somehow I don’t think a Vandersteen 5a replacement would be anywhere near $10K
Quattro are $14 and TREO CT $8 ish....
Quattro are $14 and TREO CT $8 ish....
Paradigm Persona series
I'm beginning to poke around and gather opinions and information about a "super speaker" to replace my aging Thiel 2.4s. I like the idea of bass dsp room correction and I am a bit of a point source type imaging nut (thus the Thiels). So among other choices I've been looking at the Paradigm Persona series specifically the powered 9H with room correction for the bass. However I'm skeptical of the "lenses" i.e. pierced metal covers on the midrange and tweeter specifically because of Paradigm's claim that such screens "screen out" "out of phase" musical information. The technology in the design seems superlative but I just can't get past the claim re out of phase information and the midrange and tweeter covers. What could possibly be the science behind this claim? It just seems like its putting a halloween moustache on the mona lisa given the fact that the company is generally a technology driven company.
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Great comments Dvdboulet, yes it about synergy. Your post was very illuminating wouldn't it have been nice if some of those dealers actually had your equipment on display, might have made it easy? Your comments, We all know that gear matters... and can matter a lot. Most of us have been around long enough and have changed enough components in our system over time to know that some $$$ gear can make or break a system... and what sounds fabulous in one system can degrade the sound of another. It’s all about the synergy. Yes our point exactly we have worked very hard to tune our Persona reference system with just the right components to make it sound fantastic, and when we were demoing electronics we tried many different brands of gear, including Devialet, Electro, CJ, Thrax, before picking the T+A gear as our choice for true reference gear, fired up the Krell today and it does seem excellent especially for the money. Your experiences mirror our experiences with the Personas and certain other loudspeakers they sound okay on certain setups and magical on others and sometimes the two setups are the same price sometimes not. The issue that we were trying to highlight was not that we are necessarily better than other dealers, it is our commitment to creating memorable sound systems may be a bit different, hence we experiment with different power conditoners, cables, source components, vibration isolation devices, etc until we have the sound that we find magical and hopefully that is what our clients like as well. When we say we use some of these devices it is to illustrate the lengths we have gone to maximize the systems we are displaying, it is a process creating great sound and if you think that many dealers actually play with or believe that these types of devices work look at many of the stores setups and see. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Just so you don't miss my point Audiotroy. You are, IMHO, self serving and unethical. That is why I would never set foot in your store. It doesn't matter how great you are, or how great you think you are. That pretty much sums up the other posts that I had deleted. Hopefully, you don't get posts removed here for stating an opinion. |
I’ve been reading this thread for a while, and as an audiophile consumer... here’s my 2-cents. I’ve never met or spoken with audiotroy or visited his shop, but what I have done is auditioned several high-end speakers in the $10-$25K range recently when I was bitten by the bug to upgrade. Frustratingly the Magico A3 was no where on display in the Washington DC area last year when I was doing my auditioning, but I listened extensively to Dynaudio’s new flagship Contour, Focal Sopra 3s, Rockport Atrias, Persona 5Fs and a few others. I auditioned these speakers several times in the various shops where they were on display... both with the dealer’s preferred gear and then finally with my own gear. I literally hauled my Hegel 30 amp, Hegel 30 DAC, Ansuz power conditioning, Aurender music server, all cabling and still-points to each place so I could hear the speakers with my own gear. When this quest began... the speaker that sounded the best (in a room that closely approximated the size and shape of my own) was the Persona 5Fs driven by the dealer’s preferred Meridian amp and dac/pre front-end (and I think MIT cabling). It sounded lovely... silky, airy, open, expansive and lush. Bass was deep and powerful and palpable... midrange was liquid and utterly detailed with no brightness, harshness, or glare. Those were the speakers I was ready to buy. Then I swapped out the gear with my own... which was by no stretch sub-par. However, the sweetness and glow of the music vanished, and it just sounded "good" but no longer seductive (though still not . Interestingly, moving my same gear to the Rockports was almost a revelation... and was some of the best bass I have ever heard. In the end the speakers my own gear paired best with seemed to be the Focal Sopra 3s. In any case, the point of this story is that in the same room, the same set of Persona 5Fs sounded phenomenal fronted by one system, but then swapping in another (of comparable cost and audiophile design) only sounded "good" but not compelling. We all know that gear matters... and can matter a lot. Most of us have been around long enough and have changed enough components in our system over time to know that some $$$ gear can make or break a system... and what sounds fabulous in one system can degrade the sound of another. It’s all about the synergy. So why are we arguing? -Dave |
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Cmsgold you miss our points entirely, It is not about patting our selves on the back it is stating a simple reality. We visit a lot of dealers all over the country and there are good dealers with matching equipment, to showcase expensive loudspeakers and there are ones that do not. That is also not to say that everyone has dialed in systems that are expensive some of these systems don't sound that great while other ones do. As per issues with us we get numerous calls a week with people who report that are posts are helpful and illuminating. In another thread about servers we stated a simple fact we sell FIVE different brands of servers, do you not think that gives us a broader perspective than a dealer who only sells one brand of servers? We are always testing new brands of gear and new models to better serve our clients. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
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Cmsgolf your loss, we have plenty of clients who love us. As per another dealer, lets face the reality, many of the stores that sell high end loudspeakers have poor setups either they don’t have a good sound room or they lack the kinds of gear that would be used with this level of loudspeaker for whatever reason they are not investing in the rest of the gear to really demonstrate these speakers correctly up to their full potential. How do we know, we visit other dealers a lot of them, we heard the Personas in a two Massachusettes dealers, one was a decent high end shop who was playing on his best amp at the time which was a $3k Musical Fidelity integrated with $500 worth of cabling, this dealer sells mostly midfi systems. The other dealer is a major on line dealer who has one cramped high end sound room with the speakers all crammed in the back wall of a way too small room their setup was a $2k Parasound amplifier on a NAD Masters preamp dac a $4k preamp, not exactly what you would expect fronting $35k loudspeakers. There are some really good Paradigm dealers and many not so good ones we have seen the same issues with B&W, and KEF dealerships as well, they postion there products with dealers that can move a lot of product not necessarily the ones that have the commitment to really showcasing expensive loudspeakers correctly. Again we went to this dealers website the setup was not up to snuff for a $35k loudspeaker, that is not our fault that is the dealers. Unless their current setup is very different from their website photos you have the 9H and the 5F parked right aside each other in a room with a large cabinet in the middle, no room treatment is visible. Were they using power conditoning, what was the quality of their cables? etc. We play the Personas with all the right kinds of gear and setup methodology, we do not have another set of speakers right next to the Pesonas, we do have a single narrow audio rack it is from Critical Mass so it is designed to absorb energy from the components and it is open on all surfaces, we use high end cabling, we use high end power conditioning, we use very high end electronics which are even better than the Anthem electronics, from Krell, and T+A, Electrcompaniet, Conrad Johnson, we use suitable high end digital a Baetis reference server with an Aqua Hifi dac or a Lumin streamer. etc. Our open invitation has been taken up by people from Maryland as well as a gentleman from the Midwest who wanted to auditon the Kef Blades, Kef Rerence 5s, the Personas and the Legacys. If the OP was to visit us and visit all the New York dealers he could in one trip could hear almost every major electronics and speaker manufacuturers in a weekend that is what being in a major metropolitian area gets you. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
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By way of an update, I had an opportunity to audition the Paradigm Persona 9H at some length at an Atlanta dealer recently. They did not sound bright to me in that audition driven by an Anthem SR series power amp and pre amp. I have to say I was impressed with them in listening to a a shortlist of tracks that I take with me on a thumb drive. I need to go back after they really have them dialed into the room properly and take another long listen and to take some in room measurements using REW. I did not listen to speakers further down the food chain in this series although they did have the 5F on display. If its the 9H or nothing the problem is the price of a pair, not a problem per se but if I decide to spend that much that means there are other things in the running which I’ll have to travel to another city (perhaps Chicago) to audition. AND Vandersteen is coming out with a new model to replace the 5A sometime this year which could also be a contender. I'm in no hurry to make a decision. The Atlanta dealer offered me a discount on his demo pair of 9H's but it was only 10% so there was no real incentive to deal on those. I've come to expect 10-15% off when I place an order on a new item so a demo unit should be much more deeply discounted than 10%. And at these prices, Magico (S3, S5) and Rockport Technologies are two lines I'm anxious to hear. |
No Rivionale, you miss our points entirely. It is not that a $10k set of Personas needs a lot of tweeking to sound good, but they do like, and respond well to using the right cominbation of electronics. , The point made with all the tweeks are being used in our $150k reference system which although is quite expensive the performance in many areas matches or beats systems that we have heard that were $300k and above in price range. In the example we sited above Persona 3F at a client's home with a normal Living Room, a circa 2008 $5,000.00 Classe Cap 2100 intergrated amplifier, with the $4k T+A amp, and a set of Wirworld Gold Eklipse Interconnects $1,600.00 and a set of Wireworld Silver Eclipse speaker Cables $3,500.00 plus 2 AQ power cords and an Audio Magico Power conditioner the Personas sounded good but not magical, we changed to a $13k Naim stack which includes a preamp with a built in dac and streamer, same everything else the speakers sprang to life and sounded amazing. Same room, same cabling, same speakers just with different electonics and the sound was extraordinary, without a hint of brightness, huge soundstage, deep bass, a great natural midrange. We preach that it is a system approach you have to have the right combination of products working together. You are right there are easier audio products which can be just dropped into place and sometimes you can get pretty good results, generally these are the warmer and more forgiving designs which may not ever sound bright, but can sound rolled off and sluggish to other listeners. Good luck to you Riovionale. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Contuzzi never sold Ricredi anything. Why would we advocate Ricredi change from one $30k set of speakers to another? We recomended Ricredi change from rowland to a different electronics because-the new Monitor audios Amt tweeter is more recessed than the first gen and Jeff Rowlands gear is a bit rolled sounding. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
contuzzi, I've never purchased anything from Audiotroy. My dealer and I have been friends for several years and he allows me to either bring components home to evaluate in my system or I can listen to components in his system. I'm just as familiar with my friend's system as my own. If I was interested in a component that my friend didn't carry, I would purchase from another dealer. I purchased my Audioquest Hurricane power cords from another dealer, because they let me try them at home and my friend doesn't carry Audioquest. I just don't see the value in trying to destroy a person I don't know. At one time I was interested in a component that Audiotroy talks about on Audiogon, so I called him. Fortunately I was able to hear it relatively close to where I live and I didn't like it. |
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Talking to Audiotroy several times has allowed me to see him from a different perspective. Based on our conversations I don’t see him as arrogant, but someone that has a lot of knowledge and wants to expand his customer base. He never once suggested I sell my speakers, but he has provided several relatively inexpensive ways to improve my current system. I take everything Audiogon members post with a grain of salt, including Audiotroy. I use my own ears to decide what components to purchase. |
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Also our main demo room is 26 by 20 with 10 foot ceiling, don’t think your dealer has a single room of that size. They do. Don’t make assumptions and take underhanded jabs at other dealers. Everyone that works there is also a much less annoying human being. Our demo room with the 9H uses echo buster panels on the walls behind the speakers, shakti hollographs, acoustic system resonators, stein harmonizers, a critical mass rack and center stage footers, Furutech NCF boosters, Audio magic power conditioning, Enklekin cabling and T+A electronics with a Light Harmonic Davinci Dac being fed by a $15k Baetis server. Another garbage post. So now to achieve true reference levels with the Persona series one must use a series of complex resonators, footers, room harmonizers and other nonsense. Some of us prefer to buy speakers that sound good-to-great in regular rooms with decent electronics and setup, with the potential to sound great-to-amazing in a proper room with better electronics and setup. Every one of your posts about the Persona series is always qualified with the "tweaks" required to make them sound even decent, much less amazing. That is not inconsistent with what those of us that don’t like them are saying: that the speaker is inherently flawed and there are better options available. One should not have to go through such great lengths with a pair of speakers that costs $10,000+. But because you have skin in the game, you’re willing to take these ridiculous lengths to defend them on the internet. We get it. I’m tired of the arrogance in your posts. No matter the topic or thread you post in, there is always the sense that you think (1) you know more than everyone else and/or (2) that others do not hear the things that they hear. If your goal by posting on these forums is to generate sales, in my opinion you have failed miserably. You’ll never see a cent of my money, even I loved Paradigm speakers. |
Troy: Of course I said something nice about the Paradigms. They are good speakers--but not as good IMHO as you maintain. The only reason I bother to respond to your posts is not to criticize the gear you carry (I very much like T&A) but to criticize your constant selling and self promotion. Write like a regular human and you will probably never hear from me again. |
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Ricredi if you notice some of our posts we praise speakers we don't sell and give a reason why we don't carry other particular models. In the case of the Revel Salons they are nice speakers but we feel the Kef Blades are even better after hearing them at several places over the years. As per Magico in one discussion we said we were intrigued by the A3 but so far only heard them once and did not like that pairing that means it might have been the setup and not the speakers we have yet to pass a true judgement on the A3, the Magico M7 at Goodwins was a decent demo but way too expensive for the sound they were getting. As per Sciencecop saying we never heard really expensive Magico's at Goodwins I guess they are selling air aren't they https://superphonica.com/all-products/speakers/full-size-speakers/magico-q7-mk2/ We have said many times it is the pairing of room acoustics, cabling, electronics sources and accessories, that work to create magic in a room with the Personas or any other set of loudspeakers. We have heard Personas sound terrific or bad depending on what they were being used with and how they were setup. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Ricred1 you have talked with us and you know we call em like we hear em. In our previous posts we have praised speakers we don't sell including Rockports and recently at the Capital Audio Fest heard the $110k Wilsons and was blown away by their sound on the Krell elelctronis. What is interesting is you have so many guys like Sciencecop harping on the speakers measurements and not at all of the reviewers who have praised the sound of the system. As we mentioned we just did a demo Persona 3F on a Naim stack and the sound was amazing in a real room without acoustical treatment, we changed just the electronics from the Classe Cap 2100 with the T+A Dac 8DSD, to a Naim NAC 272 preamp/dac/streamer plus a NAP 250 power amplifier and the sound went from decent to amazing on the Persona. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
I respect all opinions, because Audio and most things in life are about personal preference. What I don't like is the hypocrisy from many that love Paradigm speakers. I see comments similar to this all the time, "
The issue with any of the cleaner and more detailed loudspeakers is going to be setup or detailed speakers required the right components." While at the same time constantly making statements about how over priced and/or bad a particular speaker sounds. Can't we all agree the speakers can sound very different depending on the rest of the components? I heard Magico A3 speakers sound completely different in separate systems. No speaker can be universally loved! |
Heard the Magico M series at Goodwins and was not impressed for a $180kIt would be hard to be impressed given the fact that Goodwin does not have the $180K M... Regardless, these Persona cant be tamed, their aggressiveness brittle sound comes from the midrange breakup mode that are not tamed properly. It does not matter how you “massage” it. You don’t want to hear to the breakup region and no amount of "setup" will change that. |
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