Pass XP-17 and Hana ML loading question

Normal line noise sounds like low background noise that you can hear when switching from let say CD input to Phono, and I get that one but  when table is connected to preamp normal line noice is covered with slightly higher pitch static like sound.

static is generated somewhere between cartridge and Preamp I can't figure out if its is inner generated or pick from some kind of electric fields generated by what I suspect TV hanging above.

@ssg308 By static do you mean a crackling sound? One cause of this is a platter pad that has a high tendency to produce static electricity, such as one made from felt (which should only be used for DJ use and not in a home stereo as they have no sonic benefit).

You might also have a bad ground; a bad connection, the platter not grounded or the arm not grounded.

SSG, when you say you hear hiss at “above 70db”, are you talking Soind Pressure Level (SPL) or voltage? If SPL, bow are you measuring that? 70 db SPL at the listener position is not very loud. Anyway, hiss when you crank the volume control on a solid state preamplifier is usually a sign it’s gain is inadequate for the input signal voltage OR RFI.

@atmasphere 

It looks like correlation arm/cartridge is spot on, static is generated somewhere between cartridge and Preamp I can't figure out if its is inner generated or pick from some kind of electric fields generated by what I suspect TV hanging above.

@ssg308 Its a good idea to make sure the arm and cartridge are compatible before you play with loading. If the arm can't track the cartridge properly because the mechanical resonance of the two it outside the ideal window, loading really won't help things.

Use this calculator to sort things out:

tonearm/cartridge compliance calculator

Okay. 

Have you had any luck with the suggestions from the board?

@gbmcleod 

no , you can hear static when record is not playing, and I'm in Chicago so relatively humid place 

@atmasphere

Ralph, I just want to thank you for all your input, especially around cartridge loading. There is so much wrong information floating around.

If you hear static when playing music, get some static spray. I clean my equipment - especially in the dry, winter months -  with Nordost's ECO spray, but I bet a supermarket static spray for clothes might be a decent alternative.

Winter's dry here in the DC area (and Connecticut, where I'm from,  but I don't know if you're in a dry area that causes static. Is static normal for you to experience in your home during winter months ?

@lewm 

well since I wrote the question I changed my ML for Unami Red. 

It is still new so I load it at 1000ohms and it sounds great, how ever I did not try to load it 47k yet. I let it running for about maybe 100 hours and later I'll try to lad 47k. Well now I have bigger problem, my gain is set to 67db and my quiet XP17 does generate a little hiss at volume about 70+ db, I can live with that, however I'm picking up some static noise and for now I have no idea where it comes from, not from phono stage, it seam like it happening between the cartridge and single post connectors that are plugged in to XP17. when you unplug them form phono stage you left with hiss form XP17 once you plug it back you hear static noise. Kills me!

Same here. I've had the cartridge several years and really can't complain. Its effortless with everything I throw at it. 

I have a Hana ML, which I've had for a few years and used in OL Silver and now The Encounter, loaded - as always - at 47k (well, unloaded). And it sounds fantastic. 

@karl_desch I'm hoping that Red will be acting more playable will see I'll. keep you posted Monday since I'm swapping ML for Red these weekend 

Nice!  I love my XP-22/27 combo as well for their truth telling. I bet the 12/17 combo is 95% of what I get with the fancy schmancy seperate power supply versions. 

All this being said, I'm still surprised that the Hana-Pass combo is so sensitive to loading.

@karl_desch oh my o my .... :) that thing is so precisely matched, system is truly stable and NEUTRAL! the only variable is my TT and my obsession in getting  the best sound without letting my kidneys go... I was about to use only XP 12 to drive my Threshold S550e but I'm glad I got Pass x250.8 that ting throw another dimension to the room.  So said that my system detects lies .... so if cartridge or vinyl pretend to sound good system immediately calls its BS :)  

Just wanted to make sure that they were playing together nicely.  So an XP-12/17 combo is perfect!

@karl_desch XP-12 and XP-17, I was thinking to upgrade to XP-32 if I want to run second TT trough XP-15 but that's in future for now I want to make my existing  system stabile 

I'm sure some of this is dependent on listening preferences and other system components. I have used Pass Labs phono pre's on Lyra (Atlas, Etna SL, Delos), Koetsu RSP, SoundSmith (Zephyr Star, Sussurro, Hyperion), ZYX (Yatra) and Denon 103R (Zu).  The most sensitive to loading are the SoundSmith MIs.  They loose upper frequency presence with resistive values below 500 ohms. I prefer them at 47 Kohm. The Lyra and Koetsu sound the same between 100 ohms and 47 Kohm. So I run Lyra, Koetsu and SoundSmith at 47 Kohm. 

@ssg308 What preamp are you using?

@lewm yes ssir you are correct, gain stays fixed at 67db and to clarify 47k sounds overdrived that manifests it self as a lot of bass weak mid and high non existing. 1k sounds the best and any lower resistance is a significant drop in performance. 

I think SSG is saying he hears a big difference between 47K ohms load and any value equal to or less than 1000 ohms, where 47K sounds bad to his ears. I didn’t see where he talked about gain per se. So Karl, how do your Pass phono stages sound when you load LOMC cartridges at 47K ohms? And which cartridges have you tried?

I owned the Pass XP-15 for many years and have been enjoying the XP-27 for several. I dont find the difference between 15 and the 27 to manifest through different loading.  The 27 sounds different (and a little better) at all settings.  Like Lewn, I have never heard a big difference between 100 ohm and 47 kohm loads on LOMC carts. Like ssg308 reports, big differences in character can be discerned with different gain settings.  My conclusions are that the Pass phono preamps can handle RFI generated by LOMC quite nicely.  

Hoping that ssg308 enjoys the Unami Red. 

@atmasphere I'm running VPI with 10.5 arm 

@ssg308 I have teh ML in a Technics SL1200G arm at the moment and it works fine. Plug and play with my preamp; no need to mess with loading. One of my employees has the ML in a Triplanar and it works fine in that too.

@atmasphere that is my fear that my preamp my tone arm and cartridge all together are problematic, the least I suspect would be Pass but its possible XP17 don't like something in the configuration. I was thinking about secondary turntable, i didn't yet figure out what its gonna be but RP4 or 6 sounds good to me. Do you have any expirience with ML or Red in specific tone arms ? what works the best ?

 Ok I find it weird at list, I will work with that again, how I have more reasons than ever since I got the Unami Red and I will be comparing it with the ML on the same preamp. Let me know what you think about the ML sound at the 47K load, it seam to me like distortion, overload of bass with the fuzzy bluer in low mis range frequencies I mean around 1KHz. When I drop the load on my ML down to 1KOhm all goes great also all loads 1k and below works great. Gain I have set up at 67db 

@ssg308 When the cartridge generates RFI via the process I previously outlined, it often causes the input of the phono section to make distortion. That distortion is interpreted by the ear as brightness.

If you take any LOMC cartridge and run a square wave through it, you'll see that the square wave is passed by the cartridge perfectly, even at 10KHz. Putting a load across the cartridge (in parallel) has no effect on the squareness of the squarewave. If it were really rolling off the high end in some manner you'd see rounding of the squarewave.

So we know the resistor isn't affecting the cartridge to any great degree. The phono section is another matter as previously outlined. So yes, its very possible the 'Problem might be isolated to the specific gear' you're using.

@lewm   (47K sounds bad with Hana ML, for example) that is not what I was implying, therefore I am very specific about the preamp I'm using. Problem might be isolated to the specific gear I'm using. Im curious how Unami Red will act with my preamp but I guess I'll find out soon.

I am not suggesting you should continue to beat your head against the wall in order to make the 47K option sound "good" to your ears in your system. Just enjoy what works best for you. But your result does not illustrate a principle (47K sounds bad with Hana ML, for example) that others might use as a guide in their own systems.

@lewm Ok I find it weird at list, I will work with that again, how I have more reasons than ever since I got the Unami Red and I will be comparing it with the ML on the same preamp. Let me know what you think about the ML sound at the 47K load, it seam to me like distortion, overload of bass with the fuzzy bluer in low mis range frequencies I mean around 1KHz. When I drop the load on my ML down to 1KOhm all goes great also all loads 1k and below works great. Gain I have set up at 67db 

SSG, I think we established that your experience with loading your MC at 47K ohms, namely that it sounds BAD, is so unusual as to be considered "unique".  So I would not warn others against loading at 47K ohms.  John Curl and Audible Illusions knew what they were doing.  47K ohms should work just fine. Lower R loads work fine too and are subtly different from SQ at 47K ohms, in all my 40 years of experience. Therefore it is also legit to find that you prefer a lower resistance load; many others do. Laginz, you are most assuredly not "SOL".

@laginz  well with 47K fixed load you might be SOL, I've tried to push it as hard as I can and on my pre amps Pass XP15 and XP17 ML wouldn't take more than 440 Ohm on XP15 and maximum  1K Ohm on XP17. I tried 47k but it wont take it no matter what I do.

Interested in a Hana ml. I’ve  got an Audible Illudions 3B with the John Curl designed mc stage and fixed 47,000 resistance input . AI says their tests show low output mc’s work better at 47,000, with their design. Base on this thread, I guess I’ll have to just hold my breath if I order an ml !!

it is what it is, I make it sound te way I like it so I'm not gonna debate anymore why is it like that.

This makes sense. Different designs do act differently when subjected to RFI.

@atmasphere

I have 2 different phono stages from same manufacturer and they both act different in same configuration of the rest of the gear. they producing best sound with loads between 100-333 ohm and XP17 improves sound up to 1k 

@ssg308 1000 Ohms is so high a value it can't be affecting the cartridge at audio frequencies at all. So this has to be how the preamp is reacting to RFI.

@atmasphere 

well that is exactly what I did the only difference was I started with 333 ohm than jumped to 47k and back down to 100ohm just to go back to the 1k that is where I decided  is the best setting for my setup.

@ssg308 I don't doubt you although I am a bit surprised. Others have reported Pass Labs phono sections as not needing 'loading' ('detuning' is a more accurate term) resistors. Simple decrease the load till its starts working... I'd start with 1000 Ohms and work my way down.  

in my case 47k is just not working, believe me Iv'e tried. 

I load mine at 47K and it works great.

As you decrease the load it sees, two things happen. The first is the output level decreases especially as the load value approaches that of the cartridge itself but 100 Ohms will have no effect at all in that regard.

The second of course is that the cantilever gets stiffer, less compliant, since you are causing it to do more work.

Depending on the tonearm used and how well the phono section reacts to RFI, the value a person arrives at will be different. So I would not rely on other's experiences without knowing the provenance.

what was the minimal load value that it sounded acceptable ?

Don't know in this helps, but I have the XP-17's distant ancestor, the XOno, and I listen at 1000 Ohms with the Hana ML. I've tried many settings from 50 Ohms to wide open, and 1000 was hands down the best, for me. 

paul 

OK.

I would conclude that, MC cartridges (at least in my case Hana ML) and XP15 works with loads anywhere between 100-333 ohms sounds the best,  and XP17 will work the best between 100 and 1000 ohms for optimal best sound. 

Again, you’re relatively happy with load resistance other than 47K ohms, so a mismatch between cartridge and tonearm is not high on my list.

well I have no idea why they acting like that but to me it's a new endeavor with TT and cartridges and phono stages... I guess I'll keep working on it till I'm satisfied. maybe Hana ML is not the greatest match to my tonearm ? would that make such a problem. ?

I don’t quite understand your last post, except it seems you’ve checked the cartridge and speaker wires and the two channels are NOT out of phase. Do you understand that point?

the rest of your last post eludes my grasp. The issue I focused on is why the 47K ohm setting sounds so uniquely awful. There shouldn’t be much if any difference between 500, 825, and 1000 ohms load with your cartridge and either phono stage. Which is to say they should all sound fine and not much different from 47K ohms.

@lewm 

Ok I verified sound track from cartridge to the "phone stage pre-amplifier"- (I think that is correct name of it)- all good that way.

Yes they both have similar sonic characteristics, and after conversation with Pass tech support I realized that they are designed to handle most cartridges on the market, even those hard to load. In matter of the fact they are easily can overload any cartridge.

So what I understood was, just because unit can do it it does not mean that it will work with cartridge+tone arm+ connecting single post wire, exactly same way.

They are design to be versatile so it means you need to do your home work with setting it up. Sure you can go by suggestion of cartridge maker or owner manual but last decision how it sounds is ultimately owners choice. There are people who are happy with 66db at 100Ohm load, some are like me and looking for best possible performance. 

1k is good 500 ohm not bad lets see how 825 ohm sounds like and I'll get back to you.

Also check the leads at the cartridge as Atmasphere suggested and even though you say you’re relatively happy when load R is 1K or less. So this is a real shot in the dark. Color code as follows:

red= right channel hot

green = R channel ground

white = left channel hot

blue = L channel ground

Also check that your speakers and any subwoofers are wired in phase with each other, meaning left vs right.

Until now, you never revealed that both the XP 15 and the XP 17 had this sonic character when you set the load to 47K ohms. Since you used the term “amps”, is it correct to assume that you mean both phono stages? If so, I am stumped, because it is highly unlikely that both phono stages were miswired at the factory. So by all means call Pass labs. I would be interested in what they say.

@lewm 

If you think it is possible I will call to Pass labs and have conversation with the tech.

Both amps seam to act the same way when comes to the 47k load.

Anyhow I'll report back what Pass has to say about it.