Just listen to the paradigm persona 7h.the monitor audio Platinum 300 generation two are so much more three-dimensional and open it's not even funny the paradigm sounded very two-dimensional compared to the monitors that MPD Tweeter puts the beryllium Tweeter to shame.
Great stuff going back and forth here! So I will add my two cents. I am a retired Audio consultant and an Audiophile and I believe that what everyone has to say is of value to us all. However when setting up an Audiophile system everything that goes in the system is vital to the sound of the system, for example I use a glass toss link optical cable from my Lexicon RT 20 to my Lexicon MC12 because after all was said and done this is what sounds best to me others may think that a digital intercont is the better option for there system. Speaker connections from the amplifier is a big issue for sound quality and ofcourse there is the environment acoustics and after setting up thousands of systems I can say with confidence that good equipment sounds good in rooms with good acoustics as this is a huge factor in sound quality. In my opinion all of you are right and it really depends on what you invested into your equipment and connections of the equipment and the room acoustics all of this is a factor in the sound quality. Everyone has their own taste and all room acoustics are different so there is no absolute when you say that KEF or monitor audio or paradigm or focal audio is the absolute best because in my opinion their is many ways to tune your system to find the right balance that hits you between your ears in just right way that you believe it's the best to your taste and I truly believe that all of you are right in your opinions but taste counts for a lot along with all of the above.
I wanted to add this to my comments, I have 30 years experience as an audio consultant however my experience is not limited to selling HIFI audio equipment. I am an audio equipment installer and I have designed sound rooms and installed switching equipment in many sound rooms in the NYC metro area and around the nation and I want you all to know that I speak with more experience than most of you out there. I will sum it up for you. For great sound quality you must buy great equipment ! You need to audition many different types and brands of connections to and from your equipment, IE you can sum up the quality of the sound by the connections you chose to connect everything together and by designing a good a acoustical room with great acoustics. So keep this in your mind before you belittle your fellow AUDIOPHILES here because they may have paid more attention then you did to the sum totals that make for a wonderful listening experience then you did or have the experience to do on your own. These guys that are professional audio retailers probably know what they are doing and have the experience and are a lot more knowledgeable about the quality of the connections then you are because like me have listened to thousands of different types of connections then you have because this is what we do to feed our families and keep the roofs over our heads. The button line is and I believe always will be room acoustics, equipment quality and I have discovered over many years that you can sum up the quality of the sound by the connections you made and this also includes speaker cable, interconnect cables optical links power cords and power and conditioner's are the sum total of the products sound quality. I would love to hear from you! Thanks for reading my post !
Hi Ricred1 I believe we are kind of on the same page but because of the differences between the equipment owned it becomes a question of trial and error in regards to the connections and room acoustics and as I stated in my post it is definitely dependent on room acoustics and what works best in a particular room based on the acoustics of the room and the equipment. The back and forth has great value because this is how most people learn from one another. I respect your opinion and I think you should respect others opinions. Regards!
Ok: I hope didn’t push your clients in to buying needlessly expensive audiophile cables. ;-)
BTW, I very much appreciate the existence of high end audio stores and I enjoy talking to salesmen (well, some of them). I really appreciate a good high end audio dealer who doesn’t try to push his "experience" on me. Like many here, I have decades and decades of experience with audio systems and know what I’m looking for, and have usually done all the research I need.
But in terms of actual useful advice, it’s very rare for a salesman "experienced" or not, saying anything of much worth for my purposes. They tend to either tell me things I already know, or tell me nonsense.
This reflected my experience with the personas also. The three dimensional imaging was almost non existent. There is a dealer on here who pushes them so I am sure he will jump in at some point.
@djverne The 3d imaging is something I look for. I thought the Persona 3F and 5F was rather good at that. I am interested to hear what you have as tops in the 3rd imaging category. Something for me to check out.
When I auditioned the Personas they had truly excellent imaging. And also portrayed a nice life-sized sound. (Even though I did not end up caring for the tonal quality of the speaker).
Check out the monitor audio Platinum 200 and 300 generation 2.they're way more three-dimensional than paradigm also the imaging and depth is better the layering between the instruments you can hear that are in space the cymbal sound more brassy. The voice more human and all the instruments sound more real and natural. The paradigms have a very forward top end. The cymbals have a metallic sound instead of a brassy sound the voice sounds more hard piano doesn't have that woodiness and the same with the string bass and violins you can't hear that woodiness.
This is my final word on this subject. Just look up the comments that jworth made on page 1 of this blog. He owns both the monitor audio Platinum 300 generation 2 and paradigm, and he said the Platinum 300 were better in width depth tighter bass and he said unfortunately I paid a lot of money for the paradigms so there's your answer on which is the better speaker and if you put them side-by-side audio Troy the same thing will happen but unfortunately you're too stupid to admit the truth because you sell paradigm.
Experience will weed out the bs, the fact is every ‘affordable hi end’ loudspeaker I’ve tried has been sensitive to every other piece in the chain with the room being the most influential following the amp/pre amp and on, then when the systems finally dialed in your buddy with dissimilar priorities comes in, listens a bit and politely says “ not bad”. Maybe you actually did get lucky and find a pair of plug and play speakers for your room. I’ll bet you the very pair you’re listening to you wouldn’t even recognize them if blindfolded and listened to in another venue.
Steve59: Absolutely perfect. So true about not even being able to recognize the speaker. Unless you get to sit and play with a speaker in multiple rooms, for a quite some time, no one should really judge any speaker.
Because of this, dealers can sometimes have the upper hand because they get to play with so much. But they have to actually be real enthusiastic audiophiles and not just people trying to sell a product. Then you have to worry about them trying to sell a certain brand that they carry of course — but if anyone finds a dealer that is open and honest and looking out for their best interest, you have a gold mine of info.
You can't expect the same gear for the one gentleman who owned Personas and then switched to Monitors to work equally well for both loudspeakers.
This is especially true with Home Theater gear which tends to not sound anywhere as good for Music then Home Theater, which would make the Personas most likely sound way too sharp.
Unless that person was using a really good Home Theater amp, voice for music the sound could be horrible.
The Personas are a brighter loudspeaker vs the Monitors which are a duller loudspeaker. If you look at both reviews you will see that Monitors AMT is rolled off in the top vs the Personas which has a rise in the top end.
Therefore if you used brighter electronics on the Monitors to help bring out the top end you would sizzle your ears with the Personas.
The same way that the Personas benefit from warmer electronics and cabling, therefore the warmer matching components that would work with the Personas would make the Monitors totally rolled off and uninspiring.
This is where pronouncements about brand X being better than brand y fall down, you are demoing a system, the same way that a Ferrari engine transplanted into a Toyota doesn't make the Toyota a Ferrari.
Monitor audio makes a fine loudspeaker so does Paradigm, which you prefer is up to you.
There will always be fans of any particular product the smart guy or gal recognizes their own biases but comes at audio with an open mind and as we mentioned previously just because you hear product X at a dealer doesn't mean that it is setup correctly or with the right gear.
Go listen to the product at many different dealers or ask the dealer to swap a component and or components and see what changes.
As we recanted on another post just changing one board on the dac in a $150k Persona setup made that same system sound like an entirely different one, as all parts of the system must work together in unison.
You can have the best speakers, electronics and cabling and the wrong source can torpedo the entire system.
That's the difference between monitor audio and n paradigm and monitor audio isn't dull to say the least but monitor audio works well with most gear unfortunately the paradigm doesn't that's why I believe the monitor on you is a better speaker cuz it will work extremely well with 95% of the gear out there paradigm won't. And as for gear I told you that I have the simaudio pawa which is regarded as one of the top 5 amps and preamps in the world still even though it's been discontinued. So if paradigm doesn't work with that doesn't say much doesn't because the monitors work extremely well and also pass labs which is again extremely good gear and since I heard the monitor platinum's on pass labs and the paradigm on pass labs and the monitor was far superior what can I say and Jworth tried them both on the same gear he put the monitors into his two-channel system where he had the paradigm so on the same gear the monitor was much better so that kind of shoots your theory down doesn't it?and if you think the monitor sounds dull you should get your hearing checked cuz obviously you like bright forward sound and that's not natural. And if you read the review by Robert Deutsch from stereophile he said that the monitor 200 and 300 were the most lifelike speakers he's heard and that's why he chose the 300 as his new reference.
Another point, just because a reviewer selects a loudspeaker doesn't mean that that loudspeaker is better or worse than anything else.
There a number of factors which determine why a reviewer selects a set of loudspeakers.
The first is of course sound, the second is looks, the third is how compatible is his gear and the synergy which may have favored the Monitors
The last part is the sneaky one, many companies give reviewers ridiculous deals to purchase gear rather than having to send it back.
We have heard the Monitors at Axpona and do believe CAP and came away less than thrilled at each demo of the Monitors. Where they bad no they were not, they sounded decent just not amazing, we also heard Magico and didn't like them either.
We could easily get the line, the point is you have to first be interested enough to want to bring in a line, and again after hearing them on several occasions they never sounded good enough to warrant bringing in a pair to test.
Again at a show you can''t always get the best demo, however, you can get a good idea of how a product may perform.
At the last Axpona show the winners that we thought best sound were Wilson, Golden Ear, Vimberg, we thought the Persona 3F demo was good but disagreed with the choice of cabling and server which would have made them sound even better, the demo with the Persona 3F on a $4,500.00 Anthem integrated amp was not perfect the Persona 3F sounded absolutely amazing for a $10k speaker. gigantic soundstage, the speakers totally disappeared, and the bass was very deep and tight and the improvement with a $6,500.00 sub was somewhat anti-climatic as the 3F has such impressive bass in that demo.
Again a tad bright, which is why we recommend an Innuous sever over the Aurender server, we play them with PCM transcoded to DSD and use warmer cables which add some tone color as the Anthem STR integrated isn't' a particularly warm amplifier.
Urbie you don't sound like a regular consumer you seem to have an axe to grind with Paradigm and an agenda to promote Monitor Audio.
We would be more than happy to bring in the line just have not found a reason to do so.
Actually audio Troy I don't have any axe to grind at all I just go by what I hear. And here's a more telling response. I just talked to a dealer here in Vancouver ayreborne audio video who sells both the paradigm persona and the monitor audio Platinum and I asked him point-blank monitor audio platinum or paradigm persona and he said without even hesitation monitor audio Platinum and then I asked him do you find the paradigm persona bright and forward in the top-end and he said yes and he also said that the monitor are more natural sounding. So there you go that's from a dealer of both. So anybody that has any ears that are tuned to the way instrument sound in real life and the voice sounds in real life will never pick paradigm because they are bright and forward and edgy sounding and anybody that can't hear that I guess their hearing is not so good.
That's because if you brought in the Platinum line you wouldn't be selling too many paradigm because they are that much better the soundstage is wider deeper the air and space between the instruments is better just like jworth said when he compared both of them on his system. And since I could afford $15,000 speakers I can afford just about pretty much anything but why would I spend $25,000 on a pair of 7fs when the 15000 and $18,000 Platinum 200 and 300 are much better?I will put my $60,000 Canadian system up against $200,000 and I guarantee you it'll beat it because I put it together with my ears not just my pocketbook.
It doesn’t make sense that a speaker works well with 95% of all electronics. There are too many variables to make that true. No way that a speaker with a First Watt amp will sound the same as one with a Audio Research 160M. Yes an extreme example but speakers have sonic and electronic characteristics as do amplifiers.
And Robert Deutsch had the Wilson's in there before he brought in the Platinum 300 lls. And he said the Platinum were better than the Wilson. I've listened to Wilson focal sonus Faber here in Vancouver. Didn't think too much of the Wilson or focal, but I really love the Sonus Faber,very natural sounding except the soundstage was not as wide and deep as the Platinum. I don't understand how you don't get that monitor audio Platinum are world-class speakers, they beat Wilson,Magico,Raidho and many other high-end companies that are charging ridiculous amounts of money for a pair of speakers and their driver technology is way ahead of many many companies. Unlike many other companies that spend a ton of money on marketing they have decided to put that money into research and development that's why monitor audios name is not that well known in North America but yet they are the number one selling speaker in great Britain. I have listened to the monitor audio 500 here in Vancouver and I can tell you without a doubt that it will leave the paradigm 9h and many other higher price speakers in the dust it's that much better and it only cost thirty eight thousand as opposed to the paradigm which is 35 and nowhere near as well built.
First point Deutsh had Sabrinas which are okay at best.
Did you not get the point we could be Monitor audio dealers in about five seconds if we wanted the line.
Just because a Vancouver dealer likes Monitor audio over the Paradigms may mean that that dealer finds Monitor easier to sell did you ask him why he hasnt dropped Paradigm? Could it be that some of his clients prefer Paradigm?
Also Urbie where are you getting your facts from there is no way Monitior audio is outselling B&W in Britan.
Again Urbie I personally owned Monitor Audio Studio 20s in the early 2000s.
Monitor audio is very well known in the States, Paradigm spent Millions of dollars in R&D to develop the Persona line.
Again you smear Paradigm to praise Monitor wonder why?
For the record we dont think the Personas are better than any other speaker we like many brands.
You also miss the genius of the 9H which is a room tunable loudspeaker that can work in nearly any sized room pitty you cant say the same thing with the Pl 500s.
Big deal so they'll be bright and hard sounding in any room so what the five hundreds of still a way better sounding speaker better bass better imaging better depth better three-dimensionality just better everything and I'm not smearing paradigm I'm just stating a fact the monitor audio is a much better sounding speaker. And I know this dealer personally and he wouldn't lie. So don't go smearing a dealer that you know nothing about. And like I said I'll put my system up against anything you got in your store and I guarantee you mine will leave yours way far in the dust.
No hypocrisy at all, we never said that you shouldn't judge a speaker at a show, we go to shows all the time and everyone judges at a show. We have frequently said that setups at a show may or may not be optimum at a show based on what is being setup with the product in question.
Also in most cases we hear products at shows as well as other dealerships.
In the case of the Monitors they were being show with Luxman gear at one show and it was a very well executed setup, at Axpona don't remember the specific setup
And yes we did hear Rowland gear at another dealers and yes Jeff Rowlands house sound is on the warm and slightly recessed, which is why you love your Chord dac with it, the Chord dac is a forward sounding dac, it all comes down to system matching as you know.
Also we have just stated that if we hear a pair of Monitor Audio's that we like as much or better we would be happy to replace Paradigm with them, it doesn't get much less honest then that.
Well when a dealer that selling both says the monitor audio is better that holds a lot of weight and when someone that owns both and puts them into his two-channel system says the monitor audio is better that holds weight as well. Unfortunately you can't admit the truth cuz you're a paradigm dealer and I guarantee you if you put them side-by-side in your shop you probably would be dropping the paradigm because they're just not as good that's the bottom line. And I don't take a lot of stock listening to stuff at shows because those rooms are pretty bad but when I go to a dealer and listen to them like I did with a paradigm and the mids and highs sound bright in their room with their equipment then I know for sure that the speakers are going to be that way. And then when I went to listen to the monitor platinum and they were very natural sounding like instruments voice piano does in real life then there's not much of a choice is there, it was very obvious which speaker was better.
In my experience listening to speakers at most dealers is a crapshoot. The rooms are rarely optimal and getting speakers properly setup is problematic. At best unless they remove the rest of the speakers and electronics from the room and properly position the speakers, you don’t get an accurate listening experience.
You think your Naim and persona is going to quash my simaudio P8 W8 with the monitor audio Platinum 200? Who are you trying to kid? Are you a joke or what? Give me a break like I said my system consists of a Sim audio P8 W8, wired for sound 10th anniversary dac, which beat up on the Sim audio $15,000 deck and the bryston bd3 I believe it was, esoteric p10 transport, and all my wiring is Harmonic Technology magic 3. Good luck trying to beat that with your Naim and persona LOL. Naimit's not in the top 5 preamps and amps in the world like simaudio is.
No Ricredi we are not always going to be right. We do have opinions after listening and testing a ton of gear.
We actually like your responses which tend to be balanced, Urbie and or Bo are ridiculous posters.
We would never claim brand x is the only path to nirvanah or only brand x sounds good and correct which is why we sell Kef, Dali, Elac, Legacy,Quad, ATC, as well as Paradigm.
We have never said any of our products are better than anyone elses. We have said that a well setup pair of Personas do some things extremely well and they like the Kef Blades can challenge some of the $60K speakers most likely the Monitor Audio Pl 500 may as well.
One major point between Monitor and Paradigm is that Paradigms are frequently demonstrated on Anthem electronics at shows.
We are Anthem dealers and the Str electronics are excellent for the price but world class they are not which is why we demostrate our 9Hs with $50k worth of T+A electronics because if you go to most high end stores comparable speakers like Wilson or Magico are usually demoed with similar levels of quality.
We question how good a $35k pair of speakers is going to sound with a pair of speakers sandwiched betweem them with a wall of glass behind them in the front of an open room as one dealer in Canada has them being fed by a $1500 streamer? Pic found via Google search.
Do you think any serious speaker system is going to sound great with a wall of glass behind them?
Or the first time we heard them at a dealer who sells mostly mid fi gear and played a $35k speakers on a $3k int amp?
Monitor Audio at shows are matched by the dealers with very good electronics which are frequently much more expensive than the Anthem gear.
Hence our summation of your more likely to hear Monitor Audio with Luxman or Rowland gear.
Also audio Troy which Vancouver dealer are you talkin about? I didn't listen to the speakers in the front display room I listen to them in a dedicated sound room.Dumbass.you must think I'm pretty stupid. I've been doing this for 40 years.And anytime you want to come and visit Vancouver and come over and listen to my system I'll be happy to entertain you and then you'll see how good the platinum's are and how much better they are than the paradigm
Actually audio Troy how am I ridiculous because I'm telling the truth on what I heard. I really don't care what you think, but that's what I heard and that's what I say so if you don't like it too bad.
Boy you must have a pretty big room to need subwoofers with the 500 with those four 8-inch woofers. But I do like the rel subwoofers I think they're the most musical subwoofers that I've ever heard.. they integrate extremely well.
I own Vienna acoustics and the guy that sells them says they're waay better than anything monitor audio makes and they play well with 96% of all the components out there. Your arguments sound more like a 14 year old than a 40 year old, come on.
Hey ricred, I just tried something with my platinum's that increased the sound stage width and depth significantly. I forgot to check if my bolts were tightened properly and they were loose. so I tightened them just so they were snug to the wood and then you're supposed to give one eighth of an inch turn to tighten them and wow what a difference you should check your bolts to see if they're loose or not if you didn't tighten them originally. And like I said just tighten them until their snug and then just give them one eighth of a turn because if you tighten them too much it'll make the magnets pop out.
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