Persona 3f vs B&W 802D2s

Persona 3F - no brainer. B&W are all colored with their house sound.

Hi,

Owning past BW I found they enjoy lot o watts. Although their specs indicate something different.

Many posts here mention like Wilson’s of the past, possibly present, easing up the top end as a good idea or even a prerequisite with BW. Using tube somewhere seems the usual remedy.

I’m inclined to agree, although the Diamonds may have made this point possess less weight.

FWIW…..
At this level of investment, it could well be worth a road trip to check out one or the other, or even one at a time to get some idea as to your preffs.

Good luck.

@shadorne

Did you advise folks at world famous Abbey Road studio about the colored house sound 😏

OP, 

+1, 802D2.  

@lalitk

Here is the Stereophile measurements. See if you can spot the giant gaping mid range cavernous hole in the off axis response from 1 to 4KHz? Notice the peak at 4 KHz where the tweeter kicks in? Notice the 7dB resonant one note boosted bass response (looks like Mt St Helens before the eruption). The mid range is far to big to be driven up to 4KHz - the driver is already beaming at 1KHz. This is awful speaker design or brilliant speaker design. Brilliant perhaps because it sells in a demo as this speaker permanently plays as though the bass and treble tone control were boosted on the preamp - so it wins in a shop floor demo as it always sounds more "hi-fi ish" to unwitting listeners looking to compare before buying speakers.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/bw-802d-loudspeaker-measurements

There is BBC dip and there is mid range scoop and then there is B&W that take things to whole other level.

If Abbey Road uses these speakers then they must be endorsed or else they just like permanently big bass, recessed mids and boosted treble (although you can achieve that with neutral speakers with your tone controls).

@shadorne 

Please share measurements on 802D2.  The article you’re referencing is for 802D which is an older model. 

Thanks!

@lalitk 

I havent seen measurements but by all accounts the changes were mostly cosmetic (silver trim and magnets for the grill).

Of course if a new version of the same speaker model sounded completely different then that would mean that B&W cant even design consistent products.

@shadorne

You’re clearly not a fan of B&W and that’s quite alright. But I expect you to conduct a thorough research before you diss a fine product.

In addition to minor cosmetics changes, the D2 version made significant improvements starting with the Rohacell woofers redesigned with smaller dustcaps, but their smaller size is a function of a B&W’s new "mushroom" diaphragm construction, which bonds the cone, dustcap, and voice-coil bobbin into a single unit rigid as a girder. A more potent electromagnetic engine drives the new woofers, powered by a motor system with two neodymium magnets to provide a more symmetrical magnetic field over long excursions, thereby reducing distortion and increasing dynamic response.

D2 diamond tweeter was reengineered as well. It has a new suspension, and four high-permeability magnets are used to reduce dynamic compression at high volumes.

And lastly, the use of gold-silver-oil Mundorf capacitors in the HF crossover filter.

Hmmm...I see how all of the above adds up to very colored sound :-)

In some circles, continues improvements over a existing design is a sign of forward progress and not a sign of inconsistency.

PS: I believe Benchmark didn’t start with DAC3, it was culmination of design improvements over DAC1 and DAC2.  

We are displaying dealers for the Paradigms and have a fairly good idea between the two brands.

Obvioulsy we are Paradigm biased but here goes:

1: The Personas have a much greater degree of coherency as the Persona uses the same exact material for the tweeter and the midrange, the 7 inch Pure Beryillium midrange driver is just extraordinary, it is fast, and uncolored and because the midrange and tweeter diapharams are made out of the same material you will never know that you are listening to two different drivers.

vs

B&W Diamond/alloy tweeter and graphite based/kevlar varient, ie two completely different materials, that do sound differently


2 Technology the PPA or Phase aligned lens on the midrange and tweeter help to refocus stray reflected sound waves off of the drivers, this technology is partly resonsible for the speakers holographic sound qualities

vs

B&W conventional driver technology, ie they don't offer such a holographic image

3:  Resolution, Beryilium drivers are incredibly stiff and very light so the response time in terms of snap and dynamics are incredible.

Here is how I would set them up

One make sure you have plenty of good clean power, tube preamp/solid state amp or a hybrid amp

Two: A warm dac or table

Three: Isoacoustics footers we have tested them and they are amazing, with  most speakers waiting on correct size for Paragidm so future tweek

Four: Wamer cable

Five: Add a JL Audio subwoofer to help round out the deep bass which the 3F has but not enough.this will make a huge improvement in warmth and slam. 

Hope that helps.

Dave and Troy
 
Audio Doctor NJ

@real_music777

+1

Here is the 802 D3

https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-802-d3-diamond-loudspeaker-measurements

Still has a hole in the midrange off axis but overall a much more balanced speaker than the D2. The bass response looks good and the waterfall is superb.

@audiotroy 

I am leaning toward the Paradigm mostly because my wife loves the look and absolutely hates the B&W.

Unfortunately the shop selling the Paradigm did not give me much confidence that he really new how to pair the equipment.  His recommendations for Amps:
Anthem STR
Bryston 4B cubed
McIntosh MC302
and the Anthem AVM60 processor
The primary purpose is music but it is in a room with a television and one day I may expand and add a center and surround.  But I told him I wanted a 2 channel dedicated processor/preamp that has pass through for when I add the additional channels.  So he did not really follow my request.

What preamp and amp would suggest?

Thanks for your help!
~Mobius

Please contact us for the most indepth info but here is what I would say

Anthem STR a nice integrated good sound, good punch the speakers deserve even better

Bryton way too dry, unless matched with a good tube preamp

Mcintosh warm lacks detail and resolution in my opinion way over priced for the level of sound quality

Anthem AVM 60 great pre/pro for the money not as good sounding as the Audio Control/Arcam stuff, 

If music is your passion then the best option would be to get a good 2 channel setup, take the optical digital out of the TV set the TV to output PCM digital and run that output into the digital input of a dac or an integrated

One of our favorites Naim Uniti Nova $7,000.00 or the new Micromega M150 or depending on volume the less expensive M100 at $4500

The Micromega is very tube like. with a wonderful rich midrange, Naim similar runs out of steam a bit earlier.

If you love rock add a good sub as indicated. 

Stay away from brighter cables AQ, Nordost, Wireworlds are very well balanced. 

Again hope that helps.

Best electronics we have ever used T+A audio from Germany, absolutely amazing sound, build quality and technology, a bit expensive but destination gear. 

Your wife is right on the looks the Personas are sexy without too much bling and now you can also get magnetic grills. 

If you set them up correctly they are astonishing.

If you are in our neck of the woods New Jersey?NY Metro we have them on display in our shop.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

I would add that there are two distinct strategies you can imploy:

1: Preamp/processor and amp this will give you the ease of integrating TV and alloy for easy transition to surround sound Pros/Cons paying for stuff you are not using right now, and less resolution with lower quality dacs built into preamp/processor, depending on unit some have decent music streaming.

2: High end integrated amplifier which would sound best for music, and you can add a surround sound receiver if and when you decide to do Home Theater, many of today’s integrated amplifiers have a Home Theater bypass function so it is easy to do so. The only con with this approach is you would have to add the surround receiver later.

As I mentioned before it is easy to set up the TV to output audio to a high end integrated

Products like the Naim Uniti have wonderful music streaming app and have buiilt in Tidal and Spotify connect, Apt X Blue tooth. Airplay and Google Chromecast. So you can basically stream the world with a nearly unlimited supply fo music.

Another cool feature is Roon integration is coming to Naim, the Micromega shows up with Airplay. 

Another nice thing with the Naim sleek not to big and not to heavy, all you would need would be one set of speaker cables,

Also if you have a wife and family the Naim app is super easy to use and makes an excellent way to add whole house audio with products from the Naim Muso line, think Sonos but better.

The Micromega is similar to the Naim in some ways a bit better does not have a great app, but does have an excellent room correction feature that can help tame live rooms, which many Florida houses tend to have.

With both the Naim or Micromega products you would have money left over for a good set of speaker cables and a sub.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

I absolutely would say Personas.  

Nothing against the B&W, as I think these are the best line they have ever made (and I appreciate the look), but I just think the Personas are more coherent in the mid/treble region, more holographic, and better looks by a little bit.  The main reason, is amazingly enough, the Personas are considerably more engaging and musical to me and every one of my friends who are into audio (one being a die hard B&W fan who has had the old school 801’s, and the just barely discontinued 802s).
 
Paradigm made something very special.   I just wish the price jump from 3F to 5f got you a bigger performance leap, but according to Paradigm, they underpriced the 3F to hit a magical price point.  Once you realize that, the cost of the rest of the line makes sense.  The 3F is definitely a steal at the asking price.

yeah seriously, the802d measurements are really bad.
harman room demonstarete that the JBL lsr6332 in a blind test is prefered over the 800D

Hey Contuzzi right on, that is why we say add a good sub which helps round out the sound and give some additional augmentation.

One of the other main differences between the 5F and the 3F is the larger cabinet size interacts in the room to produce a bigger overall sonic picture.

The 3F are indeed a bargin especailly considering the remakable driver technology. 

Setup correctly absoulutely amazing we would take the Person 3F over many much more expensive loudspeakers and when used with a sub you would have to spend a boat load more money to find something better even twice the price. 

The new Naim stuff is awesome we have the little Atom and it sound crazy good, the Nova replaces the Super Uniti which was pretty special in its day, the new Nova is supposed to come much closer to Naim's $13k Nac 272/250DR setup for $7k.

https://hometheaterreview.com/naim-uniti-atom-all-in-one-wireless-music-player-reviewed/?page=2

The Personas were one of the best speakers at RMAF this fall . Stat like in room presence of instruments and singers . Perfect frequency response is how I would describe them . All of this in a tiny hotel room . Can’t imagine how great they must be in a good sized treated room . On my short list of speakers to buy , along with Triangle Signature Alpha speakers .

I'll second that....the Personas did sound great at RMAF.  The bass in particular was just outstanding.  They did have room correction employed thought so that is something to consider.

Oh yeah , The bass . Crazy tight bass in a tiny room . Most other "big speakers" in other rooms sounded boomy . Just amazing bass .

B&W have a few design principals and it makes their sound a specific taste. The first and for most important being they are a very mid range forward design and the intent being to create an immediate and palpable vocal performance.

They use their FST mid driver to cover the entire range and push the crossover at much higher point to the tweeter to ensure it covers the entire range. What is being described as beaming here is simply not and you would have to speak to the engineers on what is going on there. In the current edition, the acceptable point in which beaming becomes significant issue would be around 2.6khz (note the speaker seems to regain its dispersion in this area where normally it should continue to fall off and the falloff of the driver should begin in small degrees at 1.8khz).

This may be an effect of the FST in the mid driver or something done in the crossover that produces that forward sound and has the upper mid suck out. What it certainly means is the speaker setup will likely require more toe in to gain balance and that the sweet spot may not be very wide for that suck out range. I had seen an in room measurement if a properly set up pair and it was very flat across the entire audio band. I think setup would be key in getting proper balance from a B&W.

I can understand why they may use a B&W at Abbey Road. Studio monitors are often not entirely balanced and focus on the mids to give the engineer a clear picture on whats going on. A mid forward speaker as such might allow easier detailing of the midrange in the mix than a more forgiving design. You'll have to listen to it yourself to determine if this sound is for you.  I personally don't enjoy as it doesn't serve all recordings reasonably well. For some though, its right where its at for them.

Thank you all very much for all of the replies and helpful feedback.

I have decided to order the Persona 3f's with a dedicated 2 channel preamp processor and 2 channel amp.  If I add a center and rears later I will get the Anthem AVM60 and put the 2 channel preamp as pass through.  I have a blue sound Node 2 that I will use to stream music from Tidal and an Oppo blue ray player for CD's.  Given this setup which amp and preamp would you recommend?

Thanks again, it is much appreciated!

Not sure why you have to buy something that may require warmer cables, preamp, etc.  I have not heard those speakers personally but know the guys in NJ are good people.  I have not heard B&W's in a long time since my matrix days.  They always seemed to have a beautiful mid-range but to me lacked high frequency refinement and openness.  It has been a long time though.  I don't think you can go wrong either way and then you will have to do some electronics matching for optimal sound it seems like either way.  IMO WAF can be a big plus!  HA!  Happy Listening.

With speakers it's very subjective so you should try to audition above all. Barring that I would say that the previous poster james_w514 has probably auditioned more high end speakers in his own home than all of us other posters combined. I would definitely give his opinion some weight. 

We just set up a set of Persona 9H on the weekend and boy did they sound natural.

We compared them to the playback of a real Steinway and it was very close.

Talked with a guy from South Africa who is leaning towards the Personas.

Heard a big set of Magicos & Solution at the Capitol Audio Fest again no contest

You made a wise decison on the Personas the biggest issue is the flak that they continue to get when compared to many of the legacy brands.

You are going to love them.

Dave owner
Audio Doctor