Pass XP-17 and Hana ML loading question

@karl_desch XP-12 and XP-17, I was thinking to upgrade to XP-32 if I want to run second TT trough XP-15 but that's in future for now I want to make my existing  system stabile 

@testpilot  I don't think I have 100 h on the unit yet so yes breaking period is understandable 

@lewm 

Yes, circuits are diametrically different that is a fact, but loading the cartridge should have same effect on cartridge performance , sound of it at least on the dynamic level should be similar to the loads on 15 at least in the characteristic of the sound. what I'm getting on same load is half of bottom end. Does it make sense to you ??

Ok guys, so far all I can tell you is that you weren’t squeezing top of the performance from the XP17 if You have it set at 66db of gain and 100ohms load.

I have run my Hana ML through that setting it seam like sound was super blunt.  Then I tried 76db of gain and 350 ohm load. It was good but slight oversteer on sopranos. So I switched it back to 66db but kept 350 ohm load, it was great sounding but bass was weak and not distinctive, so I keep 66db of gain and loaded with 1Kohm ! Now things are getting serious :-) next step will be 47Kohm ! And I’ll keep you posted ! I wish I could try Hana Unami Red to see what that thing can do! Well one day I’ll get it and let you know how it goes. I’ll let you know when I squeeze last drop and tell you how much I improved sound. Still thinking  about Unami Red or Blue any comments from owners ?

@lewm Regarding loading resistance please read my comment above, my experience shows me it does make difference. 

well when I load Hanna ML on XP15 with 47k the bass was amazing, but top end and half of mid was nonexistence. so naturally I will load 17 with 47k and see what will happen.

@lewm  I understand your doubt  but all im saying thats the facts that I can hear.

Now I've tried also setting  of XP15  at 1K ohm and it was better than 47K so I consequently started to drop the resistance first to 850 it got better than 500 better yet than 430 it got better yet so I continue down to 350 better 333 better 250 no difference 200 worse than 250 so I start adding on and with that type of yoyo test I saddled for 333 ohms load that sounded the best to my ear.

I don't have much experience with phono stages 35 years ago I had integrated amp that had dedicated phono input.  So far I tested Schiid Mani and Mani2 they are ok sounding but noise level was outrageous at 66db gain. Next I got to deal with XP15 and now with XP17. All I know about it is what I'm learning by dealing with the issue now.

@atmasphere Wow you changed my perspective how I look at the problem ! great let me read it again so it can sync in  and I'll try to experiment a bit and try to load it with different resistance and see how it effect it. BTW I  tried 47k and it sounds terrible.

No, unfortunately I own only one MC cartridge Hana ML , my other cartridge is MM Ortofon 2M Black   

And what I meant by saying "terrible" was, sporrans and mid got clipped about 30%  while bass got big but hollow and muddy no definition at al just slams of senseless sonic boom,  and on top of that when record ended and I raised arm I heard harmonics between speakers and cartridge. I went bac to 1k setting and now over 4th weekend I'll experiment with all settings I have between 500 ohms and 1k to see if there is anything else I can squeeze out of the system.

@atmasphere 

I can make sure it is connected correctly, How would I know what color on cartridge is corresponding with +post  and what color is what channel ? where I can find diagram ?

@lewm 

If you think it is possible I will call to Pass labs and have conversation with the tech.

Both amps seam to act the same way when comes to the 47k load.

Anyhow I'll report back what Pass has to say about it. 

well I have no idea why they acting like that but to me it's a new endeavor with TT and cartridges and phono stages... I guess I'll keep working on it till I'm satisfied. maybe Hana ML is not the greatest match to my tonearm ? would that make such a problem. ?

@lewm 

Ok I verified sound track from cartridge to the "phone stage pre-amplifier"- (I think that is correct name of it)- all good that way.

Yes they both have similar sonic characteristics, and after conversation with Pass tech support I realized that they are designed to handle most cartridges on the market, even those hard to load. In matter of the fact they are easily can overload any cartridge.

So what I understood was, just because unit can do it it does not mean that it will work with cartridge+tone arm+ connecting single post wire, exactly same way.

They are design to be versatile so it means you need to do your home work with setting it up. Sure you can go by suggestion of cartridge maker or owner manual but last decision how it sounds is ultimately owners choice. There are people who are happy with 66db at 100Ohm load, some are like me and looking for best possible performance. 

1k is good 500 ohm not bad lets see how 825 ohm sounds like and I'll get back to you.

I would conclude that, MC cartridges (at least in my case Hana ML) and XP15 works with loads anywhere between 100-333 ohms sounds the best,  and XP17 will work the best between 100 and 1000 ohms for optimal best sound. 

what was the minimal load value that it sounded acceptable ?

in my case 47k is just not working, believe me Iv'e tried. 

@atmasphere 

well that is exactly what I did the only difference was I started with 333 ohm than jumped to 47k and back down to 100ohm just to go back to the 1k that is where I decided  is the best setting for my setup.

@atmasphere

I have 2 different phono stages from same manufacturer and they both act different in same configuration of the rest of the gear. they producing best sound with loads between 100-333 ohm and XP17 improves sound up to 1k 

it is what it is, I make it sound te way I like it so I'm not gonna debate anymore why is it like that.

@laginz  well with 47K fixed load you might be SOL, I've tried to push it as hard as I can and on my pre amps Pass XP15 and XP17 ML wouldn't take more than 440 Ohm on XP15 and maximum  1K Ohm on XP17. I tried 47k but it wont take it no matter what I do.

@lewm   (47K sounds bad with Hana ML, for example) that is not what I was implying, therefore I am very specific about the preamp I'm using. Problem might be isolated to the specific gear I'm using. Im curious how Unami Red will act with my preamp but I guess I'll find out soon.

@lewm Ok I find it weird at list, I will work with that again, how I have more reasons than ever since I got the Unami Red and I will be comparing it with the ML on the same preamp. Let me know what you think about the ML sound at the 47K load, it seam to me like distortion, overload of bass with the fuzzy bluer in low mis range frequencies I mean around 1KHz. When I drop the load on my ML down to 1KOhm all goes great also all loads 1k and below works great. Gain I have set up at 67db 

@atmasphere that is my fear that my preamp my tone arm and cartridge all together are problematic, the least I suspect would be Pass but its possible XP17 don't like something in the configuration. I was thinking about secondary turntable, i didn't yet figure out what its gonna be but RP4 or 6 sounds good to me. Do you have any expirience with ML or Red in specific tone arms ? what works the best ?

@atmasphere I'm running VPI with 10.5 arm 

@lewm yes ssir you are correct, gain stays fixed at 67db and to clarify 47k sounds overdrived that manifests it self as a lot of bass weak mid and high non existing. 1k sounds the best and any lower resistance is a significant drop in performance. 

@karl_desch oh my o my .... :) that thing is so precisely matched, system is truly stable and NEUTRAL! the only variable is my TT and my obsession in getting  the best sound without letting my kidneys go... I was about to use only XP 12 to drive my Threshold S550e but I'm glad I got Pass x250.8 that ting throw another dimension to the room.  So said that my system detects lies .... so if cartridge or vinyl pretend to sound good system immediately calls its BS :)  

@karl_desch I'm hoping that Red will be acting more playable will see I'll. keep you posted Monday since I'm swapping ML for Red these weekend 

@lewm 

well since I wrote the question I changed my ML for Unami Red. 

It is still new so I load it at 1000ohms and it sounds great, how ever I did not try to load it 47k yet. I let it running for about maybe 100 hours and later I'll try to lad 47k. Well now I have bigger problem, my gain is set to 67db and my quiet XP17 does generate a little hiss at volume about 70+ db, I can live with that, however I'm picking up some static noise and for now I have no idea where it comes from, not from phono stage, it seam like it happening between the cartridge and single post connectors that are plugged in to XP17. when you unplug them form phono stage you left with hiss form XP17 once you plug it back you hear static noise. Kills me!

@gbmcleod 

no , you can hear static when record is not playing, and I'm in Chicago so relatively humid place 

@atmasphere 

It looks like correlation arm/cartridge is spot on, static is generated somewhere between cartridge and Preamp I can't figure out if its is inner generated or pick from some kind of electric fields generated by what I suspect TV hanging above.

Normal line noise sounds like low background noise that you can hear when switching from let say CD input to Phono, and I get that one but  when table is connected to preamp normal line noice is covered with slightly higher pitch static like sound.