Dear All
some serious stages out-there I must say.
I have a Vendetta SCP2A (recapped and with quieter IC's) and just stopped testing stages after that.
I have heard the likes of Soulution, Constellation, FM, and Nagra (sadly not the Connoisseur) within systems, and as such it is all but impossible to isolate the component save to say that there must be a clear 'voicing' with the other components. I must say I loved the Constellation system and the FM Acoustics best.
I agree with the OP and genuinely believe that once you get to certain level of turntable it is in fact the phono stage that is the most important part of the vinyl replay chain due to the job it has. |
Another Whest owner here. Whest makes ONLY phono stages. I have a PS30RDT-Special Edition--absolutely dead quiet. I bought a B-stock from the factory for less than Ebe quoted a 30rdt. Upgraded from a Moon 5.3. No comparison--one thing I was after was tonal color/accuracy, which this has--the 5.3 is a good 'stage for the price, but tonal color discrimination on orchestral instruments lacking.The 30 series has been replaced by the 40 series. They make at least 6 models, the top of the line the $18k monoblocks. Gain adjustable from 44 to 72 db. I have a Soundsmith 'the Voice' which has 2.2 mV output--needs around 55db gain, many 'stages aren't that flexible. Just not many dealers in US. I agree with your statement of importance of phono stage--James told me I was overbuying in the SE, but I'll never have to upgrade again.
Good luck, and enjoy. |
Gerry,
Are you still happy with the Wavestream phono stage? I'm considering it as well as an ASR Basis. How is the background noise level (tube rush, etc.) of the Wavestream?
Thanks in advance,
AC |
John Curl is being John Curl, that's a positive, ringing out the best performance possible before he'll release it for production. It should good! You'll notice that his designs are SOTA but also remain that way for years without rev after rev. I'm really looking forward to getting one. |
Aesthetix io
Alaap MKII
Allnic h3000
ASR Exclusive
Atma-sphere mp-1
Audia Flight
Audio Reference 2
Dartzeel nhb-18ns
Essential 3160
Einstein Balanced
FM Acoustic
Klyne 7x 3.5
Lamm Lp2
Lyra 4.2p se
Manley Steelhead
Messenger
Nagra Vps
Tron Seven signature
TW Acustic
Wavestream Kinetics
Walker
Zanden 1200
|
Anyone have information about the new Parasound JC-3? For $2K it could be a nice unit. |
Vertigo,
I partially agree.
I say that for a reason, here's an example, it wouldn't make sense to use a $150k turntable on a $1k speaker. Most of us here will make purchases in which all the components are in the same class. But let's say we have the priviledge of owning the best equipment out there, totalling $2 million or so hypothetically speaking. Each link of the audio chain coming from the finest makers. What if we experimented and were to remove one part at a time and replace it with a less regarded piece possibly costing less? When would we percieve the greatest difference? I would say with the speakers, but then it's relative, change the turntable and how big of a difference will be percieved? |
I think it is fair to say that my opinion that no one item should be should be deemed less important than the other is uncommon and probably will fall into a minority group but i still maintain it. I can see how one component that is physically larger than another say for example a phonostage compared to a interconnect, the former having more parts and the cable being smaller, having less parts and by comparison therefore seems less significant but i think not. Yes, from a designer's perspective a phonostage will provide a greater challenge than a cable but nevertheless the cable, especially today, with what is at the disposal to the designer in terms of materials and advanced technology, the cable too, though a apparently simple part does impart a very important influence whether good, bad, medium in the web of parts in a playback system. (you could substitute what i just said for cables, "phonostages" or "speakers", this isnt a post about cables vs. phonostages etc, etc, but about all components interdependence and importance as a whole)
All analogies breakdown at some point but...consider these two components of a farrari race car. Its motor and its rubber tires. Which of these two components has more parts? which is more complicated and sophisticated to conceive of and execute? yet which is more important to reach 250km per hour? In terms of the goal (reaching a speed of 250km per hour) arent they both AS important and dont they both depend on each other? To answer my own questions, the motor has more parts and is more sophisticated to conceive of and design, the tires though seemingly simple need to be able to grip the highway and not disintegrate or blow at high speeds. So all the value of the _____(insert any "complicated" component here) Lets say "phonostage" is potentially wasted or possibly not fully realized because of how another component interfaces with it. I would venture to say that some will come on here and say, the cartridge, table, tonearm and phono is the most important, others will argue , no, the amp/speaker is more important than x or y and others, will say ,no, the room is THE most important thing but if you stop, clear your mind and take the time to think of my analogy i think you will see that even simple parts have essential and vital jobs to components that have difficult tasks and MIGHT be a choke, or "weak point" to allowing these more complicated components to perform to their potential. Again as i posted above in my previous post, getting an entire system, to pull together in perfect execution, unison and ideal performance is a cryptic task. You can have 5 digits right on a 6 digit combination lock but if the sixth digit is wrong it doesnt matter if the other five are right, the lock wont open. We as audiophiles dont know the combo so what do we do? we guesstimate and just keep spinning its dials, once in a while we get lucky and the lock pops open (we find a degree of synergy.)
Within the playback chain, ease of design, apparent simplicity/sparse parts of one component compared directly to another does not necessarily diminish influence, importance or relevance on the final sound. That is why i think all components are equally important. |
>>02-11-10: Vertigo
......and no component should be overlooked or should be deemed more important than the other<<
Not true.
The amplifier/speaker interface is more important than any component or combination thereof.
That pairing is (or should be) the foundation of a well designed audio system. |
If one is serious about the goal of having a hi fidelity, high performance, transparent system no component or part should be underestimated or given more or less importance in its contribution to the final experience you have at your listening chair.
From the cartridge to the woofer each component is interconnected to the other in a sophisticated cryptic web and chain.
In every system there must be thousands of parts and chemistry is one of many important factors.
How each of these thousands of parts, especially how one component with its thousands of parts, built by a different design circuit topoglogies/ designer , perhaps built on the otherside of the world, how it will interact with another designers design/ parts is extremely difficult to predict. An average system probably has components from more than 5 different companies and when they created their products it was within the context of their own set of contigencies, ie (room, speakers, amp, preamp, wire, cartridge, tonearm, personal tastes) and in isolation from the components you are presently using in your system.
Some people want to say the phonostage is the most important, others the speaker and so on, i say each and every single part is essential to the whole and no component should be overlooked or should be deemed more important than the other.
If you have a 10 link chain and one of the links was extremely expensive and made with state of the art metals and production processes how much will that matter when you begin using all the links to try and lift a very heavy weight when one of the links is make of a inferior metal and with inferior production? How well will the lift be executed? did it matter that the high quality component was in the chain if the weak leak was there as well? |
Hey Curio,
Thanks for quoting me in your response! I'm sitting here listening to some great jazz right now. The whest is wonderful...and the rest of my system....well it gets me through the cold winters here in Chicago. I'm a big fan of Sonus Faber! Since they're made in your back yard, have you spent any time listening to them? I've owned the Cremonas and now I have the elipsas. Would enjoy hearing from you.
Cheers,
Erik |
Has anyone heard the Walker Audio Reference Phono Second Edition or the ASR Basis Exclusive 2010 model? If so, how do they compare. Thanks |
My ranking -
(1) Phono
(2) Cart (3) Tonearm/wire (4) TT
Tough choice but ideally I would actually place the rest of the items at a distant second place behind the phono. Yes, I'm trying to convince myself to get a Audia Flight Phono now.... |
Don't agree phono stages are the most critical component
in the anolog song.
I would say IMHO this would be the order for me;
1.)turntable,tonearm wire,
2.)cartridge,phono stage,
3.)motor,tonearm,filters etc...
but really especially with the top four items, your only as good as your weekest link.
Happy new year. |
I highly recommend the Whest RDT.. (Ebe) I have the Whest Audio PS30 RDT too.. with TW Acoustic Raven One and Benz Micro LP. I'm an analog guy and I tried lotsa phono preamp in my life but I strongly suggest to listen this 30RDT before to purchase any other phono preamps. By the way .. Happy New Year and don't forget .."In Stylus Veritas!" My cent Curio |
Another vote for the TRON Seven! Top class sound, great build quality and built to order (can be made bespoke to suit your cart). |
would like to add the Tron Seven to this list! awesome phono pre-amp. |
Aceboympk
I was going through a similar search and finally pulled the trigger and bought a Pass XOno. Many say it's over analytical and cold I haven't found this to be true. When the impedance was set correctly for my cartridge the sound became full with timbre, great dynamics, well defined and powerful bass and good inner detail. When the impedance was set to high (incorrectly?) the the sound was very detailed and cooler; I think many may have set and/or kept the impedance to high and never experienced how good this phono can be. The XOno handles a symphony orchestra's timbre diversity with a refined ease. |
Pedrillo,
I have the Whest 30RDT, which I utilize with a VPI Scoutmaster Signature table and a Dynavector Te Kaitora Rua cartridge. I run these into an ARC Ref. 3 and a REf 110. My speakers are Sonus Faber Elipsas. I compared the Whest 30rdt against the ARC ph 7 and the new Esoteric phonostage. The Whest was a better match for my system, the ARC didn't have enough gain and sounded muffled and the Esoteric was very good, but not good enough to justify the high price. The Whest sounds wonderful, very open, dynamic and detailed. There's great synergy with my system. I've definitely turned into an analogue guy. I highly recommend the Whest RDT. It's $3,995 U.S. and can be had for less with a little negotiation. |
2nd hand Pass Xono - perfect choice |
Analog setup:
- Dynavector Te Kaitora (not Rua)
http://www.needledoctor.com/Dynavector-TE-Kaitora-Cartridge
- Avid Diva II
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/50183
- Origin Live Encounter Mk2 arm
Amp: Yamamoto A-08S
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/yamamoto2/45.html
Linstage Pre-amp: Canary CA-903
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/canary4/903.html
Currently I have a Canary CA-401 phono stage that I enjoy a lot, but I'm looking for a more quiet phono stage. In fact, dead quiet would be great.
Most knowledgeable Agon members suggest matching the phono stage based on components and preferences, so I listed my components hoping you guys can help.
My budget is between $1k-$2k. Because of my amp and line stage being tube based, I'm REALLY needing a dead quiet phono stage without sacrificing performance. I want a little more speed, focus and tightness, without diminishing the soundstage, range or textures of the Canary.
I'm sure there are trade offs, but I'd appreciate some suggestions. I read through all of the phono stages listed in everyone's post so I have some more information. But, synergy is really important when it comes to matching components directly. The Canary is great, but a little too noisy with the rest of my tube gear and I think balancing out my tube gear with a SS phono MAY be the way to go, instead of overemphasizing the "tube" sound with everything being tubes. Make sense?
Thanks,
Mark |
Dear Perrew: Remember that the Essential 3160 is a Phonolinepreamp: phono stages + line stage.
The total gain in the Phono stage is 60db in two stages but this Phono stage signal must pass through the line stage where there is the additional gain the amplifier needs.
You can't run the Essential as a stand alone Phono stage.
The RIAA network is a passive RC one on Lipshitz two poles configuration.
If you need more specific info please email me.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Raul,
thank you for answering. When you say I can have 80dB and you have 60dB from the phono stage with two stages, I suppose you have the RIAA sandwiched between the two, does that mean you have another stage for the pre or could you bypass this to just have two stages in total. Then max gain would be 60dB.
Also what type of network you use for the RIAA, a regular RC? |
Dear Perrew: Two independent stages configured as need it: 2MC, 2MM and MC/MM.
For LOMC cartridges: 60 db and 54db in the phono stage and overall you can have what you need: 75-80-90 db. The phono stages gain comes in two gain stages, either MC and MM.
The RIAA is a passive network.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Raul,
how many stages do you have in the essential and how much gain and what type of RIAA network do you employ? I didnt see that info on your system.
Tks
Par |
Raul,
Thanks for asking.
I am about to make a purchase of a phono stage therefore I am creating a list of what others have considered as the best.
Thank you to all for sharing your experiences. |
Dear Pedrillo: I don't know what precise information you are looking for in your thread and these are my thoughts on your last post.
The units you name it ( in that list ) are good units but totally different between each other as is its each one quality performance level: you have stand alone Phono stages, Phonolinepreamps, tube units, SS units, hybrid units, high gain active units, Low gain+SUT units, fully balanced designs, unbalanced designs even a non discrete design like the ASR that uses IC's(chips/opamps ), etc, etc.
With all these " variety " where each one unit has its own advantages and disadvantages and with other units that are very good but not name it in the thread I wonder: which kind of precise conclusions could you obtain other that put names in a list?
Maybe I'm wrong but, please if you can try to explain your thread thoughts about, maybe I'm missing something.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
So would it be safe to say these are in the top tier?
Aesthetix io
Alaap MKII
Allnic h3000
Audio Research Ph7
ASR Exclusive
Atma-sphere mp-1
Essential 3160
Einstein Balanced
Lyra 4.2p se
Manley Steelhead
Wavestream Kinetics
Zanden 1200 |
I'm been running the Wavestream Kinetics phono stage and preamp for over a year and IMHO it is excellent. I ran a latest (at the time) Aesthetix Callisto and Io Signature each with two power supplies, NOS tubes, before changing to the Wavestream. I listen to mainly jazz, classical and a lot of female vocals. The Wavestream and the Aesthetix had more than enough gain for my moving coil. After a week home demo with the Wavestream in my system I like it better. I thought my Aesthetix gear was great but it had a slightly euphoric presentation and was a little plumier in the upper bass than the Wavestream combo. The Wavestream seemed slightly more netural and more like live music I hear on the weekends. There's no question that Jim White's Aesthetix products are wonderfull and you may like these better than Wavestream's combo. You can't go wrong with either. I think that both are in top 5 phono stages. |
Tom Evans would probably be here as well like the Groove X or the SRX version. |
Aoliviero,
I have owned the Lamm, Steelhead, ASR, Einstein, Jadis, Thor, Joule, PH7,
Doshi Alaap, BAT (fully loaded)....and find the Wavestream to be the most
musically satisfying. |
JJ2482,
The Lamm with Westerm Electric NOS 417's is splendid offering resolution and a touch of warmth. Paired with the LL2 it soars and together they make a very listenable top tier combination. The lack of adjustment and limited gain in the MC section, perhaps keep it from being a free standing reference phono stage.
The Allnic's transformer coupling provide intense image density, which excells every other pre-amp I have owned. It's excellent resolution will not have have you looking elsewhere, and it's bass attack is also amoung the best I have heard. The sound stage while large is not enormous like the Aesthetix IO. Very low noise, ultra quiet and low distortion allow you to play music louder when you choose to.
Flexibility is tops, balanced or single ended, multiple loading adjustments, etc. also... allowing 4 turntables switchable from the front panel or remote control, comes with NOS tubes. It is a true reference phono stage. |
I tried EAR 324 and Asthetix Rhea with my ASR II Exclusive. Asthetix was terrible. However, without any previous listening test, my Asthetix dealer warned me that he think it would be a poor match to ASR according to input impedance on ASR and output impedance on Rhea. He even told me that I would waste my time trying but I was curious so I tried anyhow. He was right. If his theory was right, in my system, I can also rule out Audio Research, Pass, Lamm, Leben and most other tube phonos that I could find spec as well. EAR 324 was much better match (according to its output impedance and listening test) but when using MC cartridge (Ortofon Jubilee at that time), I much preferred using Ortofon T100 SUT into EAR MM input rather than directly into its MC input. Then I tried ASR Mini Basis with Ortofon SUT and I found that EAR/Ortofon was not any better than ASR Mini Basis/Ortofon in my system. ASR Mini Basis MC input is not bad either. However, it is very likely that ASR phono and amp may have special synergy and in different system, it might not be as close a call. Now I have ASR Basis Exclusive 2010 on order.
Basically it is not enough to just list the best phono as much will also depends on the rest of your system as well. |
Anyone heard the Wavestream Kinetics phono stage? |
One of my audiobuddies owned a ASR Basis Exclusive. He sold it for a Audia Flight phono.
The Audio Flight is superior in every music making aspect. I gotta hear the Audia Flight myself |
First Tier Class A
ASR Basis Exclusive 2010 or any prior version
No question about it. |
I have had quite a few phono stages over the years in my systems and in general tube based amps seem to provide the organic texture that dovetails with the vinyl experience. Having said that, more recent design SS stages that I have had really perpetuate the positive aspects of SS:- taught lean base, extended highs, lots of detail etc. etc.. The PS Audio GCPH and Pathos Inthegroove Mk 2and ZYX phono stages are extremely acceptable and competitive - they are also relatively affordable and a great bang for the buck and you could live with any of these IMHO.
On the tube front I am going to be contrary minded to many opinions here and put in a plug for the ARC PH3 SE. Lots of air, some nice bloom, plenty of drive and a very satisfying phono stage. It is not "dry" as some have said, but it is fast and accurate. In the same league is the Sonic Frontiers Phono 1SE (not the earlier SF models).A great phono stage and one of the quietest around for tube designs - I sold it to help pay for my Aesthetix IO and sometimes I wish I had not needed to do that to keep the boss happy.
These days I am very happy with my IO SIg, but the Allnic products have a great reputation and have the Albert Porters of this world signed up. I will try one of these shortly.
I would also like to mention the less discussed topic of pre/head amps.I have selectable impedance transformer based loading into my IO and that can make a much greater impact than most pay attention to as well as reducing noise.
If you like vintage Japanese equipment, their phono loading preamps can be very seductive and provide a lot of sublime texture not always built in to today's modern designs which go for low noise and dynamic headroom first. My current pride and joy is an Accuphase C-17 head amp and my ZYX UNIverse has never sounded better - including loading thru my ZYX pre-pre.
As always in audio, a journey with no absolute correct way forward.
Steve
On the tube side |
Add Zanden 1200 Mk 2 (or 3) to the list. In my book surely a top tier contender. Some other very good mentions above
In old phono stages Vendeatta Research was/is also an out standing performer, so much that it could belong in upper tiers. |
Hmmm Are you splitting between MM & MC phono stages?
With anything the following is based on what I heard in my system with MC cartridges - mainly my dyna XV-1.
I currently own a TW Acustic phono - wonderful phono stage, natural presentation, pure tube gain with little noise, 3 inputs are fantastic to compare tables/carts. No MM, just MC.
I also use the MM & MC inputs of my Mac MC2300 & agree with Tjnif that the MC stage is excellent.
I used a Pass Xono for quite a while and it is a solid performer that does nothing wrong and is flexible - just lacks that magic that tubes give.
EAR 834P is a fantastic little phono stage, as long as you swap the stk tubes out.
Others that I have listened to in my system are
- Aesthetix IO - single power supply - superb sound but a little noisy for me.
- Aesthetix Rhea - too noisy for LOMC
- ARC PH5 - good sounding for its price
- ARC PH7 - great sound, slightly gray thou,not as flowing as the best and low gain can cause issues in some systems
- Einstein MC - vibrant, forward & dymanic - ultimately just too much
- EAR - 88PB - fanatastic sounding phono - almost bought that before TW.
- Sutherland PHD - very pure & quiet but no micro dynamics
- Kondo M7 & KSL-SFZ - good sound but too forward/agressive and in your face. sounds better balanced as a MM without the KSL transformer.
- Ayre P5e - nice sounding but lacks a little life.
- Manly Steelhead - hifi sounding - sounds more like SS than tubes |
add a new one to the list
Paul Hynes Phono for those that have heard it's real good |
I would probably suggest adding the Hagerman Trumpet to the list, perhaps as a 1's tier if you don't need a step-up for your cartridge and 2nd tier if you do. It just doesn't have the gain for LOMC's, but otherwise is a superb phono stage. |
I owned a manley steelhead until i got my Mcintosh C2300, the phono stage surpassed the manley and I sold it. I bought a TronSeven reference and like it better than the c2300. I also use Tele Ecc803's gold pins, and 1 mullard master series 12au7, probably helps a little.... |
Pedrillo,
A lot of fine phono stages listed here, but, I wouldn't draw any sort of conclusions based on the number of favorable mentions. Some are quite rare, like the FM Acoustics, Connoisseur, and Viva Fono, so I doubt that many have heard them. At audio shows, the Io and the Lamm can be easily found, so some have at least "heard" them, though I don't see how anyone can make a fair evaluation under those circumstances.
I've heard some that have gotten widespread praise that really just did not work well in the particular system I heard them in. The whole matching thing can be quite complex. Even stages that seem so incredibly flexible and adjustable can simply not work well in certain situations.
If you are making a list of contenders to try to audition, then yes, comment here can be useful. But, if you are trying to divine some sort of "consensus" single best, this approach will not yield a useful result. Also, there are some fundamental differences in sound between tube and solid state phonostages and tube stages that use a step up transformer and those that do not. You would need to listen to different types to narrow the focus of your search.
Stratguy,
I had a Linn Linto, which I used with a Lyra Helikon. It worked very well with that particular cartridge -- lively and engaging without being unnaturally etched or edgy. I don't know how well it would work with other cartridges, particularly since it does not provide any way to adjust loading (it has a fixed resistor and a case that defies opening). I believe that either the Linn cartridges are made by Lyra or share the same designer, so there may have been a synergy with my Helikon.
Still, if you can audition the Linto with your own cartridge, I think it is a pretty good phonostage for the money.
|
Not sure about top tier, but in my system the Manley Steelhead has stood out above the rest. After it, in order, I like the...
Simaudio LP5.3 & PSX5.3 combo
BAT VK-P10se
ASR Basis Exclusive
Ayre P-5XE |
Logenn,
Can you compare the sonic qualities of the Lamm LP2 and the Allnic?
Since you own both, I'd be very interested in your evaluation. I'm not looking for a ranking (personal tastes et al), but I'm keen on your comparison of sonic characteristics. Thanks, Jeff |
Thank you for your responses.
One thing I have noticed, that the Aesthetix io consistently is considered as one of the best.
Do any other phono stages receive this recognition???? |
I haven't heard what many here would consider "top tier" phonostages but I ran the Whest PS.30 (using a Dynavector 20XM mounted on a VPI Scout) against the EAR 834P, Acoustat PH1 and the ARC PH5 and it was markedly better than all of them. Very three dimensional, quiet, detailed and dynamic. Not sure how it would compete against much pricier models since they were out of my reach. Of course all of this is very subjective and system dependent--not sure a ranking like this is really of much value. You really have to consider the cartridge and the phonostage as a package rather than rate phonostages as a stand alone item. |
Take a listen to the VAS 1 pre-amp. As all have commented, any evaluation must be done in your system, so get a loaner and check it out before you buy. |
Nice to see all the recomendations for Whest ;) |
I am reluctant to "rate" any particular product -- a lot depends on taste, system matching, etc. So, I will submit some names of phonostages that sounded really good in a particular system I heard.
I own, and really like the Viva Fono. Music through this phono stage is very vivid and harmonically dense. Like most good tube-based phonostages, notes seem to bloom into space and then decay naturally (no artificial and mechanical sounding "edge").
The better Audionote (uk) preamps, like the M-9, and separate phono stages (M-10) are very good. For solid state, I've heard a system with the Connoisseur phono stage that sounded very good -- dynamic and lively without being unduly edgy or grainy sounding.
These are all approaching "crazy" expensive, but they do deliver the goods. |
