We can help , but $ 1000 budget ?? Also Zen Triode 2-3 watt why ? |
At that budget level, you are probably looking at a DIY project. Tangband makes some decent fullrange drivers that might work out reasonably well. Open baffle would mean that the required wood working would be minimal. The problem with even a speaker as small as 8" is that high frequency dispersion becomes extremely narrow. The fullrange drivers get around this by employing a "whizzer" cone. A 15" driver would have an even narrower dispersion. Because you have subs, I think 8" would be the way to go. |
You can find Emerald Physics OB speakers for a song as they were discontinued. Not to worry, Ive had both the KCIIs and the 3.4s. The main issue is shipping costs can be hefty, depending on where they are. Awesome if you can find them within driving distance
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I'd say you would need speaker sensitivity approaching 100 db to work with 2-3 watts. You aren't likely to find that in most commercial offerings.
Oz
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I have the Caintuck Lii-15s and dual Rel T-zero subs. They get plenty loud in my 12x18x8 room with my 1.5 watt type 45 tube amp. They don’t have enough bass without the subs but will have more than the Betsys. I would expect the 8” Betsy’s to be fine with your subs. Be aware that with the 15”, you now must purchase your own drivers. These speakers benefit tremendously from Dirac room correction. I use the miniDSP SHD studio and a separate DAC for my subs (good DACs are <$100 these days). I also use the SHD to crossover the subs at 80hz. In your small square room, you will benefit from acoustical treatments on the side and back walls. Otherwise, the overall system may sound boomy due to room mode resonances. You can use REW to optimize the room for your subs and plug in the parametric constants into miniDSP’s PEQ equalizer. MiniDSP has a nice article on sub integration with REW. |
@larryi
that is great info on the different drivers, thank you!I am indeed considering diy and using the Lii Audio Fast-8 fullrange drivers - but will take a look at Tangband
@tweak1 great tip, thank you!
@ozzy62 Yes, very much aware that I need super sensitive speakers and that I have very limited options.
@ricwa Fantastic info, exactly what I was hoping for. Never understood what those miniDSP products were for, and have also never heard of REW. Thank you for being so detailed, I have some homework to do now.
Re: crossover. Given you are working with the Lii 15" driver, is it safe to assume that the crossover will need to be quite a bit higher when using an 8" Betsy or Lii Fast-8 (or Tangband..), or is that not necessarily the case?
@bache
Yeah, my money printing machine recently died, so $1k is all that's left besides 1000 cans of Ravioli and home schooling my kids. No idea why only 2-3 watt from the Zen Triode, maybe broken too?
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Dual subwoofers may allow you to crossover at a higher frequency but no, it’s not necessarily the case that a smaller driver necessitates a higher crossover frequency. 80hz is a good starting point. Finding the optimal crossover point is another use case for the REW software! See roomeqwizard dot com. |
@ricwa awesome, thank you. Just reading about all the different miniDSP products. If all I want to do is follow your advice, adding room correction (Dirac) and setting crossover for sub integration, could I do that with the DDRC-24, "a USB DAC+DSP Digital Room
Correction processor powered by Dirac Live"? What does your miniDSP SHD studio offer in addition that I should consider?
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It looks like the DDRC-24 has all the same functionality as the SHD minus the streamer. You might post the question on the miniDSP forum to be sure. BTW, if you go with a Tang-Band or other driver, you need a driver optimized for open-baffle usage. Not sure you want to open that can of worms but it starts with a higher than normal Qts parameter. There’s an OB forum on diyaudio that can educate you to that end. I know the TB W8-1808 8” full range is well regarded but it’s expensive relative to DIY prices.
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@nkphoto Just so you are not going into this blind, 2 watts will simply not be enough power for Tangbands. I recommend you look into a subwoofer at least. I recently found an M&K sub on Craigslist for $150.00; if you are patient, you can find some good deals.
If you go that route, then you might consider the PHY 6" driver. Its an honest 96dB (so if more efficient than the Tangbands, which have 'exaggerated' specs) and is 16 Ohms, both helpful if you are trying to go with such low power. It can go down to about 65-70Hz, so can be crossed over to a sub reasonably well. FWIW, to use 2 watt successfully, you really need about 105dB efficiency in most rooms (meaning: horns).
Good Luck!
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Does your Decware amp have the high/low impedance switches?
Per their website they added this feature in 2015.
DeKay |
@ricwa I will def make sure to investigate further before making any miniDSP purchase - but if correct, the DDRC-24 would be a very attractive price proposition to add room correction, cross-over and eq capabilities to my set-up. Great tip, thank you again.
@dekay hi there, yes it does have those switches - what does this tell you (& me!)?
@atmasphere Appreciate the concern and Noted, thank you, re: Tangbands. I do have subs, as mentioned.
Folks here seem to be understandably concerned about the meager 2 watts of my tube amp and think I need drivers with 100+ dB efficiency to be able to hear any music come out of them. I am assuming it's because Audiogoners for the most part live in real houses with normal sized rooms, aren't surrounded by neighbors on all sides and enjoy rock concert sound levels ... For what it's worth, just for fun until I have high efficiency speakers, I hooked up my Anthony Gallo Reference 3.1 to the Decware (with a Matrix Audio Mini-i Pro3 DAC/Streamer as pre-amp & with no added line-in gain btw) in my 12x12 room. The Gallos are only 88dB, and while I expected barely audible output, the reality is that at night I have to dial down one of those two watts coming from the Zen Triode, unless I want to risk pissing of my neighbors. Not suggesting by any stretch that this is a good pairing, but from everything I have read so far and what I am experiencing with the Gallo 3.1, those Betsy or Lii Audio 8" drivers with 94dB - 97dB efficiency + my REL sub(s) should be PLENTY sensitive for my NYC apartment situation, no?
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The early Decware amp I tried here (maybe 20 years ago) with a few speakers did not perform well with speakers rated for 10+ ohms (Coincident stand mount speakers), but was OK @ lower volumes with my then owned Reynaud Twins MkII (think they dropped down to 3.4. or so, ohms in some areas).
Unfortunately I never tried the Decware with any of my vintage wide range single drivers (though some of them are rated as being 16 ohm).
The Decware had an interesting (memorable) sound with the Reynaud's that had a similar quality to a Roger Modjeski EL84 based amp that I later tried (lighter in weight, but similar).
Anyway, should be a non issue as you have a later model Decware.
Steve Deckert once commented on the unusual deviation from how most tube amps perform in regard to the early model, but I forget the details (this was @ Audioasylum many years ago).
Cheap and fun (for new drivers in OB) would be the high QTS Betsy drivers in a half sheet of plywood (if they are still around $100/pair) plus your subs.
The problem for me is cutting holes for the drivers as I barely trust myself with a Dremel (let alone a router), though I'm still good/confident using a drill/scroll saw and finishing up with hand tools.
DeKay
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I've actually recently ordered the 2.3 watt Decware integrated amplifier with a few modifications and the waiting list is about 10 months. I have Spatial Audio X5 open baffle speakers that are 97 db 8 ohm speakers. The woofers are powered by internal N core amplifiers so any amp powering them only drives them from 90 hz on up which should take some pressure off the external amplifier. I already have two integrated amplifiers which are excellent and are around 30 watts/channel so the wait for me is not relevant. I want to hear how a very low powered integrated tube amp would sound with my speakers so next year I'll see how it mates with my speakers. Worst case if it isn't a good match I will send the Decware back. |
Not suggesting by any stretch that this is a good pairing, but from
everything I have read so far and what I am experiencing with the Gallo
3.1, those Betsy or Lii Audio 8" drivers with 94dB - 97dB efficiency +
my REL sub(s) should be PLENTY sensitive for my NYC apartment situation,
no? @nkphoto Hard to say! With any SET that runs zero feedback, if you want to hear what the amp is all about, you really can't run the amp past about 20-25% of full power. If you do, it will start to sound 'loud' and 'dynamic'. This is because it will generate more higher ordered harmonic distortion above that power level, and the ear uses those harmonics to sense sound pressure. IOW both the loudness and dynamics are the result of distortion. So you might think its 'loud' but may be no-where near loud enough to bother the neighbors. You can get sound pressure level apps for your 'phone, which can be handy for letting you know how loud the system is actually playing. At any rate the extra 10dB of the Lii drivers or the like will certainly be helpful! |
@mrotino Wow, those speakers, powered woofers. Next level (or next life) for me. Will be very interesting to hear what the little Decware will do for you. I hope you'll post your experience, would love to know how it fared compared to your 30 watts/channels.
@atmasphere this is really great info, exactly the kind of stuff I need to better understand. While I am getting more acquainted with some of the terminology, it's more in passing by while in all honesty I don't really understand the underlying fundamentals. Zero feedback? Higher ordered harmonic distortion? Anyways, I am adding your input to my ever increasing list of things I need to read up on. For now I am taking away that the more sensitive my speakers, the better for getting the most out of my amp. Thanks for your time!
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@bache because of the sound. It’s only two watts but what a spectacular two watts. It’s also really fun to shape the sound with tube rolling. This isn’t a 300b amp that you have to choose between quality tubes or a new car. I was able to update the rectifier for under $10, power tubes for $2 a piece. The input tube is a Russian 6N1p or 6922 so you can spend big bucks if you want but its not a requirement to sound good.
This is a bare bones integrated amp with two inputs. Has an input bios switch to adjust input tube depth and an impedance selector to further fine tune the sound based on your speaker.
This is a true audiophile amplifier that with the proper speaker selection can compete with any amp in the world... it might not win but it won’t be embarrassed. |
Zero feedback? Feedback is the act of taking the output voltage, attenuating it and applying it back to the input, out of phase with the incoming signal, so it can act as a correction voltage. SETs usually do not use it because they rely on the linearity of the output tube which is a triode and thus fairly linear. Higher ordered harmonic distortion? Anyways, I am adding
your input to my ever increasing list of things I need to read up on.
For now I am taking away that the more sensitive my speakers, the better
for getting the most out of my amp. All amps generate distortion, and the primary means is harmonics of fundamental tones. When an orchestra tunes up, its usually to A on the music scale; 440 cycles per second. The 2nd harmonic of A is thus 880Hz (Hertz is another way to express cycles per second). The higher ordered harmonics are the 5th harmonic and above. The ear uses them to sense sound pressure and so is keenly sensitive to them. For this reason when they are generated they can cause the stereo system to sound brighter and harsher (since the ear converts all distortions into a tonality and the higher orders get this assignment) and louder since they are cues to the ear of loudness. The more efficient the speakers, the better, especially if you have a lower powered amp! |
I put one of these Zen amps on my Cube Audio Nenuphars and it sounds unearthly good. Using a Vinnie Rossi L2iSE with Elrog 300B's for DAC and preamp duties. With these speakers the Zen sound amazingly natural and open - wide soundstage, wonderful clarity and tonality with great separation of instruments and voices. Bass is strong and deep. Within it's power parameters I prefer the Zen sound to that of the Rossi's own built-in Mosfet output stage (@100w/ch). All in all a surprising outcome - I'm sure the crossoverless Nenuphar FRD has a lot to do with the end result.
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