Oppo 105 D vs. DAC-transport combination.


To my great dismay, the more I listen, I’m finding my Oppo 105 is outperforming a very well thought of DAC and transport combination for which I paid 3x the price.  Basically the sound stage is wider and better defined.
Both the DAC and transport are less than a year old.  I thought I was upgrading.
Played by itself, the DAC-transport combo sounds great.  Until I compare it to the Oppo. 
I can’t understand it!
128x128rvpiano
Not surprising as the Oppo is excellent. To best the 105 you probably should try Stereophile Class A+ DACs or the 205 from Oppo.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/recommended-components-2018-edition-digital-processors

The Benchmark DAC 3 is about 40% less than the next most expensive and 1/10 the cost of the most expensive one. Keep your Cyrus transport as Benchmark will take any digital input without fuss (I haven’t found any cable or any input or any reclocker to improve the sound out of the box with stock cable and connects). Benchmark is popular with classical listeners.
Benchmark sounds great, but I would have to come up with the two grand.
I was already considering the Oppo 205.  They’re supposedly coming out with a new run this month.  I’ve long been on the waiting list to buy.
Greetings Shardone
 I strongly disagree
 I have 3 customers that brought in their Benchmark DACs
The Ayre Codex easily outperformed the above.
one fellow in disbelief brought his 600 dollar power cord with him and insisted it would make the difference, The stock cord on the Ayre Codex
was still obvious that it outperformed the Benchmark.
An AQ thunder Power cord and Ayre Codex together are very special.
 Best,
  JohnnyR
There's a lot of high priced crap out there.

I have an Oppo 105 and didn't play it very much as it didn't come close to my vinyl.

I ran the Oppo into an LKS and the improvement was amazing. 

Better still when I ripped my CDs and SACDs and play them through a laptop directly to the DAC.  I consider it on par with my vinyl . . . not the same, but as good.

The Oppo still serves well for video-audio combo.
@ OP,
something seems to be wrong with this situation:
What ICs are you using? AES or SPDIF or Toslink out of the Oppo?
What power cords are you using? Did you A/B the Oppo vs the Cyrus/Schiit with the SAME ICs ? the SAME Power Cords?

Same question for the Cyrus/Schiit combo. 

Unless Oppo has made gargantuan changes to the transport of the 105 over the 95. I had the Oppo 95, the transport on it was mediocre at best. 
ICs are Morrow Toslink between the Cyrus and the DAC, Morrow MA4 out of the DAC to the preamp, MA 3 between the Oppo and the preamp (RCA’s).
Stock power cords on both Cyrus and Oppo.
Morrow MA 4 power cord between preamp (Currently Emotiva XSP1, while my Conrad-Johnson PV11 is out for repair,) and Nuforce (Reference 9 V3) mono-block amps.
I have the Oppo 95.  The 105 is light years better.

It’s the jitter on the S/PDIF coax output of the Oppo:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154408.0

The same jitter will not be experienced when using the internal DAC.

It can be fixed and even improved however:

If you add a Synchro-Mesh reclocker and a good BNC coax cable, the Oppo jitter is reduced to ~7psec at the end of the cable, rather than the 800psec of the Oppo and cable alone. More than 100X less jitter. You will not find ANY transport with jitter this low.

Jitter is ALL that matters in a digital source.

Steve N.

Empirical Audio

I recently sold my Oppo 105 after my 205 arrived. I swear within the last six months the 105 was sounding SO GOOD! Could it take five years to break in?
Dweller,

Are you saying you liked the 105 more than the 205?
Important! because I’m seriously considering getting the 205.
@rvpiano - There were many reasons for buying the 205. As it is still breaking in, won't make judgements yet. The 205 does sound great out-of-the-box. It's just that the 105 always sounded a little "in your face", a tad harsh with redbook CDs (which is why I often used a Rega DAC). SACD sounded fantastic, however. The 105 just started to sound its best in the last few months. I will say that the 205 makes quite a bit of noise when playing MQA CDs (I have only one). It sounds like a PC burning a CD at 3X speed. Don't know if it makes the same noise streaming. 
dweller— Thanks for the response.

 Doesn’t sound as though there’s a big difference yet.

Of course you now have 4K video!
OP
Have you tried using the Oppo as a transport for the Gumby?  How did that sound compared to to the Oppo by itself?  If you have already mentioned this I apologize but I didn’t see it.
@audioengr   
I don’t follow your reasoning.  The OP wasn’t complaining about the Oppo.  He preferred it to the Cyrus/Schiit combo.  How will reducing jitter in his preferred component change this perception?
@melm 
sorry the Oppo 105 didn’t come close to sounding like your vinyl.  Perhaps if Oppo had figured out a way to compress their dynamic range, add speed instability and most importantly simulate the sound of frying bacon superimposed on the music, then they would still be making players
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Johnny,

(((Isn’t the Ayre Codex primarily a headphone amp?)))

No, its also one of the Best Dacs we have heard for under 5 K period
USB input and Optical. a discrete analog balanced output stage
I would suggest you hear it.
JohnnyR
mahler123,

I had originally used the Oppo as transport to the Gumby ( and to my previous Theta DAC) prior to buying the Cyrus.
The Cyrus-Gumby combination sounded better.  
I just never expected the Oppo alone to sound best!
@audioconnection

The Ayre Codex has only 19 bit resolution vs the DAC 3 21 bits. The Ayre Codex has 3rd harmonic distortion at (-60 dB) 0.1% at full output and 2nd and 5th harmonic is typically at -75 dB.

For sure the Ayre Codex will sound different - such high 3rd harmonic distortion will likely give it a more euphonic sound similar to a tube amp.

I don’t doubt some people will much prefer the Ayre Codex to the DAC 3. Ayre make excellent products. In comparison the Ayre may sound more rich and musical and the DAC 3 more lean or thin.
Shardone
 Have you done a direct comparison?
Meter reader has nothing to do with its performance
Its op amps in the Benchmark Vs discrete devices in the Ayre
 If you listen you will switch I promise you its ugly but truth
 Listen to RCA Heifetz/Munch Boston/ violin hardest thing to do and the Ayre's finesse will be obvious with overtones all intact and you will thank me.
Best ,
 JohnnyR

     Mahler123 stated:
"@melm Sorry the Oppo 105 didn’t come close to sounding like your vinyl.  Perhaps if Oppo had figured out a way to compress their dynamic range, add speed instability and most importantly simulate the sound of frying bacon superimposed on the music, then they would still be making players."

    I don't believe mahler123 deserves to be called 'an ignorant fool' for his insightful and quite humorous comment. 
     Listening to music emanating from a dead quiet background is a  quality that I would think and hope we all can appreciate as a significant contributor to excellent sound quality in our systems.
     
Tim
Interestingly, when I stream Tidal through the Gumby DAC, it sounds a lot better than streaming through the Oppo, even though the opposite is true with CDs.
CDs through the Oppo though sound better than the same CD performances through Tidal.
If you hear a lot of noise with clean records, you probably need a new turntable/cartridge setup. My records generally play with little or no background noise.
Sorry for so many posts in a row, but I made a discovery.
After finding that Tidal sounded better through the Gumby, I did as mahler123 had suggested and hooked up the Oppo with the Gumby.  I A-B ed the two setups and, Voila, the Oppo/Gumby combo sounded better than the Oppo by itself.
It’s hard to believe the Cyrus transport is inferior to the Oppo transport, especially considering the cost.
 I’m sending the unit back to them to check it out.  It just doesn’t make sense.
@melm 
stick and stones....Just out of curiosity, what is the “quality of the musical experience “ that you missed with the Oppo compared with vinyl?  I will assume that it isn’t the joy of cleaning dust bunnies from your stylus, or the tactile pleasure of hearing the walls of the Lp groove being shredded by the sewing needle attached to the cartridge.  Is it the limited dynamic range of lp playback compared to digital that floats your boat?  Personally, if I want to listen to Music with restricted dynamic range, I opt for MP3, because at least it’s quieter.  But hey, enjoy.
@noble100 
Thank you for the kind words...at least you perceived that I was attempting to be humorous.  And I agree with you that the gift of music emerging from a silent background is something to be treasured.  Vinyl aficionados apparently prefer some of the background noise inherent to lp replay, and isn’t it great that we listeners are able to choose for ourselves which option we prefer?
@rvpiano Don’t be shocked that the Oppo bested Cyrus ( a product that I have no direct experience with).  Oppos are well engineered machines, and just because another product is more expensive doesn’t make it better. Oppos have been known to be terrific values 
Oppos are certainly terrific values for all they have to offer, 

But IMO it does many things pretty good, but nothing great. 
Someone above said the 105 is much better than the Oppo 95 which I base my experience on. 

As RV Piano has talked about, why the Cyrus transport not doing well? Not sure about the internals, but the first I do when I buy a piece of equipment is to replace the stock cord. 

I'm always amazed how much better the sound can get with a good entry level "audiophile" cord. I wouldn't spend more than $100 on the power cable, new or used. but lots out there to choose from ...
1graber2,

I’m pretty sure you have something there.
Interesting situation with the Cyrus.  I ordered it from an English store. The power cord included had a European outlet end so I couldn’t plug it into the wall. To make matters worse, the other end, the end that connects to the transport, has only two prong holes instead of the normal three.
As a solution I substituted a regular three hole plug and plugged two of the holes into the transport. The unit worked.
As you mention it, It dawns on me now that this could very well be the problem.  
The dilemma is, where do you get a two hole cable with an American outlet plug?
Anybody have a suggestion?
@rvpiano - Assuming your equipment is 115V and you live near a class-x (international) airport, purchase a converter at the small electronic stores they usually have. My best shot...
OP
You may want to consider making your own power cord for this combo.
Pretty sure you can buy a 2 pin female plug.

Just a thought
@mahler123.
 I think you may be surprised at the dynamic range of vinyl. You may find its range far exceeds digital.
Dweller,
Good idea.
But I lost the original cord when we had a fire in the music room.
I found an adapter that accommodates a three pronged plug into two prongs on Amazon.
We’ll se if that makes a difference.
The main reason I bought a 105 maybe 4 years ago was to simplify my system, and I have ~ 50 SCADs/DD-As (and growing) . I upgraded from a Parasound P3 to a P5 pre/ dac. I tried the P5 dac using a toslink and after significant break- in, I did not notice much of an improvement

About a year ago I installed an aftermarket wiring loom- silver wires to the power supply board connected to a Rhodium IEC. That was a big improvement. Later, I replaced the OEM power supply with a Linear Power Module, another big leap.

I sold the P5 the using the 105 direct to my amps: OK at best on redbook. I came across a Hattor Passive Pre XLR which was a huge improvement, though an impedance mismatch with my amps. I bought a Audio Alchemy stereo amp, but it too was a mismatch, so I bought a AA DDP-1 (DAC/PRE, but just for the preamp. Finally, the music was coming to life. 

For grins I decided to try the DDP-1 DAC using the same WireWorld Toslinkk cable: WOW

Next up was to dust off my decade+ old Pioneer PD 65 CD player, inverted platter with a Musical Concepts Stage 3 mod which included an outboard power supply: Amazing

So, the 105 now idles until I want to spin high rez discs        
“ I think you may be surprised at the dynamic range of vinyl. You may find its range far exceeds digital.”

+1 uberwaltz 
@audioconnection what is the output impedance via the balanced and unbalanced outputs for the Ayre Codex? That specification is not provided in Ayre product literature. 
People forget one important thing. Oppo cannot create a 3-dimensional stage. Based on the fact that it does not own this property. We have client who owned the 105 and 205. We could proof that they are 2D products.

This is why they sold it. When you would use it as a transport you still will keep the same stage dna. You never can go to a 3D stage.

Audio is all about sound. And sound is being founded on diffeent properties. When you want to reveal all the details and properties of the recoding. You need an audiosystem what is capable of revealing all these details and layers.

But the Oppo cannot reveal all the 8 properties, due to the fact that is lacks different properties of sound. And what is missing will never be there.
uberwaltz:

" @mahler123.
 I think you may be surprised at the dynamic range of vinyl. You may find its range far exceeds digital."

uberwaltz,
     Are you serious?  Fortunately for all of us you are trying to mislead, the actual dynamic range of vinyl vs.digital is not a matter of opinion.  The dynamic range, as well as the frequency response range and noise levels,of both formats can be and have been scientifically measured.  Digital has been proven to be superior in all 3 measurements.

     , I understand the appeal of high quality vinyl playback and have no desire or intention of discouraging its usage.  I believe everyone should listen to whatever they prefer. 
     But I also believe there is no benefit of making the obviously and scientifically verifiable false statement you made..
Tim
Tim
A quick google search reveals at least as many claims to the contrary from scientific tests as you state.

I find plenty of articles "proving" which has more dynamic range swinging both ways. And of course it also all depends on your definition of dynamic range and how you test and measure it. This is an argument that has raged for decades!

Which is why I clearly stated "may" as it all depends on which articles you decide to believe, and how you interpret dynamic range.

No I am not going to bother to post any links but your assertion that my statement is completely untrue and factless is just not correct.

IMHO of course and no I am not going to waste time getting into a debate over it either.
Not that I want to get into a debate either, but in my subjective experience, I’ve found that records have always sounded more “open” and transparent than CDs.
And, as I’ve stated, there’s very little if any background noise on a clean record.
Ideally the big advantage of the compact disc was its signal to noise ratio and dynamic range which all things being equal is much higher than what the best turntable can deliver. Let’s say 60 dB for analog and 90 dB for compact disc/player. That’s a difference of 30 dB, right. But everything is relative so when CDs are overly compressed Dynamic Range wise then it could even the playing field, it all depends though whether the record you’re comparing it to was overly compressed itself. But I tend to agree that subjectively on average to good systems records can sound more dynamic. There are also lots of Polarity issues with CDs, more than with records I suspect.
Getting back a little closer to the original subject, the three to two hole adapter that I got to enable me to connect the Cyrus to the DAC had the wrong size two-hole.  So, I’m back to the original dilemma of not being able to hook up a decent cable to the transport.
Writing to Cyrus didn’t do much good.  They, incredulously, praised the Oppo, and said the sound might be a matter of taste!
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@geoffkait +1, regarding CD dynamic range compression. That robbed much of the life of CD playback. 
@celander 
"celander343 posts08-13-2018 11:02amLet's not rehash that debate. 😂"

@geoffkait +1, regarding CD dynamic range compression. That robbed much of the life of CD playback.

Dude!! you got sucked back in!! lol


     Okay guys, I will concede that the issue of Vinyl vs.CD is complicated by the 'loudness wars' and resultant compression of dynamics that has been employed and imposed by recording engineers on the vast majority of CDs produced since about the mid 1980's.

     If this very significant compromise of CD performance caused by the recording engineers' misguided compression practices were not utilized, however,  an accurate summary of comparing vinyl to CD would be the following:

Dynamic range. The difference between the loudest and softest sounds an LP can play is about 70 decibels (dB). CDs can handle over 90 dB. In practical terms, this means that CDs have more than 10 times the dynamic range of LPs. 24-bit digital audio affords 144 db dynamic range.

Surface noise. Dust particles in the grooves of an LP cause crackles and ticks that are present and audible no matter how well you clean the record. CDs are not affected by surface noise, because they use light beams to read the musical data, which ignore any foreign substance on the disc. Besides that, vinyl records have an underlying hiss generated by the needle moving over the surface. CD and 24-bit audio have no surface noise.

Mechanical noise. Every turntable, even the most expensive, generates a low-frequency rumble that is transmitted by the stylus into the amplifier and speakers. The system has to work much harder to handle all that low-frequency energy, and that can cause distortion in other parts of the audio spectrum. Many audio systems include a rumble filter that can reduce this, but that filter also removes the lower-frequency sounds on the record, like the bottom octave of a piano, or the low tones that give a bass drum so much of its power.  CDs and 24-bit audio have zero mechanical noise.

Speed variation. Listen to a recording of a solo piano on an LP, and then on a CD. I’ll bet you can hear the difference immediately. Vinyl depends on a mechanically driven system, and any such system will introduce minute changes in the speed and pitch of playback. A vinyl record that is even slightly warped, or has a hole that is not perfectly centered, will have “wow”—slow variations in pitch. Tiny imperfections in the belts or wheels of the turntable will cause more rapid pitch changes, known as “flutter.” CD players, because they use super-accurate digital buffers, are immune to this. as are 24-bit audio players/computers.

Channel separation. On a CD, the separation between the left and right channels used in recording is over 90 dB. 24-bit audio is greater than 95 dB across the entire audio range.  On LPs, it’s 30 dB at best. That means engineers have a much narrower range to work with when they’re mixing and mastering the audio, and the result, for the listener, is that the stereo “image” is highly constricted. It’s worse at lower frequencies; a loud bass signal in one channel of a record can push the needle out of the groove, so engineers have to make sure bass frequencies are always in the center.

Continuous vs. “chopped up.” Some people believe that because digital audio “chops up” the signal into discrete numbers, it cannot carry all of the information that an analog signal does. But before the digital signal reaches our ears, it is reconstituted into a continuous analog wave. The process does filter out sounds above 20 kHz, which is the highest frequency the most acute human ears can hear. However, no phono cartridge, amplifier or speakers can reproduce those frequencies anyway. So really, nothing is taken out that affects the sound.

Longevity. Friction causes heat, which softens plastic and makes it easy to deform. This means that every time you play a record, the smallest peaks and dips—the high frequencies—soften and can literally get shaved off. The more you play it, the worse it gets. Also, whenever the needle encounters a dust particle, it gouges a hole in the soft surface, so that pop or crackle becomes permanent. By contrast, CDs and 24-bit audio files will sound the same essentially forever, unless you leave CDs on your car dashboard on a sunny day or bring a powerful magnet near a hard drive.. And you can always make as many perfect copies of them as you like.

CDs and 24-bit audio reflect exactly what the artists recorded in the studio. Vinyl distorts it. Some listeners honestly feel that the defects vinyl introduces somehow make it more attractive or “warmer.” But from any objective standpoint, there’s no justification in calling the sound of vinyl records “better.”

     Despite all of the above, however, I can still understand why many prefer listening to well cleaned vinyl lps on a good TT based system to the compromised sound of many redbook CDs.

    But digital is not limited to just the mediocre quality of MP3, AAC and redbook CD or even the higher quality SACDs.  

     I've discovered the true potential of digital is realized with music recorded directly to digital and played back as 24 bit/96khz hi-resolution or above.  The sound quality is superior to any other format I've heard.; dynamic range that actually match the wide dynamics of real live music, very accurate tonal accuracy from top to bottom and a combination of high detail levels along with virtually no background noise that enables a very stable and real sounding sound stage illusion.  

     In my experience, a minimum of 24 bit /96 khz playback of digital files that have been recorded direct to digital is required to achieve the exceptionally high quality sound I described above in my system. The more common transfers of the original analog master (typically recorded on hi-speed reel-to-reel tape) to hi-res digital format also sound very good to me.  After all, it is an exact copy of the analog master.  

     But I'm still able to discern the direct to digital recordings by their wider dynamic levels, dead quiet background levels (especially between songs but less so during songs) ,higher detail levels and a more extended treble.

     My main point is that digital has moved well beyond CD quality to high resolution digital.  I just hope recording direct to hi-res digital becomes the norm soon because we'll all benefit from that and all who wish can still enjoy their vinyl.  

Tim

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