gulpson
Thank You for posting the link. Happy listening!
Thank You for posting the link. Happy listening!
Please tutor me on some integrated amp basics.
I’ve recently purchased Magico A3 speakers and a VPI Classic 2 SE turntable with an Ortofon Black 2M moving magnet cartridge. I have a Marantz SA 8005 CD/SACD player to play the few (maybe a hundred or so) CD’s in my possession.
I’ve mostly vinyl albums and no streaming sources. I’m next going to upgrade my old amp/preamp purchased back in the late 70’s with a new, probably integrated, one and am starting to do some research.
Here’s where I need some tutoring. A lot has changed since the seventies with the advent of digital technology. As well as I need to learn more about amplification components in the high end of audio technology. I keep running across terms I don’t understand. I’ll give you a list and if someone would be kind enough to explain these basics I’d be obliged.
For instance I was reading about the Hegel H360 integrated amp that Magico’s Alon Wolf recommended for their A3’s. The review mentioned they were a Class A/B amp, another person commented Class A’s were better, and a third person said he didn’t care for Class D amps. What do these classes signify?
A second question is about DACs. I generally understand their purpose of the DAC, converting a digital to an analog signal. However my only digital device, the Marantz SA 8005 already has a DAC, ostensibly of good quality. The turntable ’s Ortofon cartridge would not need to play through a DAC, I presume. Would I bypass the CD’s players DAC if I purchase the higher quality Hegel H360 integrated amp?. Or could I find an equivalent integrated amp without an integral DAC?
On the other side of the equation I understand the turntable’s cartridge cannot play through the Hegel without first going through a phono stage. My old Phase Linear 4000 preamp you just plugged the turntables RCA cables into the back of the preamp and you were done. What’s that about? Do they make equivalent integrated amps to the Hegel H360 with integrated phono stages already in place, so I can just plug my turntable in as I’ve been able to do before. The amps don’t seem to be well integrated at all if you have to add a pricey phono stage to make them work, and end up having an extra DAC. That’s just me whining.
Third question is what are monoblocks, how are they used, and what are their advantages to a system? They were used at one of my speaker auditions.
I figured out the answer to what amplifier damping was myself, so I’m sparing you that one, but what does the term impedance mean? I keep coming across that.
Thank goodness I don’t have to figure out the cabling nightmare yet. Thanks for any help.
Mike
I’ve mostly vinyl albums and no streaming sources. I’m next going to upgrade my old amp/preamp purchased back in the late 70’s with a new, probably integrated, one and am starting to do some research.
Here’s where I need some tutoring. A lot has changed since the seventies with the advent of digital technology. As well as I need to learn more about amplification components in the high end of audio technology. I keep running across terms I don’t understand. I’ll give you a list and if someone would be kind enough to explain these basics I’d be obliged.
For instance I was reading about the Hegel H360 integrated amp that Magico’s Alon Wolf recommended for their A3’s. The review mentioned they were a Class A/B amp, another person commented Class A’s were better, and a third person said he didn’t care for Class D amps. What do these classes signify?
A second question is about DACs. I generally understand their purpose of the DAC, converting a digital to an analog signal. However my only digital device, the Marantz SA 8005 already has a DAC, ostensibly of good quality. The turntable ’s Ortofon cartridge would not need to play through a DAC, I presume. Would I bypass the CD’s players DAC if I purchase the higher quality Hegel H360 integrated amp?. Or could I find an equivalent integrated amp without an integral DAC?
On the other side of the equation I understand the turntable’s cartridge cannot play through the Hegel without first going through a phono stage. My old Phase Linear 4000 preamp you just plugged the turntables RCA cables into the back of the preamp and you were done. What’s that about? Do they make equivalent integrated amps to the Hegel H360 with integrated phono stages already in place, so I can just plug my turntable in as I’ve been able to do before. The amps don’t seem to be well integrated at all if you have to add a pricey phono stage to make them work, and end up having an extra DAC. That’s just me whining.
Third question is what are monoblocks, how are they used, and what are their advantages to a system? They were used at one of my speaker auditions.
I figured out the answer to what amplifier damping was myself, so I’m sparing you that one, but what does the term impedance mean? I keep coming across that.
Thank goodness I don’t have to figure out the cabling nightmare yet. Thanks for any help.
Mike
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Audioquest Rocket 88As Arte Johnson said, "Very Interesting... But Stupid" IMO, AudioQuest plays way too much BuzzWordBingo. No doubt they will have a ’sound’ and could be very similar to Kimber 8PR which are 1/3 the money at NeedleDoctor. No affiliation. https://tinyurl.com/y7g4rkls |
Mike Cable company charge loan fee, but if you purchase more than loan fee then they do not charge it. So after you select around 3 cables, you can loan them from Cable company You can call them to get more detailed information. Actually I can sell you two Analysis Plus power cables at 200$ each which I paid 400$ each 6 years ago. It will work very well in your system with neutral, balanced sound and weighty bass. If you are interested PM me. Thomas |
Audio Advisor makes up their own Audioquest Rocket 88 cables, one of those Magico recommended, by putting their own terminations on lengths of Rocket 88 cable off a spool. They then sell them at 51% off list. Does that sound legit to anybody, or no? When I called they said had their own in house "terminator" who used crimped connectors doing this. Ieales, thanks for the thoughts on the spade connectors. I would think they would be easier to keep clean too. I’m not sure how you’d be able keep the female side of a banana connector . I read you do have to clean the surfaces of the connectors periodically. I read the Magico A’3 manual last night and they said to only hand tighten spade connectors, rather than the easy nut driver solution for keeping them secured. Nothings easy it seems. Thomas, I have been looking up used cables on the Cable Co site. Did they charge you any fee for loaners? I read they charge 5% of total cable cost for use of their "Cable Library" loaners. I’ll add Analysis Plus to my list. You can’t go wrong with Elvis. My wife actually heard the young Elvis live in Seattle when she was just a kid. She said you could hardly hear him for the all the girls screaming. Mike |
ieales, I liked the movie, thought the song was cute, but was unaware of other details. It might have been because of the chills at that time as I do remember eyes. Children were not close to the list of desires, though.I will listen more carefully next time. Now I really wonder how many copies they sold. |
What is your excuse?Bryan was a friend, my missus worked with Michael Kamen on some films, we liked the movie, "Have you ever Really Loved A Woman?" is a great song, the London Met Orchestra is always good, Bob Clearmountain is a great mixer, I admired the work of many of the musicians, etc. I still get chills when Bryan sings "And when you can see your unborn children in her eyes" |
Mike I had been happily using Analysis Plus power cables for the last 6 years. I chose them after auditioning at my home 3 different brands loaned by Cable Company 6 years ago. https://www.thecableco.com/cables.html Maybe you can try their service after you get your speaker. Last week I ordered Synergistic Blue power cables based upon 3-2 offer and 30 day’s return policy. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis95gf1-synergistic-research-uef-blue-power-cable-october-special... I also ordered 150$ Blue fuse. In the end I am very happy with both the fuse and the cables. It turned out to give more focus and details with fast sound than already excellent Analysis Plus. Thus I placed order of 3 more Blue power cables with high current version . 650$ each but one free for 2 order. At this moment, I am enjoying Elvis Presley. "Are you lonesome tonight?" I had never found his voice so sweet through my audio system before. Thomas |
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ieales, My copy of Don Juan De Marco is the original one from whenever the movie came out. I have not heard it almost since then and was surprised to find out there is another person in the world who bought it, too. What is your excuse? I did play it last night and, in fact, enjoyed it. Mostly because of nostalgic value, memories etc. |
https://gizmodo.com/363154/audiophile-deathmatch-monster-cables-vs-a-coat-hanger/amp Apparently you'll need 4. Just don't let them short. Colored plastic coated ones sound best, or not depending upon which cognitive bias you may be subject to. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases Further reaction on gearslutz https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/180870-monster-cable-vs-4-coat-hangers.h... |
Ieales @geoffkait Some Monster knockers couldn’t tell the difference between cables, tube or solid state amps or absolute polarity. Were you at AES in LA? ~<:-P Been to shows as exhibitor many times. In some of the best systems ever assembled my mankind. My impression is people generally have no idea what the heck they’re listening to. And even if they do, that ceases after about an hour of having their ears assaulted by the horrible sound. I’ve never seen so many dazed and confused people at one time. And they were the industry folks. Not to mention most rooms at shows sound pretty terrible anyway, especially Day One, while folks have some chance of hearing something. I don’t believe AES has any real audiophile cred, nor did they ever. Maybe it’s just me. 😳 I wasn’t at AES in LA but I was at the Coke Convention back in 1965. All in favor of static displays, say aye. Aye! |
glupson, is Don Juan DeMarco a reference? ====================================== WARNING NOTE: Any disc that has been reissued / remastered is as likely as not to be inferior to the original. Friends and I have sent our various versions around without comments and then compared notes. Some of remasters are terrible. ====================================== RE coat hangers - we used solid 10ga THHN vs Monster Pro at AES. Half the listeners could not tell. Some could tell better than 85% of the time. Coat hangers have a different dielectric than THHN, so probably sound different and they’re a bitch to strip ;-) RE Spades - Unless binding posts are cinched down with a nut driver, they will loosen. That being said, if gear swapping banana’s are quicker. There are locking bananas, but they have a smaller contact area. ALL connectors sound different. The truly commitable solder everything. RE Luxman speaker cable - shame on them. Parallel conductors increase inductance. Shame on them, they should be twisted. >:0 @geoffkait Some Monster knockers couldn’t tell the difference between cables, tube or solid state amps or absolute polarity. Were you at AES in LA? ~<:-P |
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People tend to prefer spades as "audiophile" for some reason. I am yet to meet a screw that does not get unscrewed over time so I would constantly be thinking it is loose back there and needs to be screwed tighter. Sticking it in and leaving seems easier. Well, all of this may come across as a bad joke, but I am actually talking about speaker wires. Also, no experience on my part, I read that some amplifiers do not take some spades. Spades are too big or amplifier connectors too crowded, something like that. Luxman does have a generous space back there and, if I remember correctly, they even brag in their promo material what size of spades it can take. I guess they would not be mentioning it if it were not more than others. |
You might want to get this power cord, it will be a significant upgrade to Luxman stock. If it is not enough you can put it on your cd player, if it is not enough for your player I'll buy it from you for $99. I didn't try this model, I have their least expensive and top of the line models, that I currently use. The company is no more. Solid engineering, neutral enough sound, works well on both analog and digital If this length is enough for you, of course. https://www.usedcable.com/custom-power-cord-company-model-11-15-amp-iec-4ft-1-2m-power-cables.html |
Glupson, .Thanks for the Luxman cable link. I’ll be sticking with zip cord at that price point. Maybe they’ll show up used at a reasonable cost. Inna, I do recall that someone (you) had mentioned the Luxman’s, Another general question for you all: I was advised by one manufacturer’s rep that spades made better connections than banana plugs. Another poster mentionded he really had to crank down on his spade lugs to make them work correctly without adding distortion. Any thoughts on one versus the other? Are they pretty much the same, or is there some difference you’re aware of. I’d have to make a choice if ordering new. Mike |
glupson, my audiophile story is here http://ielogical.com/Audio/. In truth, it goes back to my Dad's Bogen in the 50's My pals and I first discovered that cables don't sound the same by accident in the early 70's when listening to one another's amps at our various houses. Then we built interconnects from every kind of wire we could find. When I was a recording engineer, I consulted for Monster Pro, Yamaha, Ibanez. Monster get a bad rap, but Noel Lee had some of the best ears around and a fierce intellect. In the 80's, biggies like Hitachi were getting their toe wet and made the aforementioned cables with different metal, dielectric and geometry. Monster and others were also investigating same. Later I went on to design and build electronics for the recording and film industries. |
I would also like to read about those Luxman cables jafant mentioned. skyscraper, They are not giving them away. Luxman pricelist (April 2018) has them as... JPS-15000 15000 Series Speaker Cable, 3.0m Highly Pure 7N DUCC* Copper, Newly Developed Y-lug Connectors, User-adjustable Branch Length, Non-twisted Core Structure, Nonmagnetic Carbon Pigment. (1 Pair) Vivid Blue $3495 *DUCC (Dia Ultra Crystallized Copper) is a registered trademark of Mitsubishi Cable Ind., Ltd. I wonder if they would have different lengths. I guess they do not have bananas which I prefer (don't ask why, I am not sure myself). |
Jafant, I'll see if I can find the article you read on the Luxman cables. Do you have a link to it? You would think they'd be designed to be a good match with their own amps. I'll put them on my short list if they're not cost prohibitive. Thanks for the suggestion. Inna, I hope so. Did your Neptunes jump out at you like that? Mike |
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iaeles, "Back in the 80’s, we found that dielectric and geometry trumped metallurgy..."You might have mentioned earlier and I missed it but does above mean you are in some way associated with cable research/manufacturing/etc.? Whatever it is, it gives you at least thirty years of experience, it seems. |
Ieales, thanks for the definitions, I couldn't come up with the LCC on Google on my own. I'll try to do auditions when I'm not overly tired or aggravated. although those two conditions are usually present only when I'm sound asleep. You've certainly got this down to science and Ill heed your warnings to not get fooled by overly bright cables like the Nordosts might be. Thanks for the advice. Mike |
All this might not be necessary when comparing cables, or anything else for that matter. If the cables are fully burned in I usually need a minute at most to hear everything there is to hear. Very familiar and reasonably well-recorded material, of course. If you need a lot of time to compare - stop comparing and choose the least expensive cable. I have six recordings, four analog and two digital, that I use. One minute each with each cable. Simple enough. |
OFC - Oxygen Free Copper LCC - Linear Crystal Copper I’ve got to listen to each cables performance "in situ" at home with my own system and listening environment to judge its musicality. Is that close?Spot on. Additionally, if auditioning over several sessions, use the same material, in the same order at noted level for each selection. Ensure that the system is in the same state. Replug ALL connectors. Choose a CD that is generally representative, power the system and play it whilst out of the room. Don't audition when overly tired, aggravated, etc. The task should be approached as a pleasure not a chore. If doing multiple evals and something sounds out in left field, immediately set it aside and revisit. It's often a good idea in long sessions to take breaks, and reset the reference with a listen to the current standard. Whilst this might seem a bit onerous, unless you've done it extensively and are well adept at mental cataloging, it's too easy to get fooled. Be wary of 'seductive sirens' that become tiresome. The music should hook you, NOT the sound! |
Ieales, I’ll try and find some time today to read and study the Galen articles you provided links too. I’ve been busy on another non-audio project that’s taken up enough time to not be able to get that done. What do OFC and LCC stand for? I did remember Cu stands for copper. I wish I was an electrical engineer to understand what dielectric and optimized geometry means, but alas am only a mere mortal. I do get the drift of what you’re saying though. I’ve got to listen to each cables performance "in situ" at home with my own system and listening environment to judge its musicality. Is that close? On my other non-audio project, with help on another forum I did manage to track down the proper electrical overload protection "heater" element for a vintage magnetic starter I’d acquired to service a 19 amp, 230 volt motor on a 1959 industrial Delta 22-101 planer. That should certainly impress any right thinking electrical engineer. I was jubilant when I finally figured it out and sourced one on Ebay. Galen, here I come. Audio and electrical engineers, look out. Mike |
Before getting too carried away, a lot of metal science is carried out at very low temperatures and DC, neither of which apply in audio. As temperatures and frequency rise, performance tends to converge. Back in the 80’s, we found that dielectric and geometry trumped metallurgy in an audio interconnect application. Cu, OFC and LCC all sounded pretty much the same with the same dielectric and geometry. Plain Cu with better dielectric and optimized geometry bested better metal with sub-optimal dielectric or geometry. As Galeis points out, cables alter the phase relationship across the audio spectrum. Loudspeakers, and to a lesser extent electronics, do so as well. All interact to create a unique signature for that system alone. The goal is to achieve a reasonable balance for the best musicality. That can only be ascertained in situ. |
Inna, I’l have to measure the cable length more carefully once I get my built in shelves in for the turntable, CD player and amp done. I’m moving the shelves to the middle of the room to keep these cables to the shortest length possible. I was thinking a little extra cable would be good to be able to move the speaker around a little for optimizing room placement. I could probably do that with inexpensive cables first I suppose, then know exactly how much I’ll need when ordering the good stuff. I’m not prepared to lose any money on reselling cables, so I have to make a good decision the first time out. With new, I bet I could return them. I don’t know how The Cable Company handles returns with used. You make a good point. I’ll find out their policy. I’ll probably have to listen to a few brands if possible to have a reasonable base for comparison, since my only experience with high end cables is listening to one set of Audioquest cables once. I wasn’t paying much attention to the cable during the Magico A3’s demos although I did ask. I’ll have to check my notes from the demos. Jimmy, you’re welcome. I'm learning a lot here too. Mike |
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