Bo in another alias?
Paradigm persona vs. Monitor audio Platinum
Just listen to the paradigm persona 7h.the monitor audio Platinum 300 generation two are so much more three-dimensional and open it's not even funny the paradigm sounded very two-dimensional compared to the monitors that MPD Tweeter puts the beryllium Tweeter to shame.
Showing 17 responses by audiotroy
Urbie you sound remarkably like Bo1972, please explain the properties of sound that you are mentioning. As per the Monitors or even the Personas being in the top three loudspeakers in the world that is a good laugh. We would consider that both of these loudspeaker would be in the secondary class of great loudspeakers for the money, along with Kef, B&W, Dynaudio, Top three loudspeakers: by our ratings, Kharma Veryron series, Tidal/Vimberg, Wilson Alexx, XLF, along with Rockport Arakis and a few others. We couldn’t disagree more, with your pronouncements about the Monitors, We had an original pair of the PL 300 MK 1 traded in and their top end was very hot, the redesigned second generation, MK II were too dull. We heard a few pairs at Axpona, and at CAP and the speakers were good but hardly awe inducing. Now to be fair the Paradigm Personas can also sound a bit forward, however when setup correctly they are more holographic and even more transparent with greater dynamics. The Persona 3F are remarkable sounding when driven by good electronics we know of no other $10k speaker that can touch them for the price. Perhaps you ought to listen to a pair well set up, you might be a bit surprised. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers |
Really Urbie, the Wilson Alexx is bettered by the PL 500? Sure. How about the Kharma Veryon? How about the Focal Utopia series? How about the Tidals? Sure they are. It is interesting that no one here other than Bo1972 feels like you do certainly feels like you are the same person. We are not saying that the PL 500 aren't good speakers they are decent speakers but in the pantheon of world's greatest speakers they are not. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Gee Urbie you write like Bo, you talk about the six properties of sound, sounds a lot like Bo, also with the same fanatically beliefs that the Monitors are better than every other loudspeaker. We feel that a well set up pair of Personas on warmer electronics, right source and cables do certain things extremely well and have certain advantages, very efficient, room tune able deep bass for the 9H, and they are extremely holographic, but do they sound better than a $120k pair of speakers hat are so much bigger no they are not, we do feel they compete with the speakers such as the Wilson Sasha, and the Alexia, but certainly not Grande Utopia or Scala Utopia level, nor Wilson Alex, nor Rockport Arakis either. As per your ridiculous notion that the $119k Wilson Alex’s are bright, we heard them at CAP last year on a Krell Duo 300 and an Illusion 2 preamp and the sound was extraordinary one of the best sounds at the show. We would not include either the Persona 9H or the Monitor PL 500 in that same class of huge image size, effortless dynamics, deep bass and smooth overall presentation, close but not as good. We would agree with you the the PL 500 do represent a fantastic value for a very large amount of sound. Wilson’s are hardly bright sounding. The point that you made about hearing the Personas on a different system in a different environment shows you lack perspective, that doesn’t mean your heard the Personas setup correctly, the same way that any pair of high end loudspeakers can sound less than exemplary. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Urbie here is our "final" take on this subject. You can't expect the same gear for the one gentleman who owned Personas and then switched to Monitors to work equally well for both loudspeakers. This is especially true with Home Theater gear which tends to not sound anywhere as good for Music then Home Theater, which would make the Personas most likely sound way too sharp. Unless that person was using a really good Home Theater amp, voice for music the sound could be horrible. The Personas are a brighter loudspeaker vs the Monitors which are a duller loudspeaker. If you look at both reviews you will see that Monitors AMT is rolled off in the top vs the Personas which has a rise in the top end. Therefore if you used brighter electronics on the Monitors to help bring out the top end you would sizzle your ears with the Personas. The same way that the Personas benefit from warmer electronics and cabling, therefore the warmer matching components that would work with the Personas would make the Monitors totally rolled off and uninspiring. This is where pronouncements about brand X being better than brand y fall down, you are demoing a system, the same way that a Ferrari engine transplanted into a Toyota doesn't make the Toyota a Ferrari. Monitor audio makes a fine loudspeaker so does Paradigm, which you prefer is up to you. There will always be fans of any particular product the smart guy or gal recognizes their own biases but comes at audio with an open mind and as we mentioned previously just because you hear product X at a dealer doesn't mean that it is setup correctly or with the right gear. Go listen to the product at many different dealers or ask the dealer to swap a component and or components and see what changes. As we recanted on another post just changing one board on the dac in a $150k Persona setup made that same system sound like an entirely different one, as all parts of the system must work together in unison. You can have the best speakers, electronics and cabling and the wrong source can torpedo the entire system. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers |
Urbie we have a $25k package of Naim and Persona 3f that squahes many $60k setups want to try it? Also looked at the pic of your vancover Persona dealers showroom if this is the place you heard them there is no wonder you wouldnt like them. I'm just stating a fact the monitor audio is a much better sounding speaker how do you quantify that statement. Looks like an opinion to us. |
Urbie First point Deutsh had Sabrinas which are okay at best. Did you not get the point we could be Monitor audio dealers in about five seconds if we wanted the line. Just because a Vancouver dealer likes Monitor audio over the Paradigms may mean that that dealer finds Monitor easier to sell did you ask him why he hasnt dropped Paradigm? Could it be that some of his clients prefer Paradigm? Also Urbie where are you getting your facts from there is no way Monitior audio is outselling B&W in Britan. Again Urbie I personally owned Monitor Audio Studio 20s in the early 2000s. Monitor audio is very well known in the States, Paradigm spent Millions of dollars in R&D to develop the Persona line. Again you smear Paradigm to praise Monitor wonder why? For the record we dont think the Personas are better than any other speaker we like many brands. You also miss the genius of the 9H which is a room tunable loudspeaker that can work in nearly any sized room pitty you cant say the same thing with the Pl 500s. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Urbie, Another point, just because a reviewer selects a loudspeaker doesn't mean that that loudspeaker is better or worse than anything else. There a number of factors which determine why a reviewer selects a set of loudspeakers. The first is of course sound, the second is looks, the third is how compatible is his gear and the synergy which may have favored the Monitors The last part is the sneaky one, many companies give reviewers ridiculous deals to purchase gear rather than having to send it back. We have heard the Monitors at Axpona and do believe CAP and came away less than thrilled at each demo of the Monitors. Where they bad no they were not, they sounded decent just not amazing, we also heard Magico and didn't like them either. We could easily get the line, the point is you have to first be interested enough to want to bring in a line, and again after hearing them on several occasions they never sounded good enough to warrant bringing in a pair to test. Again at a show you can''t always get the best demo, however, you can get a good idea of how a product may perform. At the last Axpona show the winners that we thought best sound were Wilson, Golden Ear, Vimberg, we thought the Persona 3F demo was good but disagreed with the choice of cabling and server which would have made them sound even better, the demo with the Persona 3F on a $4,500.00 Anthem integrated amp was not perfect the Persona 3F sounded absolutely amazing for a $10k speaker. gigantic soundstage, the speakers totally disappeared, and the bass was very deep and tight and the improvement with a $6,500.00 sub was somewhat anti-climatic as the 3F has such impressive bass in that demo. Again a tad bright, which is why we recommend an Innuous sever over the Aurender server, we play them with PCM transcoded to DSD and use warmer cables which add some tone color as the Anthem STR integrated isn't' a particularly warm amplifier. Urbie you don't sound like a regular consumer you seem to have an axe to grind with Paradigm and an agenda to promote Monitor Audio. We would be more than happy to bring in the line just have not found a reason to do so. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Ricredi, No hypocrisy at all, we never said that you shouldn't judge a speaker at a show, we go to shows all the time and everyone judges at a show. We have frequently said that setups at a show may or may not be optimum at a show based on what is being setup with the product in question. Also in most cases we hear products at shows as well as other dealerships. In the case of the Monitors they were being show with Luxman gear at one show and it was a very well executed setup, at Axpona don't remember the specific setup And yes we did hear Rowland gear at another dealers and yes Jeff Rowlands house sound is on the warm and slightly recessed, which is why you love your Chord dac with it, the Chord dac is a forward sounding dac, it all comes down to system matching as you know. Also we have just stated that if we hear a pair of Monitor Audio's that we like as much or better we would be happy to replace Paradigm with them, it doesn't get much less honest then that. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ \ |
No Ricredi we are not always going to be right. We do have opinions after listening and testing a ton of gear. We actually like your responses which tend to be balanced, Urbie and or Bo are ridiculous posters. We would never claim brand x is the only path to nirvanah or only brand x sounds good and correct which is why we sell Kef, Dali, Elac, Legacy,Quad, ATC, as well as Paradigm. We have never said any of our products are better than anyone elses. We have said that a well setup pair of Personas do some things extremely well and they like the Kef Blades can challenge some of the $60K speakers most likely the Monitor Audio Pl 500 may as well. One major point between Monitor and Paradigm is that Paradigms are frequently demonstrated on Anthem electronics at shows. We are Anthem dealers and the Str electronics are excellent for the price but world class they are not which is why we demostrate our 9Hs with $50k worth of T+A electronics because if you go to most high end stores comparable speakers like Wilson or Magico are usually demoed with similar levels of quality. We question how good a $35k pair of speakers is going to sound with a pair of speakers sandwiched betweem them with a wall of glass behind them in the front of an open room as one dealer in Canada has them being fed by a $1500 streamer? Pic found via Google search. Do you think any serious speaker system is going to sound great with a wall of glass behind them? Or the first time we heard them at a dealer who sells mostly mid fi gear and played a $35k speakers on a $3k int amp? Monitor Audio at shows are matched by the dealers with very good electronics which are frequently much more expensive than the Anthem gear. Hence our summation of your more likely to hear Monitor Audio with Luxman or Rowland gear. |
Urbie you should do your homework, " And just so everyone knows audio Troy either works at our owns audio doctor in New Jersey which is a home theatre installer. so obviously being a home theatre installer he doesn’t know very much about to channel and how it should sound. Cuz the paradigm persona don’t sound good in a 2-channel system. But keep using them for home theatre cuz that’s all they’re good for." Really? https://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-chord-audio-doctor https://www.stereophile.com/content/waterfall-hurricane https://www.stereophile.com/content/human-highway https://www.stereophile.com/content/nyas-2016-sunday-near-park-ken beta site www.audiodoctor.com/wp Kind of looks like we are experts in two channel audio doesn’t it? Again if you know how to setup a Paradigm Persona you are going to get great sound. Your comments about the Persona’s technology is laughable. The Persona’s use exactly the same material for both the midrange and tweeter which is much more desirable than the Monitor which uses a Heil AMT which uses a thin plastic film as the transducer, and a composite metal/ceramic driver for the midrange, hardly the way to create a coherent sounding loudspeaker. Also all drivers are made in Canada by Paradigm, with the pure Beryilllium from Brush Wellman, which is the only pure metal foundary that produces the pure metal in thin sheets to make drivers out of. Other unique technologies in the series include the bass drivers dual voice coil design, the bass driver's suspension, the Phase Aligning Lens, and of course the Anthem Room Correction system. Another interesting fact is that Monitors all show a depressed top end which creates a polite sounding loudspeaker, so if you prefer a softer sounding less dramatic sounding speaker then you would be a fan of the Monitors. The Personas do have a rise in the top end which only means that you have to have a more damped room with warmer equipment. As per not selling the Personas are selling very well all over the world and getting fantastic reviews. Personally Urbie we think you are totally inappropriate, although we sell Kef, Dali, Legacy, ATC, Paradigm, and a few other major lines we would never say that any of our loudspeakers are better than any of the competition nor are any of the other competitive brands either superior or inferior each company’s products have their own unique set of advantages and disadvantages, and sonic flavors, imaging, bass extension, dynamic capabilities, and sound stage height and width. Although we have only heard the Monitors at shows and at those shows we were not blown away doesn’t mean that the Monitors aren’t excellent and it is possible we would like them as much or more than any of our current brands of loudspeakers. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Urbie, the reviewer at 10 Audio has very few known reference components that one would normally compare any component to, his opinions are interesting but no more valid than any other reviewer. His rating of components is based on what sounds good in his setup, and sometimes, a particular components or loudspeaker may require you to change certain items in order to make that particular component shine with the rest of the components If you understand the industry, and have experience there are two types of loudspeakers. Many people in the industry refer to an easy to get a particular loudspeaker which sounds good in many setups a drop and plop, kind of loudspeaker. Loudspeakers which tend to sound "musical" Vandersteen, Harbeth, Verity Audio, many Sonus Fabers, Vienna Acoustics, these speakers tend not to have the ultimate resolution but are always enjoyable. vs The very high resolution camp are way more critical of setup in order to get the speakers to sound magical, Radiho, Persona, Rockport, etc. One could argue that you shouldn't have to work hard to create great sound, however, the same argument can be made with any truly cutting edge product that doesn't hold back. If you are driving a Porsche 911 Turbo you better make sure if you are driving the car at the track with very high octane gas and your tires are properly inflated and balanced, at 60 mph you wouldn't notice, at 160 mph any difference in inflation, or balance or lack of correct octane and you will not be driving the car without having a very different experience. The Personas are quite magnificent when they are setup correctly when they are not they are as you describe. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers |
Urbie again you get your facts straight. Neo makes wire for very few companies, Wireworld, Nordost, AQ, all use wire sourced from their own suppliers which is not Neotech. If you look at Wireworld's construction it is totally unique. Only the smaller companies use wire from these types of small suppliers. We have tested Furtech which uses some of the highest quality metals in their wire and the sound was good not amazing. There is so much more than just the metal. |
Brandon, Here is another perspective. First a bit of background we have been dealing with cables for a very long time. Our dealership started with Harmonic Tech, and then we moved to Acoustic Zen which was designed by Robert Lee who also designed Harmonic Tech first. The Acoustic Zen cable was better. We then moved to Synergistic and Audio Quest, both of these wires were better. Lastly we moved to Nordost and then finally to Wireworld which was the best out of the wide ranging manufacturers. The type of wire is just one element of a cables construction, most cable from the major companies use six nines or greater quality copper or silver which means that any impurities in the wire have been eliminated. Your choice of dielectric, shielding materials, alloy types, wire construction all matter as much as just the type of copper. Brandon you should try to borrow other wire companies and judge for yourself. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Urbie you speak like you know everything, most people here want a balanced perspective such as a dealer who has tried many different brands of wire. We have sold and played with more wire than you can imagine which gives us a much more intelligent approach to your drivel. To date we have tested: Harmonic Tech Acoustic Zen Soundstring Kubala Sosna Synergistic Transparent Audio Quest Enklein Nordost Wireworld Furutech Kind of makes a difference don’t it. As per you most people here are already tired of your bad and know it all attitude. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |