It has been shown that some members here are notoriously bereft of anything new to contribute to a debate other than the same old, squawking points.
All the best,
Nonoise
All the best,
Nonoise
Pass Labs and Fuses
I continue to enjoy my Pass Labs Int-60 amplifier with my horn based system. My listening area has been intensively treated for acoustic - speaker interaction and it is always a joy for me to listen to a Dialed In system.
For my latest listening experiment I decided to evaluate the sonic differences using three fuses in the Pass amplifier. A brand new Bussman fuse, a Synergistic Research Blue fuse and a Synergistic Research Orange fuse. I keep this amp on 24/7 as suggested by the manufacturer. The Blue fuse has over a 1000 hours on it and the Orange had a 160 hours (continuous playing time) on it before any listening evaluations. The Bussman was listened to for the first time immediately out of the box.
The Bussman fuse did a fine job. But going from the Blue fuse which I had been using to the Bussman, there was a definite change. With the Bussman the sound was now more two dimensional. Instruments were not as full bodied. The depth of the soundstage was compressed front to back. I was more aware that I was listening to a recording versus being in the room with the musicians. The music was less emotionally involving. I did for completeness sake reverse the direction of the new Bussman fuse several times. It did consistently sound better installed in one direction, not huge but it is there.
Comparing the Synergistic Blue Fuse to Orange Fuse was similar to my past tube rolling experiences with my 300B tubed amplifier (but cheaper to carry out). Different tubes change the sound and these different fuses change the sound. Both of these fuses brought out more of the music that the Pass Labs amp was playing when compared to the Bussman fuse. Before any serious listening was undertaken, the fuses were evaluated for best sounding direction - and they both were directional.
The Orange fuse really is exceptional in it’s ability to let me enjoy the music and who is playing what. The detail of Willie Nelson’s nylon strings on his guitar had much better dynamics and richer texture than I have previously heard using the Blue fuse. His Stardust album continues to impress me.
When listening to music that has more musicians playing, such as on Sierra Una Noche, I can more easily distinguish each instrument and it’s contribution to the musical whole. Also in this live recording that uses only two mics, I get a better feel of each musician’s distance from the microphones and that they move toward and away from the microphones while playing. These factors allow me to forget I am listening to a recording of an event. With the Orange fuse, I feel I am at the event as it is playing.
This fuse experiment was fun to do and educational.
Feel free to call.
David Pritchard
575-644-1462
For my latest listening experiment I decided to evaluate the sonic differences using three fuses in the Pass amplifier. A brand new Bussman fuse, a Synergistic Research Blue fuse and a Synergistic Research Orange fuse. I keep this amp on 24/7 as suggested by the manufacturer. The Blue fuse has over a 1000 hours on it and the Orange had a 160 hours (continuous playing time) on it before any listening evaluations. The Bussman was listened to for the first time immediately out of the box.
The Bussman fuse did a fine job. But going from the Blue fuse which I had been using to the Bussman, there was a definite change. With the Bussman the sound was now more two dimensional. Instruments were not as full bodied. The depth of the soundstage was compressed front to back. I was more aware that I was listening to a recording versus being in the room with the musicians. The music was less emotionally involving. I did for completeness sake reverse the direction of the new Bussman fuse several times. It did consistently sound better installed in one direction, not huge but it is there.
Comparing the Synergistic Blue Fuse to Orange Fuse was similar to my past tube rolling experiences with my 300B tubed amplifier (but cheaper to carry out). Different tubes change the sound and these different fuses change the sound. Both of these fuses brought out more of the music that the Pass Labs amp was playing when compared to the Bussman fuse. Before any serious listening was undertaken, the fuses were evaluated for best sounding direction - and they both were directional.
The Orange fuse really is exceptional in it’s ability to let me enjoy the music and who is playing what. The detail of Willie Nelson’s nylon strings on his guitar had much better dynamics and richer texture than I have previously heard using the Blue fuse. His Stardust album continues to impress me.
When listening to music that has more musicians playing, such as on Sierra Una Noche, I can more easily distinguish each instrument and it’s contribution to the musical whole. Also in this live recording that uses only two mics, I get a better feel of each musician’s distance from the microphones and that they move toward and away from the microphones while playing. These factors allow me to forget I am listening to a recording of an event. With the Orange fuse, I feel I am at the event as it is playing.
This fuse experiment was fun to do and educational.
Feel free to call.
David Pritchard
575-644-1462
208 responses Add your response
That this site is the only place where so much time and effort is put into discussing how fuses sound (mostly by the same handful of people) says a lot. It’s a wonder the rest of the world is able to function in lieu of expensive fuses. There are places in the world where people do not even consider having a pet because of poverty. There is also this place where people are encouraged to drop $100s of dollars on fuses based on a handful of opinions and total hearsay. Just saying.... |
As the original poster I do think it is important to remember I few points that I wrote about the topic. This was an experiment to see if there were sonic differences using three different fuses - each installed and removed multiple times and in both directions. A well know respected amplifier brand ( Pass Labs) was used that has a reputation for having a excellent power supply. This was done on purpose to discount the experiment being devalued due to a "poor power supply being a factor in the observed results". No other changes were made to the system for the past five months. So there are no other known major variables going on. The humidity (measured), and room temperature (measured) were kept constant. The time of day for listening was kept constant - 8:00 to 10;00 at night. The Pass Labs amplifier was also chosen as it can and was left on 24/7 (except when it was turned off to change fuses). Since this amplifier has a screw in fuse holder, fuses can be easily and safely changed. This was a serious attempt on my part to do a meaningful evaluation of three fuses and their sonic effect on a well respected amplifier. It is the first of several experiments I have planned pertaining to this subject. It was earlier pointed out earlier that testing - evaluating fuses is " by necessity a time consuming affair". That is absolutely correct and one reason I chose to report this experiment. It is a lot of work. It takes a lot of time. My observations indicating a change in sound have not and will not ever have a percentage number assigned to them. I have found it very helpful to watch all the You Tube videos posted featuring interviews with Nelson Pass and his co-designer Wayne Colburn of Pass Labs Inc. I will not attempt to condense what their approach to perfecting a design is but it involves both measurements and a lot of listening. Nelson also discusses the subjective and objective and their place in developing audio products. Wayne Colburn of Pass Labs has been most gracious in his time and expertise to directly answer questions I had about Pass Labs's use of fuses and circuit breakers. David Pritchard |
Wolf, not even the manufacturers of the >$150 (50cent) fuses are backing any of the claims the magic circle fuser club are saying. If you look at any "legit" audio product discussed, the manufacturer is always only too happy to give input when anything is debated, but not with the voodoo fuse ones, no way. Cheers George |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
They can dish it out but can’t take it. They can insult and degrade, mock and ridicule. But, under no reason, is one allowed to reciprocate. Unless it’s on the same level, then it’s okay. But if it’s of a better, or dare I say, more adult perspective, then they run to the mods and cry, whine and pout. All the best, Nonoise |
Wow, so George is the new sheriff in town? Thanks for admitting it. Like I said, you can dish it out but not take it. That, and you're now oh so PC, which from what I can tell, is not very much in vogue around here nowadays. If there's going to be a purity test to post here, you'll have to abide to the rules as well, and by that measure, lots of your posts should have been deleted for a some time now. All the best, Nonoise |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
Not that it really matters as a certain down under participant is likely laughing himself to sleep right now as he has achieved exactly what he set out to. A real shame that some cannot see that...... Sorry David, we fell prey to evil machinations and have messed up your once most excellent thread. Hopefully it will revive, after all it can only go uphill from here....... |
Then do your job correctly please AudiogonWow talk about suicidal, with statements like that, keep it up boys, you’ll dig your own graves,without me handing you the shovels. Where are your >$150 fuse manufacturers now to back up your fuser claims, now that you really need them, like ships passing in the night, nowhere to be seen. |
George You truly do not get it but thats fine, everybody is entitled to their own opinion , not that you appear to have worked that out yet. So as a result of all the high praise reported here I decided to order 2 SR Orange fuses and see if I can hear a difference between them and the SR Blue fuses currently in use right now. Hold that thought. |
This is a shill fest, that's all there is to it. If you fuser's really believe what you preach, then get the manufacturers to come on here and debate your claims. Like I said any audio equipment manufacture, with "legit products" would be busting down the door with backup for their product that's being debated, but not the fuse ones, they are like ships passing in the night, not to be seen. |
Who are you to demand that we bring in a manufacturer to defend it's products? Let me answer that for you: You're no one of any merit to answer to. This is a conversation of like minded folk sharing experiences and not a debate. Lot's of legit manufacturers don't comment here due to the very presence of people like yourself. There are online reviewers that stay away from places like this and yet, are still deluged with tripe and bile from naysayers who have nothing better to do than harass, apparently for the sheer joy of it. One even got fed up with the ridiculous onslaught of objectivists who collectively dog piled on him so he closed down his website for peace of mind, and he had some great reviews and intelligent commentary to go with it. How can you honestly post about something you have no experience in? The totality of your experience is in derailing threads like this that you don't like or approve of. Like the moderator said, stay on the topic the OP initiated, and get some help. All the best, Nonoise |
"It has been shown that witnesses to staged crime scenes are notoriously unreliable. And the validity of subjective reviews of aural phenomena are equally suspect!" Nice analogy except the witnesses to the staged crime were at least "there". In the case of most premium fuse deniers, they are not (other than wolf) even trying them. IME premium fuses make a very audible difference. If you don't hear an improvement, so be it, at least you actually tried it. You did try it, right? In regard to safety, with my components there is more chance of getting a static poke when changing a fuse than getting actually shocked during the process. |
I do hope Audiogon will remove posts that resort to disrespect to other members. But I seriously hope that all posts remain on this thread that are written in a respectful manner , regardless of their agreeing or disagreeing with my observations . I see no reason to allow mob rule to shout down serious discussion about any audio topic. I also welcome suggestions in improving my test approach. Tomorrow - Friday, the Pass Lab SIT-3 amplifier is scheduled to be delivered. Pass only made 250 of these units because the SIT transistor used is long out of production. Nelson is the sole designer of this unit and the F-7. I look forward to comparing this unique type of topology amp to the First Watt-7, and then to investigate any differences fuses and fuse direction makes. David Pritchard |
IME premium fuses make a very audible difference. If you don't hear an improvement, so be it, at least you actually tried it. You did try it, right?Unfortunately Boxer, Georgie is on record as categoricaly stating he has NEVER tried a boutique fuse and NEVER will. Now that is just a perfect example of a closed mindset. I truly do not see what he has to gain by even posting on these types of threads as he has no interest in the betterment of audio enjoyment by said tweaks. It grieves me to see such discord between fellow audio enthusiasts tbh. |
NEVER tried a boutique fuse and NEVER will. For your YELLING posting info, no I’ve never tried it, and no need to, but at my friends place for a day session with three others where he tried an SR Blue 3.15A fuse in his Gryphon Diablo 300, the fuse was taken in and out 3 x, even turned around once, not one out of the 5 of us could tell what was in compared to the original 3A, the owner "thought" he detected something on one of the occasions, but couldn’t be sure. |
I am glad to read georgehihi6 post. I hope all who have experimented with listening to a same piece of equipment with different fuses will report their findings. I especially hope Pass Labs amplifier users will participate. georgehifi6 - do you know what brand fuse Gryphon uses? I think that is also interesting. Pass Labs uses Schurter Brand. Wayne Colburn (Pass Labs) did tell me that their amps with circuit breakers have more circuitry in the signal path than those with fuse protection. I think amplifier design and implementation of a design is a fascinating area of the audio hobby. Some tube amplifier builders do keep track of wire directionally such as the builder of the SET amp- Serious Audio. In these low part count amps, perhaps wire direction can be more easily heard? I have read where SET amp builders will audition many brands of each part used before the product goes to market. David Pritchard |
georgehifi6 - do you know what brand fuse Gryphon uses? I think that is also interesting. Pass Labs uses Schurter Brand.Yes I did ask to look at it, it looked just like a 50c Bussmann fuse like this, and my mistake they were 6.3A not 3A https://ibb.co/QnZVtn5 |
Props Dave for all the extra work you put in on this. If your ears are half as good as I think they are then you knew in no time flat. I mean in took me all of 30 seconds to know a) its better and b) its backwards. Pretty amazing when something is so good you can tell its backwards within a minute and on first listen. And I'm talking Blue, which by all accounts is the biggest generational improvement yet. So you had to have had about as much uncertainty as me, which is zero, nada, zip, none, and yet you dutifully went back and forth anyway. For all the appreciation it got you. Oh well. At least it hasn't gone completely unnoticed. |
George Just as an FYI. If my post had been all caps then yes that would have been a "yelling" post. But when just one word is in caps it signifies a highlight of that one word ( or more than one in this instance) within said post. Just wanted to clear that up as I was most definitely not yelling at you George, life is too short. However I am interested in the Gryphon story as I do not think I have read that from you before and it is actually very relevant and thank you for that. As I have clearly stated many times, if people have tried something and found no difference or change or even worse it made matters worse then that is what it is. A result that they perceived they heard or not heard whichever the case may be. So both yourself and Wolf have tried or been party to trying of aftermarket fuses and did not consider them a worthwhile sonic benefit. That is perfectly fine and a report of what you discerned. It does not of course mean they are a waste of money and do not work period, just they did not work for you guys at that time in those systems. And you cannot say any more than that. |
rbyington: I did talk directly to Pass Labs and they suggest to keep my amp on 24/7. Paul McGowan ( CEO of PS Audio) also recommends to keep the PS Audio amps on 24/7. Some reasons to keep always on are less stress on the system (from the initial current inrush) and thermal stabilization. David Pritchard |
The difference one can hear with a fuse depends on the amp and the system it’s part of. With my Marantz Reference PM15S2b, the result in a change of fuse was immediate and distinct. Even directionally. With my Kinki EX-M1, it was much subtler, but still there. In fact, after trying out 3 different fuses with the Kinki, I went back to the standard, ceramic fuse as the amp appeared to be designed with that fuse being used, which gave the best results. Even Alvin (the exporter for Kinki) said as much when I asked him about it. I don’t have the email anymore but the one he sent me had the brand and a picture of the fuse and it cost a little over $2. The fuses I tried were of a mid priced nature (none exceeding $60) so I have no idea how an SR fuse would fare in the same situation. You’ll never know until you try. All the best, Nonoise |
Wonderful post. You do not know for sure until you try. But if you are not interested in the possibility, do not try. Concerning leaving amplifiers on, you will have a lower electric bill if you turn them off. Class A amps use a lot of electricity whether they have a signal or no signal. Mark at Reno Hi Fi certainly knows Pass Labs products. I would follow his advice. Indeed the Pass Labs SIT-3 amplifier (being delivered today) was purchased from him. It will use much less electricity than some of the other amps and so will always be left on. Except when turned off to evaluate different fuses and their direction. David Pritchard |
So both yourself and Wolf have tried or been party to trying of aftermarket fuses and did not consider them a worthwhile sonic benefit.Not just in sonics, but as a tweak with absolutely no Electronic Engineering foundation. And where even the manufacturers won't come on these forums and back the claims here. Like I said before, there is not ONE manufacturer that would not hesitate in backing his product in debates like this with the claims made here, that's because AC mains fuses that have these claims are all just snake oil voodoo. |