indie, alternative, acoustic, blues, and folk rock as well. They sound bloody amazing with everything I play. If you have a stellar recording, they sound shockingly lifelike. They are the most accurate mid range I've ever heard (talking about my ib2 here). The bass is full range and has more power than any speaker I've ever heard yet never sounds boomy or bloated. The only down side I can find is they sound best with loads of power. Everyone has different taste, but in my 30 years of enjoying this hobby buying the PMC ib2 has made me happier by far than any other single purchase. I'm a music lover first and an audiophile second. A lot of audiophiles say that, but they are often full of it. If you love music more than buying equipment (and there's no shame if you don't), then I strongly recommend trying PMC speakers. |
Laughing at the person who stated that $16,000 PMC's sound like $16,000 speakers. I have Salk Soundscape 8's which were $9000 and yet they sound like $16,000 speakers for half the price! LOL . Will PMC custom-make spepakers for you? No. Salk does-maybe one of the reasons mine sound so great is the Mundorf Silver in Oil capacitors which I had asked for. I havent noticed any genre of music that isnt terrific on the Salk's and I have both CD and vinyl. Is the Salk the greatest speaker ever? Of course not, but it's crazy-good for what you pay for. |
Laughing at you mrmitch for being so self deluded that you think the other 1000 speakers that claim to sound like speakers "COSTING TWICE THE PRICE" are all wrong, but YOUR speakers REALLY, REALLY DO!!! I swear, they really do! God, how foolish can you be? |
And BTW, mrmitch if you knew anything about engineering you would know that having a "custom made" speaker is nothing to brag about. It makes you 10 times more likely to pay a lot of money for a speaker that looks good but sounds like cr@p. Great design and great engineering is process of refinement and evolution. I'd much rather have a speaker that the designer poured over for years slowly improving and refining (like PMCs) than a one off "custom designed " speaker. What makes a speaker sound good is NOT simply quality parts, (what a ridiculous concept)' but the designer knowing the perfect use of just the right parts and that comes from years of investment in a design not a "custom" design. LMFAO! |
I listen to jazz most of the time, although my tastes run the gamut, through two extremely refined vinyl rigs with excellent electronics. My PMC IB2i sound terrific to me on everything. Consummate versatility is one of their best features.
By no means does my delight in my PMC model imply that Salk doesn't make terrific speakers, too. This thread sets up a false opposition between two brands, both of which may be excellent at the same time. Audio is not a zero-sum competition. And really, $16K to one buyer may mean less than $9K to another. |
Totally agree with you wrm57. I just object to the nonsensical attitude expressed by a few on this thread that basically are saying "yeah, sure, PMCs sound great, but just look at those cheap parts in the crossover." A speakers price should be mostly a factor of it's sound quality. If we attach a "rip off" label to every speaker whose price is not justified by the cost of the raw materials we'd have a really long list. If a speaker costs less to make but sounds competitive in its price bracket than I say bravo to that brilliant piece of engineering. It also calls into question the validity that those exotic and costly parts are more than just marketing gimmicks. Apparently they are not necessary. But they do provide something to brag about. "Forget the sound, do you have any idea what type of inductor is inside that cabinet!!!!" |
Again
PMC IB2 are a great buy at used prices but are a bit overpriced new..
They have pinpoint accuracy and never fatigue or compress which makes them a excellent speaker in my books.......at used price!!!. |
If you want to start a rock recording studio buy PMC, if you want to listen to acoustic music buy Salk . |
Jaxwired, maybe you had better do your homework and look into Dennis Murphy's credentials as far as knowing how to implement quality parts into something great. |
Also Jax, read the last line again of my previous post. |
FWIW, I just came across this recent review of PMC IB2i by Aron Garrecht on Ultra Audio. Some conclusions: "What the IB2i made clear is that, as always, sound is paramount, and when it came to sound, PMCs IB2i is a beguilingly good-sounding speaker that I found difficult to stop listening to.... The integration of the drivers outputs was so good that they reminded me of the point-source coaxial drivers used in such speakers as KEFs Blade. The quality of bass on tap from PMCs ATL technology and robust carbon-fiber piston driver working as one is also equal to or better than that of most floorstanding bass-reflex designs Ive heard in this price range. But the real jewel of the IB2i is its exquisite dome midrange driver -- it provided the most neutral, natural, lifelike midrange Ive heard in a speaker south of $40,000." He, too, questions their price but finds it justified by the sound quality. Having lived with these speakers for a couple of years, I find his analysis right on. YMMV. |
Mrmitch, I can only assume that you read my rebuttal and found yourself unable to refute any of my points since you posted a response but failed to do so. Don't beat yourself up too much about it. We were all young and foolish once. If you continue in the hobby you should slowly gain some wisdom. |
Jax, thanks for letting me know my refutation of your pointless screed caused you to post that last bit of idiocy, lmao!!! |
I'm in the market to listen to some PMC speakers, as they've been by & far the most recommended speaker from people on various forums. This thread seems to echo a lot of my price/looks thoughts; they seem like they're extremely expensive speakers, that aren't really that sexy. But at that end of the day, if they're able to reproduce the music faithfully, then it will be worth the money. I haven't heard a single speaker or setup yet that can do Electronic music properly, so hopefully PMC can change that all. |
as pointed out above, and a point with which I agree, the 'pudding' in speaker design and manufacturing lies in the crossover - any decent cabinet maker can copy a speaker enclosure design and produce a nice looking cabinet, line it with damping material and cut out holes for the drivers; anybody can get online and sort through a variety of very high quality drivers that have worked together in existing speaker designs and screw them into the box; but without a properly designed crossover, built with quality parts, all you have at that point is a nice looking box with really good drivers in it. Now what? I have recent firsthand experience which supports this opinion: based on a plethora of raving reviews, I bought a pair of highly acclaimed monitors in which the factory drivers and crossover were installed; the speakers were broken in. This well known U.S. speaker maker sold them to me directly, (he does not sell through dealers) and he assured me they'd be a great match with my pre-amp and amplifiers. I won't mention the name, but this producer sells speakers that many on this site are in love with. I was sold and I was excited! Given that the speakers were used and well broken in, my expectation was I'd be hearing a finished product immediately. Less than two evenings into the experiment, my wife and I looked at each other and said we either need to turn them down permanently and listen only at low volume, or get rid of them. They were fine at low volumes (though missing the great bass everyone raved about), but as soon as some juice was applied, the high end turned harsh and the musicality of the speaker just disappeared. Enter Mike Farnsworth previously of Talon Audio. I described my dilemma to Mike and after I told him what I had, he offered to install new crossovers in the monitors. He said the box is fine, the drivers were fine, but based on what he read about the circuit, he said a circuit change would result in a truly great speaker. He spoke in terms of 'linearity'. Increasing the power to the speaker should not change the nature of the sound; tone and character should remain constant, with everything sounding louder, but not different. By no means do I have any technical expertise, I just know what I hear. And I certainly have not heard even a fraction of the components that are out there. Once free to design the speakers he wanted to, Mike (as I understand it) is responsible for designing several truly great speakers: Firebird, Khorus X mk II, Raven C, Thunderhawk. All with the CMRC circuit. Once the CMRC circuit was installed in my monitors, with the exception of the bass response, they rivaled the clarity, musicality, effortlessness and soundstaging of my Khorus X mk II's. I don't know anything about the Salk or the PMC circuits, but my opinion is the circuit matters, and not in a small way. FWIW, my pre-amp is a First Sound and my amps are Jungson JA-50's. |
Ditto what Mark said. People should focus much less on the cost of the raw drivers, or the fancy auto paint job on the cabinets, or whatever else they complain about - unless that's as important as resulting sound (and to many it is). But I believe music lovers should care more about the design and implementation of the crossover circuit(s).
There is a song about this point - where there was an old violin that nobody wanted at auction... until the value soared... after they heard it played - with the touch of an master's hand.
Likewise, God cares not so much about how much you have or what you don't have, but much more so about what you DO with that which you do have. |
In response to Norton’s post of 04/03/2013, better late than never:
" Whether he’s a shill or not, I don’t know, but I have never heard any Salk speakers so can’t comment on them, PMC is another matter."
I’m not sure exactly what you mean by a "shill" but I consider this statement to be an insult. He has been in business for many years and has a very happy client base.
You post a negative opinion about Jim and his speakers without ever meeting him or hearing his speakers?
That’s nothing short of ludicrous and I think an apology is on order.
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I currently own PMCs, and went back several times during recent CAF to hear the Salk speakers. The Song3s, two versions, were very good. Very competitive with the PMCs at a very competitive price. There might be other models in the Salk line-up that would have convinced me to take a leap. The Song3's were close, but didn't quite do it. |
