Paradigm Persona B Loudspeakers Professional Review

I take any review as a grain of salt. It's not my room, my gear not my own idea of great sound. After seeing a amp that is quite good get a so, so review in Stereopile. ☺ I looked what that reviewer used. The amount of add on tweaks he had in his system there is no way you ever hear how any piece of brand of gear sounds. Some the tweaks i have tried and sold because they did more harm than good, colored the sound in many ways some bloated the bass, killed pace and so forth. In the review he said the amp sounded over warm, not detailed etc. Well take out all the stuff that killing the sound of this amp then listen, like old days of this hobby without all the add ons that become a market to itself and resold over and over. Do a review plugged into a 20 amp
line  that is dicated and then do a real true and honest review. Audio mags are good for one thing the ads, the rest you take as a grain of salt. Your room, your home and your own ears and experience.

Comparing a 2-way bookshelf to a 3-way tower is really apples and and oranges. Harman Audio's research indicates 30% of a speaker's preference bass performance, and a bookshelf isn't going to keep up with a tower there.

A two-way can be used nearfield for instance which a 3-way tower can't at all, as you typically need to be at least three meters away for all the drivers to align their output properly.

mofojo
  
I’m pretty sure they go to some audio shows, check them out if you can, the speakers I mentioned (their flagship) are really good. I know Salk and Philharmonic (other well respected ID brands) go to many shows, and I’ve heard many people tell me they were usually one of the best sounding rooms in the entire show.

I think a small company with 1 or 2 good designers that have total control over the finished product can be a good thing if they have the expertise, experience and a good ear. I'm sure many of you understand how the bureaucracy of a larger company can get in the way of making good decisions, progress, or the ability to innovate.  Ever heard the phrase too many cooks in the kitchen? Never heard the Ascends.

Mzkmcx,

You miss many of the points that are raised. The NRC measurements are not necessarily the same as the response that Paradigm engineered into the speakers. Unless you talk to the developement engineers you have no idea of what kind of response that they were striving for when used in a real room.

Also you can see that the on axis response is different than the off axis ones, perhaps that is why we find the speakers to work well with toe in. 

Paradigm has their own Anchoic chamber and again spent $4 million dollars developing these speakers, so do you honestly think that  Paradigm doesn't know what they are doing and a tiny gnat of a company that nearly no ones knows about has managed to out engineer one of the largest speaker manufacturers in North America?

There is no compromise in the Beryillium midrange drivers, Paradigm can afford to develop one and it is a superior to a Ceramic one. We have heard many speakers with Ceramic midrange drivers and invariably that have a somewhat artifical quality in the midrange. 

A set of Persona B with a good subwoofer willl challange a lot of true reference speakers, which is their value. 

As per holding their own vs Kef, we have the Ref 1 and in many ways the Persona B have an even more natural midrange. 

As per your last comment: Not trying to sound like a prick, but I just don’t like it when people spend a lot of money and don’t get the best for the money (like buying a car made by GM instead of an Asian or German one).

Please tell the forum in what way is a GM Cadillac or a Corvette not a remarkable performer for the money, The brand new Corvette is heads and shoulders in build quality vs their older models.  The CTS models have many fans even compared to Mercedes and BMW. 

Our Persona 9H are remarkable loudspeakers that can challange any expensive reference speaker, many reviewers have gone on the record to extoll just how remarkable the new Persona series is even compared to the best reference loudspeakers.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

audiotroy

I looked at the same plots you looked at and did not see many of the issues you mentioned.

Uhh, the 5dB rise from 4kHz to 10kHz, can you not see that? Can you also not see the dip at ~1400Hz off-axis? Paradigm can’t even do phase coherence in the crossover region.

Please mention a single loudspeaker on the market that uses a pure Beryillium midrange driver? Can you find a single loudspeaker that is under $40k that has a Beryillium midrange driver, even Focal, has not figured out how to make such a driver, and you have one here in a $7k set of speakers.

Exactly, so if it’s rare for <$40K, why would you expect it to be good for $7K? That’s like saying “This car looks like a Bugatti but only costs $20K!”; the looks are there, but the internals are not.

100% coherent sound because you have exactly the same material for both the woofer and the tweeter. This is a huge advantage.

That’s not that big of an advantage. You can use a RAAL ribbon tweeter, a ceramic midrange, and a woofer made of traditional material, which is exactly what Salk does in their higher end speakers. The only benefit Beryylium has is it’s lighter and faster than material like Aluminum.

Paradigm has a very large and talented engineering staff that spent $4 million dollars developing all the technologies present in this line of loudspeakers do you not think that they have the test gear to make accurate measurements?

I bet they do, but with the compromises of using Beryllium for that price range, no amount of tweaking (besides boosting some response via the crossover, which raises distortion) can help them. It’s like doing open heart surgery with rusty equipment, no matter how good the surgeon is, you’ll still cause damage.

Most home measurements are not the same as what you would get in a lab due to the wildly unpredicable effects of furniture and room construction which is why lab measurements are delivered by the manufacturer. If you have a sparse room without a lot of damping you may also get a high frequency rise, which is why lab measurements in an anchoic chamber are much more accurate.

These measurements are done by the National Research Center of Canada, in an anechoic chamber; it’s where Dr. Toole worked before he came to Harman.

As per value the Personas have been compared to much more expensive loudspeakers and are considered a value for the sheer amount and calibre of their engineering.

A decade ago they made good stuff for the price, not anymore, same with B&W. It’s like people who say REL makes the best subs, it’s not, ID brands like Rythmik/HSU/PSA are better, and by a large margin.

If it was a blind test and done with good brands (Revel and KEF, not Wilson Audio), then no, there is 0% chance they’d come out as superior. I’ve helped out quite a bit of people with large budgets, and every time they were considering a high end brand that’s not good, like Wilson, I told them to consider competitors like the KEF Blade 2 or Revel Salon2, and every single time they told me I was right and it blew away the other ones, which is 100% to be expected based on the measurements.

One of our clients has the 9H with the remarkable T+A electronics and he plays a Steinway, we played the same recording on the speakers and it was very similar.

If you played a G7 and then compared it to a B8, they would not sound the same, the B8 would be way too emphasied.

And again, a counterpoint you didn’t bring up was what I said about the specs. Sorry, but It’s hard respect a company selling high end gear that give misleading, sometimes even false, claims.

For less than half the price of the Persona B, you can get an Ascend Acoustics Sierra Tower with RAAL upgrade, and it will sound much better.

Not trying to sound like a prick, but I just don’t like it when people spend a lot of money and don’t get the best for the money (like buying a car made by GM instead of an Asian or German one).

Mzkmxcv

Excuse me dude are you a loudspeaker designer/engineer?

I looked at the same plots you looked at and did not see many of the issues you mentioned. As per being overpriced compared to what?

Please mention a single loudspeaker on the market that uses a pure Beryillium midrange driver? Can you find a single loudspeaker that is under $40k that has a Beryillium midrange driver, even Focal, has not figured out how to make such a driver, and you have one here in a $7k set of speakers.

Aside from the remarkable clarity of the Beryllium midrange you have a 100% coherent sound because you have exactly the same material for both the woofer and the tweeter. This is a huge advantage.

Paradigm has a very large and talented engineering staff that spent $4 million dollars developing all the technologies present in this line of loudspeakers do you not think that they have the test gear to make accurate measurements?

Most home measurements are not the same as what you would get in a lab due to the wildly unpredicable effects of furniture and room construction which is why lab measurements are delivered by the manufacturer. If you have a sparse room without a lot of damping you may also get a high frequency rise, which is why lab measurements in an anchoic chamber are much more accurate.

As per value the Personas have been compared to much more expensive loudspeakers and are considered a value for the sheer amount and calibre of their engineering.

Last point any very high resolution loudspeaker may sound bright if the equipment or room is not working well with them.

Lastely we have sold and setup many pairs of these loudspeakers in clients homes and they sound fantastic.

One of our clients has the 9H with the remarkable T+A electronics and he plays a Steinway, we played the same recording on the speakers and it was very similar.

Dave and Troy, Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers

mzkmxcv...seems that you have an agenda against Paradigm, sorry but is what looks like.

I’ve never heard a Paradigm in my life ... the 9Hs are the only paradigm I know.

96dd sensitivity and ARC room correction was the keys for curiosity to heard them.

For me specs are not sound...I love SET tube amps and specs of this kind of amp are crap, but I don´t change for any transistor amp in the world.

What makes me a really uncomfortable is when someones said that I like bright speakers and that’s not the case ... I have 25 years of experience and I’ve had dozens of equipment at home. Marten, Rockport, TAD, Estelon are reference speakers that I had in the past and I know when a speaker is bright. I hate a system that is bright and lean...I like a full, natural and organic sound and at this moment is what I have here at home.

Nope, they are for sure too bright. People saying it’s better are most likely dealing with a placebo effect, which is 100% real, and will influence even direct A/B comparisons. I will not hesitate to say that every single speaker Paradigm makes today is not worth their price, it’s all marked up due to the beryllium.

Measurements: https://www.soundstage.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1788:nrc-measurement...

There is a 5dB rise from 5kHz to 10kHz, it for sure is a bright speaker. Also, in the off-axis measurements, you can see a drop in output in the crossover region (which is ~1400Hz and not the stated 2kHz), which shows sub-par crossover design.

Also, Paradigm gives BS specs. They state 60Hz-20kHz at +/-2dB on-axis, and yet if you go 100Hz-20kHz it’s already +/-4dB, and if you go to 60Hz it’s actually +/-6dB. I don’t respect any company that gives BS specs.

The 9H sounds completely different than the Persona B's.  Paradigm really compromised the magic of the Be midrange to become a woofer with the bookshelf's.  The crossover in the B's makes my ZOTL amp sound lifeless ...yet it sounds magical driving the 9H's.  Honestly the 9H is the best high efficiency speaker i've heard.

Hello, I am new to the forum.

I have Paradigm Persona 9H with Triode TRX-M845, and sincerely, it’s really a mystery for me when someone claims that the Paradigm Persona 9h are bright.

In my setup none of this is happening... the sound is full and three-dimensional and I can hear for hours. For example, last Saturday my wife had a birthday party and I took the opportunity for a listening session that started at 10pm and only finished at 3am !!

And any change of equipment or cable is really evident with this speakers. I tried Synergistic Research and Kubala Sosna and the differences are really evident...in the end I choosed Kubala.

I have a pair of Persona B’s. I have a pair of KEF LS50’s. I love the sound of the KEF’s,  but after awhile they can sound harsh in my environment—high ceilings and hardwood floors. I ended up getting the Persona B’s after hearing them. These have all the detail and clarity of the KEF’s, but match better with my room. I can listen to these for hours. I’ve done AB comparisons with the KEF’s and prefer the Personas in this room. I just can't part with the KEF's, so the KEF’s will go to carpeted environment. 

 

Roger Kanno’s (SoundstageHIFI) review seems closer to my experience. So glad I heard the Personas before reading Jerry Seigel’s review. 

Worth noting the guy who wrote the review (Jerry) was selling the Personas a few months ago and said some very different things at the time, that he thought the Personas were better than the Focal Sopra 1s. Quite a backflip he's made.

You may have a far better setup.

What electronics, source, and cables were they using?

My opinion is a little different than yours. I didn't hear a "greater" amount of clarity compared to my system. I took several CDs that I'm very familiar with... Again, the 7Fs sound very good, but I didn't hear any details that I haven't already heard. Is it possible that even if the Personas were setup perfectly I could prefer another speaker? 

Dear Ricred1, the issue with your demo might have been the demo setup, with that being said, the Personas are amazing loudspeakers if you value what they do which is creating a holographic soundstage, overall resolution and tight deep bass they are hard to beat especially for the price.

We told you that the Monitors in some ways are better, which is image size and overall impact, the larger physical size of your speakers makes for a big powerful sounding speaker.

It all comes down to what specific virtues you  value most image size, vs a smaller more focused yet still big sounding loudspeaker with a greater amount of overall clarity which is why we told you to keep your loudspeakers.

If you visit us and listen to our Persona 9H setup I think you will see the merits of what this design brings to the table vs many other similarly priced loudspeakers, with the voicing of the Personas they are very equipment setup critical, not more so then other similar high resoloution  loudspeakers but for them to really shine you  have to really have the right set of gear, or the speakers will not sound anywhere near what they can sound like when everything is right with them.


What equipment was on them when you heard them and how big was the room?

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

All speakers benefit from being connected to the "right" components based on how they're voiced. I have great respect for your knowledge Audiotroy, but I submit your talk about the Personas created unrealistic expectations for me. Although I think they are very good, I submit many speakers in their price range sound just as good in the "right" system. 

Stereo 5 you asked so here is our reply. 

We personally know several major reviewers, and to say that just because someone is a reviewer they A: Know what good sound is or B: They know how to setup a system or C: They have at that particular momment the right matching gear is a highly charged topic.

The difference between a dealer and a reviewer is, or can be the sheer range of gear at our disposal that we can experiement with.

So for example we have one sound room with 54 components, that includes starter amps for $1,000.00 Rega, Nuprime, NAD, etc

multiple Dacs from Nuprime, NAD, Mytek, T+A, Aqua, Naim to name a few

multiple Electronics lines from Naim, Micromega, Anthem, Synthesis, Unison, Electrocompanient, Parasound and CJ, Manly, etc.

So we can play with many different combinations.

An interesting demo occured last week, we got a call from a client with B&W 804D3 looking for a new amp, mentioned Vincent which we used to carry and was very good, and we told him we don't have a Vincent on the floor but when you factor in a good Dac better than the starter internal Dac of the 237 you would be at a $3k-4k price range, so why don't you listen to the Micromega M100 a $4,500 amp/dac/streamer which is a fantastic piece.

We don't sell B&W and so we setup the Personas 3F and to demonstrate the difference we started with the Anthem STR integrated, a $4,500.00 integrated, now we like the piece, but in our tests it always sound clean, with good bass a nice soundstage but a bit dry. 

Guess what customer heard the same thing when we compared the STR to the identically priced Micromega M100 which is also a class A/B amp with Dac, the difference in the sound of the speakers was very audible. The Micromega was richer in the midrange, a bit more delicate in the top and has a warmer deeper bass over the STR.

Long story short the same speakers sounded totally different.

The client then mentioned his love of tubes, and we played the Synthesis A 100T a $7,500 tube integrated with an excellent built in dac and boom similar persepective to the Micomega with the huge soundstage width and deepth of tubes. The customer was hooked, and is not contemplating the purchase of the Synthesis.

It is one of the things we preach, it is system matching, a speaker like the Persona or the Elac Adantes, they require somewhere to have components that inject warmth into the sound, so you may need a rich sounding dac or one with tubes or wamer solid state brands like Naim.

So one must be cognisant that when you are demoing any one component in reality you are experiencing that entire chain and unless you play with the particular product and can see that products strengths and are then committed to bring out that products strengths and ammeliorating that products weakness then and only then can you get the sound that you are looking for. 

This is also why many audiophiles like speakers which are voiced warmer, ie "musically"  the warmer voicing of a Harbeth or Vandersteen or some of the newer Wilsons means you are less likely  to produce a pairing which sounds brighther and harsher, these types of speakers can be easier to get right.

We recently spent time with the Focal Sopras and they were way warmer then the older Focals, they did not have as a defined soundstage as the Personas nor did they have the same unbelievable clarity, but in many ways it was a similar sound to the Persona and you can see how well the new Focal series is selling when everyone loves them.  This is a delibrate choice in voicing. The Personas were designed to have 0 Personality by themselves, the entire marketing of the Persona series makes that evidently clear, the speaker is supposed to take on the "persona" of the music and matching gear.

The same issues that someone would have with a speaker like this is no difference than a Radiho, or any other very high resolution speaker like a B&W Diamond series as well, you must carefully find the matching components or you will not be moved by the sound and if you are unwilling to view this match as a journey you will never be satisfied with what a product with this kind of resolution can accheive when the pairing is correct. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

@stereo5 

It’s funny you mention ‘icepicks in the ears’ because the first few speakers I heard that used AMTs that was my reaction to them.  Then I heard the Triton References, Spatial X2, Legacy Aeris and Valor, the Emotiva Airmotivs, and the Gayle Sanders Eikon and my opinion on them changed completely - something was just off about my first demos, whether it be Room acoustics, positioning, settings on the electronics, source material, or something else.  

There were a lot of Beryllium tweeter speakers at Axpona and most sounded lovely.  The new Satori Beryllium tweeter in particular is making its way into a lot of designs.  

Between the new Revels with the Beryllium tweeters, the Salk Song3A with the RAAL ribbon, the Mangers with their unique bendy-wave driver, the Martin Logan electrostats, and the Legacys with the big AMTs there were excellent examples of treble reproduction using a variety of high frequency drivers that all sounded great.  

rlb61,
I couldn’t agree more, " Everyone hears differently, including reviewers. Remember, one person’s awesome Be tweeter is another person’s piece of garbage. Just sayin’." I always say, no absolutes only preferences! Unfortunately, some on Audiogon seem to think their preference equates to an absolute!

Experience has taught me that relying on reviews solely is a sucker’s game. The only way to know for certain whether the speakers are good for you is to audition them yourself. Everyone hears differently, including reviewers. Remember, one person’s awesome Be tweeter is another person’s piece of garbage. Just sayin’.

Among a big list of speakers I've auditioned in the last couple years,  I auditioned the Personas.  I found them very clear, but I did find myself fatiguing from the sound after a while.  That's one of the main things that gave me pause about them, and almost none of the other speakers I auditioned left me feeling the same. 

That's not to say they are somehow "objectively fatiguing speakers."  Just one more person's report of his experience.

Why do you care if you think beryllium tweeters are automatically bad?

The Persona B are incredible.  Anyone who has heard them properly set up (and no they don’t need warm amplification) would agree.  

This reviewer obviously has an agenda, or he got a defective pair.  Maybe he is just running on a lean mixture.

@contuzzi....………………………………………….

I am certainly not trying to start negative buzz about the speakers. The reviewer has been around forever and from what I had read about him, he was said to be arrogant and pushy. I didn’t find that at all in my long conversation with him and that is why I mentioned meeting him. As far as putting those speakers off my list, it is because of the Beryllium drivers. I do not like any speakers with those type of drivers. To me, it is like sticking an ice pick in my ear drums.

Don’t try to turn this into something it is not.

As far as my Triton Ref speakers and Triton 1 speakers, I never said they go down to 16hz,  and I happen to like the tweeters in the speakers.  Furthermore, why are you dragging MY speakers into this?  I am interested in what others think who have heard the speakers, period.

That review is a complete joke.  I'm not even sure who that guy is in the first place. 

However, with your last line -- it almost seems like you're just trying to generate negative buzz for these speakers for some dumb reason.

This is the poison that is the audio industry now.  Some fool says something bad about a pair of speakers and any potential buyers don't even bother to listen for themselves.

Also, your idea that Beryllium tweeters automatically means "harsh and bright" is just so ignorant and short sighted.  Aren't you the same guy who thinks your Triton Reference speakers play down to 16hz at a decent level because the web site says they do?

I auditioned them at a dealer in Tampa maybe 6-8 months ago and thought they were the best bookshelves I’ve ever heard, no hint of the coarseness, brittleness, or harshness he mentions.  

After getting to hear many more speakers at Axpona I don’t know if I’d still say they’re the best bookshelf/standmount I’ve heard, the Revel M126be, TAD Micro Evolution, and Raidho XT-1 are all right in a pack with it, but it’s probably still easily up in the top five.