Phono Stage upgrade to complement Dohmann Helix One Mk 2

@lewm 

I’ve been reading a little about sub woofers, and many sites do say that adding a subwoofer can make a real difference  in other areas, such as sound stage, imaging, mid-range, etc.  I’m not really sure things can sound much better, but I think it’s at least worth a trial to see if it’s any better, or possibly worse. . .

drbond, Duke Lejeune is the man to whom you refer, who is a friend to Ralph Karsten.  His business is called "Audiokinesis".  If I were to add a subwoofer, that is where I would look. Duke is the salt of the earth, a great guy and very knowledgeable about what he is doing.  I am sure that Raul's recommendation for Velodyne would also be an excellent choice. But don't let Raul and Mijo make you feel inadequate. By all means, do add a subwoof, if you perceive that you need it, in your room, for your musical tastes.

Dear @holmz ​@drbond : At the end digital tech is used in almost all today subwoofers through the DSP that is the one that can gives us ( comes with a microphone. ) where in position and to our " ears " makes the " best " system/room integration.

^All true^. However the analogue approach is well thought with the Vandy sub system.

It may not work in a system with a different filter in the speakers as the phase could be off.

And everyone one adjusts the subs with a microphone, and either potentiometers or S/W equivalent of a potentiometers.

At least knowing that there are non-DSP approaches, and mentioning it in a thread, is not a crime. We would need a way to compare that solution to the digital one☝️to be able to say whether it is better, worse, or the same.

If one is a purist then “High Pass Filtering” (HPF) the signal going to the main speakers is often a bit “on the nose” conceptually. I have no problem with DSPs, and streaming into and out of a DAC, and conceptually into and out of a DSP. But those that do, may want to know that they’re is a non-DSP approach.

And one can then use a DSP “ONLY” on the sub band without digitally touching the signal coming out of the L/R speakers.

Dear @holmz : A subwoofer is a complete solution where the crossover is only an inherent and important part of any sub ( a key like you posted. ) along the box, drivers and the like.

^Correct^. You are not the only fellow or lady that understands what a system is.

The crossover is not a second product but is part of the subwoofer it self that must has a low/high pass filters and several other functions.

The other stuff on that web-site has the subs which rely on the HPF.
(It’s part of a system)

Even this 32K dollars can’t even the Velodyne THD 0.5%. Well certainly maybe the best sub out there and you need 64K :

It is sort of important to note that the 0.5% is meaningless in the sub band…

But it becomes pretty important in terms up HD and IMD for the higher frequencies that attenuated from the filter, but still made be created in the sub itself, and then give away their location.

The subwoofer bass solution with good integration to the main speakers and room give you huge benefits. We can’t talk here of disadvantages in the same way we can’t say that a phono stage has the disadvantage of the RIAA eq. because it’s part of the phono stage in the same way that creossover is integral part of a subwoofer.

Btw, when we have well integrated subs in our system there is no come back, we learn that we can’t listen any more with out it due that helps to lower the distortions levels of not only the speakers but amplifiers too and several other advantages.

Again… you are not first to discover ^this^.

Dear @holmz ​@drbond : At the end digital tech is used in almost all today subwoofers through the DSP that is the one that can gives us ( comes with a microphone. ) where in position and to our " ears " makes the " best " system/room integration.

drbond, today there are 20+ true subwoofer manufacturers so we have a wide range about. Btw, can works really fine with your SL, no problem.

This one is the today Velodyne ( mines are out of production 16 years ago. ). My way of thinking is to go with the " winner " till be outperformed:

https://www.velodyneacoustics.com/en/products/digital-drive-plus/#digital-drive-18-plus

I know by references that its DSP software is really good. The sub’s integration is critical.

You will know if your choosed sub’s are well integrated when those subs never tells you " hey I’m here " ( boom, boom, boom.... ) but only when the MUSIC is demanding asking for. When the subs are well integrated you can’t detect from where comes the bass other that when the score ask it but when the scrore is asking for the experience is just unique/marvelous and full of emotions, nothing can even it.

R.

Even this 32K dollars can't even the Velodyne THD 0.5%. Well certainly maybe the best sub out there and you need 64K  :

https://www.magicoaudio.com/news/magico-titan-15-the-ultimate-powered-subwoofer-2

@rauliruegas 

Any recommendations for a pair of subwoofers that would work with the Sound Lab ESL's?  Also, since I know nothing about setting up subwoofers:  is there a frequency dial that you can adjust for the precise crossover frequency?  Does that mean that you then could have two sets of speakers producing that frequency:  the ESL's and the subwoofers?  (In which case do you need to dial out that frequency from the full range speakers?)
Thanks. 

Dear @holmz  :  A subwoofer is a complete solution where the crossover is only an inherent and important part of any sub ( a key like you posted. ) along the box, drivers and the like. The crossover is not a second product but is part of the subwoofer it self that must has a low/high pass filters and several other functions.

Analog or digital are only options and convenience for the audiophiles to choose in between.

The subwoofer bass solution with good integration to the main speakers and room give you huge benefits. We can't talk here of disadvantages in the same way we can't say that a phono stage has the disadvantage of the RIAA eq. because it's part of the phono stage in the same way that creossover is integral part of a subwoofer.

Btw, when we have well integrated subs in our system there is no come back, we learn that we can't listen any more with out it due that helps to lower the distortions levels of not only the speakers but amplifiers too and several other advantages.

R.

Dear @drbond  : The swarm is nothing new and the main problem is that its subs are of low quality because they think that eliminating bass standing waves almost everything is solved and it's not exactly that way in the other side the ones that sale the swarm " scenario " almost always tell the audiophiles that an advantage is that bass is " rigth " does not matters where the audiophile is seated.

Many years ago the Harrrrman Group ( JBL, Infinity, Levinson, etc, etc,. ) made a in deep scientific research ( modeling. ) about subwoofers and they determined that the ideal number in subwoofers in home be 4 subwoofers but that 2 subwoofers were enough in a home system and for one seat position.

Subwoofers mainly is not about how deep goes but before that is the quality level has that reprodutcion bass at least to 16hz. Not all subwoofers give you the same quality level.

One very well regarded subwoofers are the JL Audio that have very good look but that inside mesurements showed at full SPL and obviously at 20hz a THD of around 6%.

The Velodyne's I own measured only 0.5% on THD thanks that the sub is checking over 18K times per second the woofer excursion.

Other quality characteristic that you have to look for is that the subwoofer be a sealed design, it does not goes down to 6hz-8hz as the ported/open-box ones ( well if the sealed one design is the " rigth " one can goes to 6hz-8hz but needs not only a  bigger driver but a big box and very good construction of that box. ).

If you can find out a sealed sub with paper cone drivers the better if bass quality matters for you.

R.

It needs to be totally transparent in order to do no harm to the signal at all audio frequencies. Is there really such a thing?

One can it in analogue… there is not a requirement to do it digitally.

• If one’s glasses are thick, then the DSP makes sense.
• For people that like solder and capacitors, then analogue makes sense.

Not everyone would want a Vandersteen sub, but some do. And the crossover is a key part of it:
https://www.vandersteen.com/categories/crossovers

@rauliruegas

Thanks for your recommendations. What would be the simplest and best way to add subwoofers to the system with ESL’s? I know one guy, Duke, involved tangentially with Atma-Sphere who made a group of four sub woofers, called the Swarm, or something like that. Is there something that I could just connect to the other pair of output posts on my monoblock amplifiers, or is it much more complicated than that?

Thanks.

The article you quote is about "woofers", not in particular about "subwoofers".  You say there are no negatives.  What about the required electronic crossover?  It needs to be totally transparent in order to do no harm to the signal at all audio frequencies. Is there really such a thing? You need to choose crossover points and slopes that suit the drivers in question, as well.  I also take the point about reproducing 40Hz, but the associated issue is what the drivers do at the crossover, i.e., the highest frequency the subwoofer (woofer in your cited article) is asked to reproduce.  These considerations, especially where one is using a subwoofer to augment the response of a main speaker that can already cover the bass spectrum adequately, should be in play when one decides to use a subwoofer with an otherwise full range speaker, and if the bass augmentation is poorly implemented, then the addition of a subwoofer will be a net negative.  I never met an electronic crossover that was totally transparent.

Dear @drbond : Mainly what we listen are the developed harmonics coming from all the discrete frequencies in all the instruments in any score.

Developed harmonics " contaminate " all the frequency range and represent the MUSIC we are listen it.

That’s why is so important in any home system to tame perfectly the bass range and from here comes the subwoofers necessity/a must.

Problem is the integration with the main speakers but when that is solved then the IMD and THD goes lower than before and MUSIC starts to really shines in our room/system.

There are no disadvantages I be aware to usind subwoofers and several advantages including to the main speakers amplifiers.

In asystem with subwoofers the mid range and high frequencies are improved to levels many of us can’t imagine because with out the main speaker low bass those 2 frequency ranges are cleaned de that through the subs the bass harmonics comes with way lower distortion levels, with subwoofers disappears the bass trash developed by the bass in the main speakers: ligth comes in that room/system.

Btw, this article is a learning one about fast bass/slow bass. I took from the subwoofer dedicated thread in Agon that I started in 2005:

SoundStage! Max dB - Fast Bass, Slow Bass - Myth vs. Fact (06/1999) (soundstagenetwork.com)

R.

No. We don’t necessarily listen differently, and I often listen at high SPLs. The crux of the matter is we listen to different genres of music. For example, I’ve never heard of the group you just mentioned. It’s an interesting discussion if you can bring yourself to open your mind and quit the preaching.

As we previously concluded, my panels are 4 inches wider and both yours and mine are 96 inches in height (8 ft). Thus we calculate that mine have about 400 sq in more surface area. Even so, I am aware of the potential benefits of a subwoofer. I am also aware of the negatives.

@lewm . I'll put my black robe back on. While that is true about the double bass there is a lot more going on with a Jazz trio that will drop below 20 Hz, an undamped bass drum. The pulse you get when the bassist thumbs a string, the reverberation in the room. 

Dipoles, because they are open baffle speakers create their own set of room interactions in the lowest octaves that depending on the room and the position of the speakers in it, can be severe. If your speakers are 5 feet away from the front wall you are going to have a problem at around 100 Hz. You can easily dampen frequencies above 250 Hz using acoustic tile behind the speakers, but there is no stopping frequencies below that.  With a great room you can get reasonably flat bass throughout the room except at the walls using dynamic subwoofers. With enough power room control can take care of the rest.

By nonlinear I am referring to the tension on the diaphragm. Like any driver as the diaphragm travels over a certain point it starts to stiffen. This interferes with reproduction just like any other driver. Because of their large surface area ESL diaphragms do not have to move as far as a dynamic driver but still excursion is limited to a few mm and low bass notes at volume can easily exceed this. Sound Labs are actually worse because the diaphragm is segmented into small sections. On top of all this you have doppler distortion. Since our ESLs are "full range" drivers this affects the entire audio spectrum. With a two or three way speaker the distortion only applies to the spectrum of the woofer. 

The real issue here is we listen to music differently. I hate being volume limited while you prefer lower volumes. I also will listen to raucous music you do not like. Yes, there are very dynamic moments in classical music, My favorite is in the last movement of Stravinsky's ballet, The Firebird.  I be willing to bet I listen to that at a good 6 dB louder than you. 

Oh please!  You can preach even when you’re feeling good. There are pros and cons to the use of a subwoofer and I am aware of all of them. I wonder where you got the notion that ESLs per se as a class are nonlinear below 100Hz, and what do you mean by nonlinear? And what is the mechanism? No need to debate it here.

@lewm , the wider speakers may have more baffling effect which theoretically might help them with bass extension. My point is that I do not want them making bass at all. At the volumes I listen at with the music I listen to (Porcupine Tree is on right now) The bass greatly distorts everything else and cuts my headroom by 10 dB or so. The Sound Labs I have are not standard models. They are 8 foot tall 645s. They have exactly the same horizontal dispersion as your 845's, 45 degrees. I did not go for the 845s as the additional width would have been a tight fit in my situation and the extra surface area did not matter to me as I already had a subwoofer array and the right equipment to manage it. I was getting plenty of volume out of the Acoustats, a speaker 16" narrower than the 645-8s. I was sure the 4"s would not be a sacrifice. 

ESLs are not like dynamic speakers. They do not have the capability to take long excursions and they become non linear quickly under 100 Hz at higher listening levels. Because there is only one driver expected to cover the entire range the entire frequency range is affected by this non linearity. If you play them at lower levels avoiding the non linear zone of excursion they are fine. That is just not my style. Aside from this dipoles make very lumpy bass at best.

Subwoofers are a difficult topic. As @rauliruegas infers they are essential for realistic playback with almost any loudspeaker. Very few speakers produce adequate bass below 40 Hz. What a loudspeaker does at one meter is a far cry over what happens in a real room. The life and breath of music and the venue it was recorded in lies below 40 Hz. It is where concert halls breath and bass reverberates. It is the difference between a live performance and a transistor radio. To make realistic bass a system has to be tailored to it's environment. This requires digital signal processing. The only other way to do it is shear luck and you might as well buy lottery tickets.

Sorry for rambling on. I ripped my right forearm apart today, spent all day in an ER and am souped up on oxycodone.

Here's a reminder for the tone purists:

musical instruments (piano included) have complex harmonic structure: the fundamental has a frequency, but striking a note on a piano keyboard means as the sound resonates, many harmonics (integer multiples of the fundamental) also are generated. Each instrument has it’s own characteristic harmonic structure - what we can think of as timbre.

I think this can be summarized as "real music has distortions", albeit harmonic distortions, and, generally speaking, the louder the instrument is played, the more harmonic distortions are induced.  This musical principle may not carry over to modern electronic music.

You got me to doing some research on the internet. This is on Wikipedia in the entry about the double bass, the instrument most commonly used in a jazz rhythm section: "The lowest note of a double bass is an E₁ (on standard four-string basses) at approximately 41 Hz or a C₁ (≈33 Hz), or sometimes B₀ (≈31 Hz), when five strings are used. This is within about an octave above the lowest frequency that the average human ear can perceive as a distinctive pitch." The largest Sound Lab ESLs can easily reproduce the lowest tones in a jazz trio or small ensemble, given an amplifier that is suited to the job.

The thing is that Mijostyn chose a not very challenging piece of music (Waltz for Debby is hardly equivalent to the 1812 Overture), played by a jazz trio to boot. You say that any ESL starts to fall off at 35-40Hz. Even accepting that lower limit (which I don’t because the lower limit will be different for diaphragm surface area, stator to panel spacing, etc), there is probably nothing below 40hz (>2 octaves below middle C) in Waltz for Debby. There’s no way to prove my point, since you guys cannot make it to my listening room, but I have no problem with Bill Evans Trio playing anything at realistic SPLs. A small factor to consider also is that Mijo and I previously guesstimated that my speakers have about 400 sq in more radiating surface area compared to his (because mine are wider by 4 inches). Whether this makes a critical difference to bass extension or not, I do not know, but it doesn’t hurt. I also think the curvature of the PX speakers is greater than that of Mike’s speakers, and that might also reduce phase cancellation of bass frequencies. Finally, I do not and did not claim that using a subwoofer would not be beneficial where the music is a really severe test of bass delivery. And yes, a subwoof also helps in a more minor way to reduce distortion in upper frequencies. (Doppler distortion in panel speakers is real in theory and controversial in its actual importance.) Finally, my speakers are easier to drive than any OEM Sound Lab speaker all of which use an RC network in a passive crossover in conjunction with the bass and treble audio step up transformers. Having said all that, rest assured I do think about adding subwoofers once in a while, but if I did I would cross over at maybe 60 to 80Hz and use a very fast subwoofer that can blend with an ESL, not a behemoth. Meantime, since 80-90% if my listening is jazz, I do not feel deprived of bass.

Dear @mijostyn  : "  without subwoofers the SoundLabs will crap  a brick regardless of what amp you are using to drive them. "

You are rigth and is my experience not only with the Soundlab and other electrostatic . Electrostatic speakers could start to fail between 35hz-40hz and down listening at live MUSIC SPL and as you said it's a matters of distortion levels and that's why any passive dynamic speakers needs to works with subwoofers no matters what.

To handled " accurately " that  low bass subwoofers is a must and have not substitute.

R.

@mijostyn 

I'm in central Florida, between Tampa and Orlando, probably about 3-4 hours from Miami.  If you're interested in listening to the Dohmann, and the CH Precision P1, just PM me.  If you can bring your (soon to be new) Channel D along to A-B, that would be fun!  

"If you play a Bill Evans record, say Waltz for Debby at the volume the music had that night at the Village Vanguard, without subwoofers the SoundLabs will crap  a brick regardless of what amp you are using to drive them."

With all respect, this is just wrong. Even though I am sick of "Waltz for Debby", though never sick of Bill Evans. And while I am sure there may be a rendition of WfD on one of the live VV performance albums (I’d have to check), he also recorded it in at least one studio session. Here’s where I debate whether to bring up the modification I made to the SL crossover that improved both efficiency and the impedance curve to suit our OTL amplifiers. The 845PX can reproduce the lowest frequencies of the bass player (Paul Motian?) on WfD at very satisfying SPLs. What it cannot do is blast you out of your seat on a hard rock recording, which I am sure Mijo’s subwoofers CAN do. And my Atma OTLs are more like MA1s than MA2s in terms of power output. (They are neither, use type 7241 triodes as output tubes on MA2 chassis’ using MA2 power transformers.)

@drbond , Yes of course. It announces every frequency as it goes down and has two tracks, one for vertical resonance and the other horizontal.

I do not have to worry about MA2’s making bass. I cross to subs digitally at 100 hz, 48 dB/oct. It is not about bass. It is about distortion and realistic volume levels. If you play a Bill Evans record, say Waltz for Debby at the volume the music had that night at the Village Vanguard, without subwoofers the SoundLabs will crap  a brick regardless of what amp you are using to drive them.

I am down in Florida all the time. My sister lives just north of Miami and my step mother just south of Miami. You never come to New England? You need to come up the second week in October and see the colors. In Florida all you have is endless flatness, a few palm trees and hurricanes not to mention DisneyLand.

@mijostyn @lewm 

So, it sounds like all three of us have SoundLab ESL's!  That's quite unusual.  Insofar as bass in SoundLabs is concerned, I would have to agree with @lewm .  I've had the Atma-Sphere MA-2's hooked up to my speakers, and while the sound is quite pure, and the mid-range is perfect, they do have difficulty producing bass in the speakers.  It seems that the SoundLabs perform very well without subwoofers with my amplifier.  But, it appears we are veering off topic. . . 

Unfortunately, we live in opposite poles of the country, as I'm in Florida, so I don't know that we'll be able to compare components easily.  

@mijostyn 

Does that track for resonance frequency on the Test LP inform you which frequency is being played; if not, how is it determined which frequency the stylus is vibrating to? 
Thanks. 

Or you can come to my house and hear great bass response from a pair of 845PXs with no subwoofers. ESLs don’t “hate” bass. They are hampered by diaphragm to stator spacing, bias voltage, panel size, and phase cancellation. And by amplifiers.

@lewm , quite correct. You have to factor in the weight of the cartridge. The single best way to do that is by measurement. If the resonance frequency is off, too high, mass can always be added. This is the advantage of having an arm on the light side. It is much harder to remove mass from a heavy arm. The Schroder arms have cartridge mounting plates of three masses and counterweights of three sizes. They can be adjusted for just about any cartridge. 

@drbond, the CH is a fine phono stage. It is not the Channel D Seta L20. I have a naturally aspirated 911, a Speed Yellow C4S.  You only drive around at 40 mph. I prefer 100 mph. Above that in New Hampshire is classified as reckless driving which takes speeding to a whole other level legally. You would still benefit from a proper subwoofer array, just not as much as someone who listens to Metallica at 100 dB. It is not just the added bass but the lower distortion everywhere else. Any bass note in a full range speaker is going to Doppler distort everything else the driver is trying to reproduce. If you can see the diaphragm moving it is Doppler distorting all other frequencies. I have observed naked ESRs on numerous occasions. You can see diaphragm excursions up to about 100 Hz. Which is where I cross over to subs. Even at 100 dB you can not see my diaphragms move. The difference in sound quality is exceptional. 

Where do you live? 

Mijo wrote, "A given cartridge is going to require an arm of a given effective mass." My only point was and is that the cartridge and the mounting hardware ARE part of the effective mass of a functioning tonearm, their mass must be included if you use the equation for resonant frequency.  An atypically heavy cartridge, like some of the Benz cartridges and others, can add ~10g and more to effective mass, turn the 17g Schroeder into a 27g effective mass, because of course the mass of the cartridge is directly on top of the cantilever/stylus. (That's assuming that Schroeder makes no allowance for the cartridge weight when they state the EM of the CB tonearm at 17g.)

@mijostyn 

Just to clarify:  the LP test record has a track with various frequencies, and when the frequency that is played causes the stylus warble, that's the resonance frequency?  (and each change in frequency is annoted on the LP?)

I personally only listen to acoustic/classical/jazz music, and the bass provided by the SoundLabs is just perfectly realistic:  just enough vibration from the tympani, double bass, etc.  (I also prefer a naturally aspirated 911 to a turbo!)

Yes, as you know I purchased the CH Precision P1/X1.  Just out of curiosity, it would be interesting to compare the CH Precision to the Channel D, but I don't know that it would be any better.  Once you get your new driveway and Channel D, let me know, and we'll have to find a way to compare them!  

From Channel d website:

Seta L20 mk2 MSRP $63,000.00 / Factory direct price $42,000.00

@mijostyn those new windows for the wife are now almost free! 😉

@drbond , The Hi Fi News Analog Test Record. You will know when you hit the resonance frequency because the tone will warble. You might even see the tonearm shake.

Off topic a bit. I have been using ESLs since 1979. I now have 8 foot 645's. Roger West calls them 645-8s. ESLs HATE making bass. They will do it in a very lumpy fashion but it adds significant distortion to everything else. You get away with it only if you listen to less aggressive music at lower volumes, less than 80 dB. However Pink Floyd at 95 dB, forget it. You really need to get 4 subwoofers. It is a PITA and you have to make some other changes but I would NEVER use ESLs without them. It is like putting turbos in a 911. 

Back on topic. You really need to look into the Channel D Seta L 20 Phono stage. It is an insane piece of gear. It has the lowest signal to noise ratio of any phono stage on the market, a lot lower. It will run any cartridge made in either Voltage, Current or MM mode. It will use digital RIAA correction and you can record anyones special records to a hard drive in 24/192. Everyone I have run an AB between the vinyl and it's recording can not tell the difference. I have The Seta L Plus the L20's little brother. Just because I am running very low impedance cartridges in current mode, it is the best sounding phono stage I have ever heard in my system. The L20 is 12 dB quieter!! That is just a stunning figure. I have trouble running the MC diamond running into noticeable noise at higher volumes. I hope to get myself an L20 in the future. Channel D will give you 80% of the price on trade in. The L20 is $50,000. My problem is getting it by the wife. I will have to give her a detached garage, new windows and a new paver driveway first. My Atma-Sphere MA2 amplifiers cost me a hot tub with landscaping. Being married is very expensive. Being alone is worse. 

@mijostyn 

Ah, so that makes more sense:  you're not looking to necessarily change the effective mass of the tonearm, just its tracking ability, by decreasing its inertia.  

What type of terst record do you use to measure the resonance frequency of your set up?  (I don't think that the AnalogMagik does a good job at determining resonance frequencties, as every reading I've gotten from that portion of the software is way off the charts, in which case it says that the result is worthless.)

@drbond, ​​@lewm is correct. However the critical issue here is the resonance frequency of the tonearm-cartridge combination. A given cartridge is going to require an arm of a given effective mass. Since you can not adjust the cartridge you adjust the effective mass of the tonearm. In the case of the Schroder CB you can do this with different mass cartridge mounting plates and different mass screws or even headshell weights. You then position the counterweight to achieve the correct VTF. With the Schroder you have the choice of several counterweights. With a heavier counterweight you will move it closer to the pivot to achieve the same VTF. This also keeps the arm's effective mass exactly the same, but what it does do is decrease the arms moment of inertia which improves the arms ability to track warps and eccentricities. 

Never set up an arm by specification. Set up and arm by testing. Equations are close to worthless when it comes to adjusting the resonance frequency of a cartridge-arm combination. There are too many variables involved. The specifications are ballpark only. You get a good test record and learn exactly what the resonance frequency is and make adjustments as required. I always shoot for 8 Hz and will settle for a little below but never higher. I also balance my own wheels.

Does the CB manual state whether the value of 17g is inclusive of the weight/mass of a "typical" cartridge and mounting hardware?  If not, then add the weight of the cartridge plus hardware to the figure of 17g.  I enjoy the math and science of this stuff, but in all honesty, on a personal level, just make it work and enjoy yourself.  I don't know where you were going with your question about the brass, but for sure the material used for the CW makes no difference to SQ.  The density of the metal might come into play where you are concerned about the size of the CW, in order so it fits as close as possible to the pivot.  In that case, density is the parameter to go by, but at the same time, I say don't bother.

@mijostyn 

Sounds interesting, but I would think that it would be simplest to use a lighter cartridge mouting plate and move the counter weight forward based on that as opposed to adding a heavier counter weight, which would then affect the effective mass of the tonearm in a more difficult way.  

The Schroder CB manual says that the effective mass of the 11 inch tonearm is 17g.  However, it doesn't say at which distance from the bearing housing that calculation is based upon, but I guess it doesn't matter that much.  So, getting a heavier counter weight would allow me to place it closer to the pivot point, but then that would lower the effective mass of the tonearm, which would affect the interaction with the compliance of the cartidge.  I don't see how a tonearm with a lower effective mass is neccessarily better than a tonearm with a slightly higher effective mass. 

@drbond , The stock counter weights are brass. It is a slightly different alloy from the stock I have access to. The counter weight should be within a centimeter of the bearing housing. If it is farther away you need a more massive weight. 

@mijostyn

As far as I can tell, the counter weights that I have work fine, but I haven’t tried anything else, so possibly brass counter weights would work better, or possibly worse. Is there a theoretical "best"?  (I, personally, would have no idea as to whether the brass would be better or worse than the "stock" counter weight, or how to calculate such measurements.)

Thanks.

@drbond, I can make mounting plates but I thought it was a counter weight you needed. The counter weight of the CB is in two pieces. The larger section unscrews from the top section through which the tonearms shaft passes. There are three different bottom sections. The arm comes with the intermediate section then there is a lighter one and a heavier one. Both @lewm  and @rauliruegas  are entirely correct. Depending on the mass of the cartridge and the VTF you want to choose the counterweight that gets you closest to the pivot. Personally, I think the arm should come with all three weights. Being able to make the weights allows me to tune the situation exactly. It is just basic machining and now that I have all the drills and taps required I can turn them out rapidly. Brass is easy to polish and get a mirror finish. The only problem is matching the color. Most people would never notice unless it was pointed out to them. 

I assume you got the arm from Dohmann with the table. I would contact them first to see if they have additional cartridge mounting plates. Get at least one of each so you can be prepared for any eventuality.

Effective mass of the tonearm will be related to the mass of the CW X (distance from center of mass of CW to pivot)-squared. So if you want to minimize EM then you’re nbest off with a heavier CW placed closer to the pivot.

@lewm @rauliruegas 

Thanks for clarifying:  my counterweights are about equidistant from the pivot to the end of the tonearm, so I don't think anything extra is needed there.  I think perhaps @mijostyn meant a brass cartridge mounting plate as opposed to brass counterweight. . . but maybe I'm wrong.  

You know you need a heavier CW if your present CW is insufficient in weight to achieve the desired VTF with your particular cartridge. If you’re at the end of rear travel of the CW in order to achieve VTF, then too you might consider a heavier CW so you can get it closer to the pivot and still achieve VTFlike Raul said.

@drbond  : Always that we can is healthy that the counterweigth be as close the tonearm pivot/bearing as is posible because between other things improves the LP tracking.

R.

@mijostyn 

Thanks for offering to make a brass counterweight for the CB tonearm.  Is the counterweight simply a heavier cartridge mounting plate?  How would I know if I need one.  Presently, I just move the weight back and forth to adjust for VTF.  

Thanks. 

@holmz , You are referring to what Frank Schroder calls cartridge mounting plates. They are made from one of three materials, a phenolic plastic for very compliant cartridges, Certal (an aluminum alloy) for medium compliance cartridges and brass for low compliance cartridges. Most cartridges will do fine on the Certal plate. Cartridges like the Koetsus and the MC Diamond require the brass plate. 

The two outside holes are drilled at 1/2" centers, 2.5mm and the center hole is drilled and tapped for an M3 cap screw. I add a finger lift to all my plates. I find using a finger lift is a much more stable and reliable system of handling the tonearm. $12,000 cartridges are at risk. Frank does not add anything to his arms that might resonate including finger lifts and tonearm rests. I added a locking tonearm rest to my turntables plinth. My finger lifts are dampened with heat shrink tubing. They are made from non magnetic stainless steel wire. Drilling a hole in the side of the plates can be a daunting proposition but with a milling machine and the appropriate vise you should not have a problem. I use an interference fit with added high strength loctite. After the wire is mounted I bend it to shape.

This is what I do. All my cartridges are mounted on an appropriate plate. With the cartridge mounted and VTF set I put the stylus down on a rotating old record I do not mind scratching and measure the distance from the record to the top of the cartridge mounting plate. That distance is recorded on a 3 X 5 file card. I the use a Wally Referance tool to set both VTA and Azimuth using this measurement. There is a VTA scale on the tonearm's post. That number is also recorded. This puts the tonearm exactly coplanar with the record surface. I then set tonearm overhang for Lofgren B using a SmarTractor. I scribe a very fine line on the top surface of the mounting plate using the front surface of the arm as a guide. I can now return to the specs for that particular cartridge instantly with just a VTF gauge. Next is the hard part you need special equipment for. I verify both VTA and azimuth with a horizontal USB microscope similar to the WallyScope but much more stable. The WallyScope works but it is a bit of a PITA to use. Getting the stylus in center field and focused with a scope on a wobbly stage takes patience and a very delicate hand. Since I have neither, I constructed a horizontal microscope using the scope and camera of the WallyScope and the entire stage mechanism of an old medical microscope. It is an odd looking affair but much more stable and easier to use than the WallyScope. I have discussed this with J.R. who modified his stage a bit and it is better but still a far cry from a medical microscope. Fortunately, for these measurements you only need the low power objective which is much easier to deal with. The higher powers are needed to assess stylus wear and Zenith. Measuring angles is easy. Amscope has a program for microscopes. You can snap lines and the computer will calculate the angles for you. My standards are a VTA of 92 degrees +- 0.5 degrees and an azimuth of 90 degrees +- 0.5 degrees. All my current cartridges, the Lyra Atlas SL, MC Diamond and the MSL Signature Platinum are within spec so none of the adjustments needed modification and no shims are required. I do not measure Zenith. I do look at the styluses and take pictures of their initial shape for comparison purposes (easier to see wear), all of these cartridges are in spec by eye. At the price of these cartridges, if they were not in spec I would return them with pictures validating the problem. Actually, I would do that with a cartridge at any price. If a cartridge does not match up to it's published specifications it is by definition defective and should be replaced, no shims required. 

Thanks @rauliruegas 

@mijostyn that was a gentlemanly offer to Bond.

I have some taps and access to a milling machine.
So let me understand this…

The alloy piece with the 1 hole in the middle and then the 2 holes for the cartridge. It is that that you make out of brass?

And then maybe 2+ of them and have the cart all set on each, and then when it gets swapped on you adjust nothing but VTF?

And one still sets the Azimuth, Zenith, and VTA?

Or is the cart shimmed (Wally style) so that it is just set the height (VTA) and VTF, which witching carts?

@holmz : " so how important is all this stuff? "

Wel, today almost only through Löfgren alignments is the way to set up any cartridge along a pivoted tonearm. So it’s way important.

Now, Löfgren alignments exist and its internet calculators ( Vlinyl Engine has other good calculator alternative. ) and what’s important is tomake the cartridge/set up as accurate we can do it. Tiny errors with the set up makes a difference for not so good quality performance. Many times we even are not aware of those errors because through evaluations listen sessions we really don’t know what to look for.

The other parameters in a set-up as VTA/SRA/Zenith/AZ/VTF and the like are way imortant too to achieve the best quality performance levels we can

Even that we can take extreme care on the overall set-up you can be sure is not perfect as always exist trade-offs due the intrinsical relationship between all those parameters where ( example ) a change in VTF changes too other parameters that you have to modify and is an almost endless situation.

So, we have to try that our cartridge/tonearm be at its best each one of us can.

Btw and I already posted: unidin is not a new alignment that could needs a especial calculator with different equations that the Löfgren alignments, unidin is only a manipulation of the input parameters in the normal calculators but forgeret that as Stevenson A is inferior alignment to the LÖfgren ones. Don't worry about.

R.

@drbond , If you are having trouble getting a CB counterweight I would be happy to make one for you. I had the same problem and the stock weight was too heavy for the cartridge I was using at the time. I asked everyone for a counterweight. Even Frank Schroder could not supply one in a reasonable period of time. Thrax was totally unresponsive which really pissed Frank off. Anyway, I got a brass blank and turned it on my wood lathe. The only way you can tell it from a stock weight is the color is a little darker otherwise it is an exact replica. You just have to tell be what weight you want. I still have quite a lot of that brass blank left. I also could not get any extra cartridge mounting plates from Thrax. Frank graciously supplied those. 

Thanks @rauliruegas .

I was using this:

I see it says effective length: 239.3 (but I have a CB-9 not Bond’s CB-11)

And then and here: 

I see it says effective length (IES/RIAA):

• Baerwald: 239.296
• Loefgren B: 239.749
• Stevenson: 237.418
• AP: 237.411 

I thought that Loefgren was 2mm different, but it is Stevenson and AP that are.
And whether it is DIN, IEC/RIAA etc changes things.

Using DIN I see it as:

• Baerwald: 238.336
• Loefgren B: 238.804
• Stevenson: 236.488
• AP: 236.531 

On IEC/RIAA, the 0.447 mm is about 20 thou, so it would be easy to end up Loefgren-B if one wanted Baerwald, but did not account for the drag pulling cantilever back and changing effective length to make it longer.

But going from IEC/RIAA to DIN, then everything jumps about a mm, so how important is all this stuff?
(One can basically get whatever one wants for effective length.)

Are there UNIDEN and other calculators?
And the calculator gives a graph with the Y-axis denoted as “distortion %age”… and the relationship between angular error a distortion becomes a bit obfuscated.

Dear @holmz ​@drbond  : In reality Schroder is using Löfgren alignment the A one.

Things are that years after Löfgren created his alignments A/B Baerwald alignment solution gives exactly the same value set up parameters however almost all audiophiles gave to Baerwald the credit for that alignment when was not Baerwald who first did it but Löfgren with his A solution.

R.

I'm contemplating this battery phono from Japan CSPort 

Mike Lavigne says it punches way above its price point 

Thanks for sharing your experience with Dohmann, and the details about cartridges that you discussed together! I’ll have to look into that WAM zenith disc, but I’ve been using the AnalogMagik software with decent results, and there is one aspect of that software, while not perfect, I’ve read can be used to help with zenith: apparently somehow the VTA measurement may actually do a better job at measuring zenith.

The WAM people mention their micro scope measurements and they a small USB microscope at the edge if the record to get SRA, and then shim the cartridge to get SRA to ~92 degrees.

Even with VTA at zero, many cart can have SRA be off by many degrees.

The azimuth adjustment with the AnalogMagik software seems to do a good job, getting the crosstalk to match between channels, but there’s no way to measure that SRA, so I’ll have to watch that video one weekend, and see if it’s worth it.

They have some 3-10 minute videos on the SRA and microscopes on the WAM site.

Presently, I just use electonic level in my phone camera, and use that to verify that the tonearm is level (0 degrees) when playing.

I guess I should try the Baerwald alignment now that I’ve been listening to the UNIDIN for a few months. . .

Others have said the Loefgren is better, so not having done the maths and graphs yet, I would not personally rush into it… But Frank (Schroder) designs it for Baerwald, and he also seems to know what he is doing.
Perhaps one late afternoon or evening you could try calling Nirvana Audio +61-3-… and ask Mark. He likes the Schroder arms and speaks highly of Frank, and would likely know.
As mentioned in the previous thread… personally I think that the Azimuth, Rake (SRA/VTA) and Zenith are more important… and Mark seemed to agree, and we quickly had moved onto the AudioMagic and talking about WAM and how they attack these versus how AudioMagic approached it. And he is involved with both, and carries both products.

@rauliruegas mentioned .04% RMS distortion, but I know what that is in angular space. I would be more worried about SRA and Zenith, and get a USB scope or the WAM measurement service and shims… to remove a potential “handful of degrees”, before stressing about smaller errors from Baerwald, Loefgren or UNIDEN.

I think that the turntable sounds phenomenal!

^This last statement^ makes me think that maybe it is good enough 😊

My setup was suffering some remaining sibilance on the hottest recordings, so I upgraded the arm and cart to try and ameliorate that. And the table rebuilt sort of snuck in there.
If it was not for sibilance on some hot pressings, I would have called it a day and just kept listening.
The Helix I heard at the HQ sounds like a similar set up to yours, but maybe a different cart. It sounded great…

1. Was it better than my old TT with the old arm and old cart?
   1. “Yeah it was, but not by miles on good pressings.”
2. Did it ever sound bad to the point where I was paying attention to tracking flaws or sibilance?
   1. Never (not like my old arm/cart sometimes can.)

Once one forgets that there is a system there, and the music just flows, then for me I have sort of “arrived”.

One aspect that I think stands out is the balance of the presentation: the music is just balanced, so that the instruments are distinct, clear, and yet communicative and musical. There isn’t one range that overwhelms another.

I have two Schroder CB 11 tonearms installed, and I’ve used four cartridges thus far: the Lyra Atlas, Koetsu Urushi Black, My Sonic Lab Ultimate Platinum, and Lyra Etna Lambda SL. Presently, the latter two are installed.

If you’re ever visiting central Florida and want to listen, send me a message.

I am unlikely to visit Florida, but if I do get to the area… then, in the double negative sense, “I wouldn’t say no.” 😉

Mark Döhmann runs Nirvana Sound in Australia, as well as having his own website. You could reach out to him and discuss. I’ve spoken to him about phono stage and cartridge recommendations in the past. He’s really responsive and a wealth of knowledge.

@mattn22 posted while i was typing… and said it more clearly. (Just call)

If I do not end up buying the Zenith disk, then the next time I am in Melbourne, I’ll likely stop by and drop off a “thank you” token. (Which is usually 750ml)
It is like a symbolic offering 😇

Mark Döhmann runs Nirvana Sound in Australia, as well as having his own website. You could reach out to him and discuss. I’ve spoken to him about phono stage and cartridge recommendations in the past. He’s really responsive and a wealth of knowledge.