One Amp To ‘Rule’ Them All....

brettmcee,

    Are you actually just looking for a good amp to buy?  
    If so, I think you phrased your post question in a manner that will not get you a satisfying answer.  It seems to me that you're looking for a shortcut in your search for an amp that does most things well, an understandable attempt to save time and guard against a poor choice.  
     You're obviously not going to receive a universally agreed upon named amp that is considered the best by Audiogon members.  
     If I'm correct, I suggest you just say so.  A better approach is to state your budget, room dimensions,ancillary equipment/speakers along with typical music played and preferred volume levels.

Just trying to help,
     Tim    

The only correct answer here is a Hypex NCore based amplifier. Superior measurable characteristics in terms of distortion, damping factor, efficiency, etc. while powering difficult loads down to 2ohms. Not to mention far more affordable that many suggested here... 

One amp that has a great reputation in both home hi-fi and pro studio monitoring installations is the Bryston 4B, in all it's revisions over the years.  I have an old 4B-ST, and a 4B-SST2.  Believe it or not, they each sound quite different from each other.  Which one is better depends on the speakers.  My old Matrix 801 series 2's sound better with the older 4B-ST (which I've had reconditioned by Bryston).  Now it's better than new, with new caps!  I've not heard the newest SST3 versions.

@noble100 nope I’m not looking to buy an amp. I am looking for Audiogon users, audio pros and audio consumers, to come together and define an amp by which all others can be measured. That amp does not need to be perfect, but it needs to be competent, consistent, reasonably affordable and something we all can/could/will have a chance to hear.

Like I said before, so much talk about audio reproduction is like comparing apples to asteroids. You’ve got $100,000 setups and $1,000 setups. I am not rich, but by starting to work to define our language and descriptions better it’ll be a lot easier for the masses to gain entry into audiophile land. Our descriptions will have more meaning and choices will be easier to make. 

@mirolab and @mikesfinest  Thanks guys!

Just a guess here, but has anyone looked into Lamm or Dart Zeel? I mean, let’s get real, guys and stop futzin around.

Noble100 has given the best advice. Your first answer had me on the floor laughing. Your second answer much more diplomatic and polite.
Thank you Noble100.

It just seems like people really don’t care about taking care of each other anymore...  Much easier to mock and dismiss. Fend for yourself, good luck, audition, try, buy, buy buy.... Very very comfortable spending money for the next best thing. 

Some of us are not wealthy. Some of us are audiophiles out here on our own. It is not an extravagance. It is something we simply must do. And I think it can be done way more systematically from top to bottom.

....because there are so many types of bread and ways to slice it we need at least as many knives? I think we can do better.  

And if we want this industry to grow and to support our favorite designers we constantly need to bring new people in and help to educate them. 

brettmcee:
"That amp does not need to be perfect, but it needs to be competent, consistent, reasonably affordable and something we all can/could/will have a chance to hear."

     Okay, that clarifies your question for me.

     I would say that mikesfinest23's suggestion of a Hypex NCore based class D amp is a suggestion that meets all of your criteria you mentioned above.  
    These are actually a range of amps that are the best method I'm aware of for 'the masses to gain entry into audiophileland'.   These amps have measurable performance levels that objectively equal or surpass some of the finest and most expensive solid state amps both currently and ever made. As mikesfinest23 stated: "Superior measurable characteristics in terms of distortion, damping factor, efficiency, etc. while powering difficult loads down to 2ohms. Not to mention far more affordable that many suggested here..."


     Here's a good link to learn more about Hypex NCore:

https://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/ncore/1.html

     Years ago, The Absolute Sound audio magazine defined the ideal amp as "a straight wire with gain".  This meant an amp that would take an inputted signal, amplify it faithfully without adding or subtracting anything and output this accurate signal to the speaker.  This is exactly what Hypex NCore, and several competing class D power modules, are very good at.
    The above leads to amps which have a sound quality best described as neutral.

Tim      

I am a major McIntosh fan.  While opinions differ McIntosh goes a long way back providing quality equipment.   The Greatful Dead used their equipment back in the early 70s for their “Wall of Sound”.

The produce solid equipment that holds value better than virtually all audio.  My MC501 mono blocks bought used in 2008 can be sold today for what I paid back then.  

They also make fabulous tube tube equipment as well.  Not everyone is a fan, but those who are make a strong market for much of their equipment, especially amps and preamps.

Management research has found that the best variable in estimating the probability that a firm will be in business a year from now is how long have they been in business.  For McIntosh that number is 71 years.

Just one guy’s view on Amps to rule them all.  We all have different needs, but for me, McIntosh rules them all.

I haven’t listened to a McIntosh yet in my setup. I have been very curious to hear what so many rave about.

What is a good place to start with McIntosh amps, something that can handle 1ohm loads. Right now I have Kappa 7 and 8’s and Yamaha NS-10’s available. At the moment whatever amp comes into my system needs to handle low ohms just to be safe.  I have Kappa 9’s but those things are rediculous. 

Only one answer for all these scenarios, and I’m shocked everyone is avoiding the obvious:

A pair of Psychron Master Legend Retro ES20 monoblocks

Hybrid design, switchibable, dual everything...

Not a fan  of Mcintosh amps and their autoformers, I have heard too many amps that are better.  The best amps I have ever heard on the most impressive systems are Burmester, 911 or 959's.  Recently I heard a system priced >$1M, it consisted of Wilson WAMM's and matching subs, 4 Burmester 559s sourced by a Linn Kimax.  It was absolutely magical!

For solid state, if I had the scratch, I'd go with Naim S1's. But then, that's because I am a Naim guy. There's a Parasound guy on this thread. More power to hm, so to speak. Parasound has never sounded good to me personally, though, and that's what matters, what it sounds like to you, the individual. At a certain point, subjectivity kicks in, and that's all there is left to it. Thus, there is no one amp. 

The question ignores that it is a dance between amplifier & speakers & really all other components in the chain. he analogy created is who is the best dancer of all time in & of themselves & in combination with all dance partners. Fred Astaire as extraordinary & flexible as he was is an entirely different dancer to Gene Kelly or female ones like Syd Charisse, countless ballet dancers or the more modern Bob Fosse. It's like picking the most important ingredient in a complex curry, not understanding the interaction between them all is critical.

I see you later modified the question to no longer look for something   that
"everyone can agree on as a contemporary standard" and/or
"One Amp To ‘Rule’ Them All...." 

To merely "competent". I'm not at all\clear why you should settle for only that or why "everybody's opinion greatly matters in the first place.  Thee is a definitive answer here however that will give you a genuine slice of the superlative at a reasonable price & definitely available to you.  The issue completely becomes consulting the person who can & will give you this answer.  Yourself. You're going to have to figure out what's most important to you aesthetically concerning music & recognize it when you hear it. If this is an end run to to get others to decide for you then you'll never be especially happy in audio or life. You will find what you want in direct proportion to the work you're prepare to put into it.  Something much more extraordinary for the money if you explore preowned options as well. Local ones where you can hear it especially.  It all comes down to how much you want your question answered.

     john1,
     
     Very good points.  
     BrettMcee seems to be looking for the best amps available that can handle the low and fluctuating impedance loads of his several models of Infinity Kappa speakers.  
     Why he phrased his question in such an opaque and convoluted manner continues to be a mystery to me, too.
     He is very slowly and reluctantly beating around the perimeter of his bush of a question for some unknown reason.

Tim     

Tim I am not beating around any bush. 

I’d love to hear some McIntosh gear. It’d be helpful to hear a McIntosh amp that can handle my current speakers. This is a pleasant aside to my primary goal.

My primary goal for beginning this post was: I wish to define for the whole audio community one or more common, competant, reliable, well executed, sonically comprehensive, reasonably affordable amplifiers that we can begin to use as ‘reference amplifiers’ to judge other amplifiers by. That’s it. 

I am interested in hearing the Audiogon community’s continued thoughts.

OP- you may want to start here.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/my-long-list-of-amplifiers-and-my-personal-review-of-each

Like most audiophiles seeking answers such as yours, there is mud and sludge one must go through reading all these experiences with all these amps to find some answers. This guy (who started the post above) has stated he had the opportunity and resources to do much of the work and has tried many quality amps. So it’a good read, to say the least.

Gentlemen, I am well aware of ‘the dance’ that is assembling audio reproduction gear. But we need to start somewhere and so far in my experience amplifiers are the heart and soul of any system. Speakers are a close second. Power quality is third.

And honestly, still being relatively new to serious audiophilia, ‘the dance’ seems more like a slow-motion mosh pit than any dance I’ve ever seen.

I am 44 and a professional visual FX artist. I know art. I know tech. I know some engineering. Audiophile land is a weird wild world and not always forthcoming or inviting. It’d be nice if we worked together to help each other out.

McIntosh can handle difficult loads, I have Maggies that are 4 ohm speakers and love current.  

You have to hear them as many love them and others not so much.

They typically bench test far in excess of rated power.  My MC501s are listed at 500 wpc and bench tested about 750 wpc.

The synergy between amp and speaker is important.  I hope you can hear them.  What is your amp budget and how much power do you need?

brettmcee:
"And honestly, still being relatively new to serious audiophilia, ‘the dance’ seems more like a slow-motion mosh pit than any dance I’ve ever seen."
     
Hello brettmcee,

     I think I can speak for my fellow Audiogon members and state that you're more than welcome here and we're willing and able to help you with most issues or questions you might have.
  
    What's confounding me, and perhaps others, is the roundabout way you asked about good amps for your multiple Infinity Kappa speakers. 

Never mind how and why someone, who claims to be "new to serious audiophilia", owns three different models of Kappa audiophile type speakers.  And why it took you so long to communicate that you're aim is actually to find a good amp that can handle the difficult low impedance loads of your Kappas.
     I think I'm just accustomed to posters adopting a more straight-forward approach.
     But, in an effort to help you out, I suggest we just ignore all of the above and you just transition your thread question, from this point forward, to one that is clear, concise, can be communicated in 1-2 sentences and reflects exactly what assistance you're requesting.

Thank you,
   Tim 

 


  

@noble100 

My primary goal for beginning this post was: I wish to define for the whole audio community one or more common, competant, reliable, well executed, sonically comprehensive, reasonably affordable amplifiers that we can begin to use as ‘reference amplifiers’ to judge other amplifiers by. That’s it.

I am interested in hearing the Audiogon community’s continued thoughts.

@2psyop Thanks for understanding me.

Back in the day Capitol, Columbia, Verve, Blue Note, were all using McIntosh tube gear for playback and mix downs in the studios. Some of the remasters that are using lathes to cut new lacquers are using Mac amps with the set up. I’m not saying that McIntosh are the end all amps, but that a bulk of the music from the 50’s thru the 70’s used them in the process for mastering as well.   My 2 cents.

@efort 

thanks so much for your input. I would think a lot of 60’s and 70’s production used McIntosh...moving towards Yamaha in the 1980’s.

I think we need to consider amplifiers that were used in producing much of the music we like, and speakers. 

I have three sets of speakers, I have the infinity Kappas, Yamaha NS-10’s and JBL 4312a Control Monitors. I like using studio monitors to really hear what’s going on in my system.

brettmcee,

    Your Kappas are 6 ohm nominal but can drop between 1 and 2 ohms at 90Hz and are notoriously hard to drive.  You need a high current amp that at least doubles its power from 8 ohms to 4 ohms but one that can handle loads down to 1-2 ohms is preferable.  Only a limited number of amps are capable of this.
       I'd suggest bi-amping them.  If you prefer a single amp and want McIntosh, a used McIntosh MC2500 or MC2600 would likely work well with your Kappas.  But used high current amps such as Mark Levinson, Krell, Aragon and Adcom would also work.
     I can think of some better solutions but would like to first know your budget and whether you'd want new or used.  I'd still recommend bi-amping for best results.  Some single new high current amps will drive them but would be considerably more expensive unless you're willing to limit the playback volume.

Tim 
     

no matter what amp you have the speakers are the answer.took me a few years until i found the solution.i run 3 pairs of stereo speakers, all different makes and all different size drivers on my main amp. AR..SONY..MISSION.
the more the better...dont leave any gaps in the spectrum!hooked up another amp and speakers on the variable line out from the main amp, when i power the 2nd amp up it blows the mind...4 pairs of speakers all in stereo pointing at me..JBL control 1's running max 50wrms x 2.

brettmc...do yourself a favor and find an old nad 3020 as a reference amp for your ears. wont cost you much...love them..the musical tone is awesome.
Once you have had a good listen to that please tell me your thoughts.If happy buy a power amp and have fun.its all in the preamp!  remove the links and hook up some power!

For me it was not all in the preamp. When I went passive ( Luminous Axiom Walker mod unit ), I began to hear all of my recordings for the 1st time.

I wish to define for the whole audio community one or more common, competant, reliable, well executed, sonically comprehensive, reasonably affordable amplifiers that we can begin to use as ‘reference amplifiers’ to judge other amplifiers by. That’s it.

A lot depends on what you’re trying to do.

With any amplifier its all about distortion, and not all designers consider the same distortions important.


The human ear uses the higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure; if there are higher ordered harmonics as distortion, the amp will sound brighter and harsher than real life. This is fundamental to the tubes/transistors debate.


So are you looking for a benchmark that has the lowest distortion? If so, its unlikely that amp will ever sound right- such amps tend to use large amounts of feedback to linearize the voltage response of the amp (so its output is flat on all loudspeakers) and to eliminate distortion. The problem is that the application of distortion, while suppressing a lot of distortion, adds some of its own and its all that higher ordered variety so its audible even in very small amounts.


This of course is an argument against feedback; the problem is that the spec sheets we’re all used to seeing are designed to make the product look good on paper rather than allow us to tell how it sounds! This is why we have to audition the product regardless of what the spec sheet says.


If you want to eliminate the distortion caused by feedback, you have to eliminate the feedback. This means you can’t expect flat frequency response from the amp with many loudspeakers, but OTOH since the ear often favors tonality caused by distortion over actual frequency response, this might not be so bad, especially given that no speaker is really flat in the first place.


However there is a means of dealing with this, for more seehttp://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.php

The best amplifier if you dont have a roof for the limits amount of money invested,i dont know, and nobody knows,even the guy who can afford anything...


The best amplifier at the lowest cost,I know ..My Sansui AU 7700 is one of the possible choices, 100 bucks paid, 100 other bucks to clean it and upgrade some components... Few amplifier can drive headphones or speakers,or turntables etc with so more ease and quality, it is an amp so flexible with the utmost qualities of sound of his era that to beat it on ALL counts,flexibility and sound quality, it is nearly impossible... Then absolutely not the best amplifier there is for sure, but on all count  with his used price,yes the best there is for me ...I am not even looking back...  

atmasphere,

     Thank you for an articulate summary of amps that explains some of the issues involved with amp design and, really, amp selection.
     My impression is still that brettmcee, despite his contentions otherwise,  is looking for some quick answers to a question that can only be properly answered through knowledge and the personal experience of auditioning multiple amps of various types in one's system.  Most audio enthusiasts have learned this the hard way and already know well that there's no ideal amp for every system and that choosing an amp for one's system is more complex since there are many factors that must be considered.  
     Factors such as budget, other existing system components especially speakers, room characteristics, types of music typically listened to along with typical volume levels and personal preferences in overall system sound characteristics.  
     Despite this not even being a complete list, brettmcee has only provided one of these factors to base our suggestions on.  We are told he owns multiple versions of Infinity Kappa speakers which only further complicates the issue because they're audiophile type speakers that are notoriously hard to drive and, imho, will likely perform best with bi-amplification.  
     So, brettmcee is requesting we tell him the answer to his question, "One Amp that Rules Them All?", with limited info while the likely better question, given his speakers, is 'which 2 amps are best?'  Ironic.
     But oddly I somehow still wish to help, so I'd suggest he put in some effort and search for a powerful class D amp for his bass drivers and a tube amp to drive the midrange and treble drivers that he likes the sound of.  Unfortunately, this will require him to get his rump out of his house and gain some personal knowledge and experience.
    Well, nobody said getting great system performance was going to be easy, right?

Tim 

Note that assembling an audio system by trying to get audio geeks to agree on some sort of amplification "standard" isn't a particularly good idea, as this crowd is going to display all the technical blather and subjective opining they can muster, which will likely just fog up your brain. It's what we do here. Get a high current power amp someplace and plug it in. I bet there's an audio equipment dealer someplace that sells such things, and, if you're lucky, recommend something. You can talk to the people at Audio Advisor or Music Direct to get some suggestions.

@noble100 

Tim,

I am in amplifier heaven!!! Here is the list of amplifiers I have at home right now:
Spectron Musician III mk2 (calls D designed by John Ulrich the same guy who designed my Kappas)
David Berning zh270
Balanced Audio Technology Vk-200 and VK-500 with BAT PAK
Conrad Johnson MF-2275
Electron Kinetics Eagle 2
Carver Signature Sunfire
Yamaha p2050
Yamaha p2150 
Crown XLS 1500 (x2)
Crown 1502 (x2)

This isn't some secret hunt for better amps for my Kappas. No I really am trying to ask us all to collectively come up with some amps that we can use as benchmarks for discussing in more detail the qualities elucidated by signal amplification. That's it.

There must be amplifiers in the world that work well with almost any speaker and are consistent competent performers that are also reasonably affordable. Defining some excellent examples and quite possibly some poor examples would help us all communicate better in terms of degrees about the qualities of any given amplifier in comparison to our benchmark amplifiers.  

Once we all have common frame of reference we can begin to talk in more detail about the qualities of signal amplification. We can easily say things like, "This amplifier creates a stereo image 2x as wide as our benchmark amplifier." Or "This amplifier has great damping, I'd say its about 10-20 better than our benchmark amplifier."  

Of the amplifiers I have and/or have heard, (that are reasonably affordable) I'd say these amps should be in contention for places as 'benchmark amplifiers': 

1) Carver Signature Sunfire (the inglorious everyman audiophile champ)
2) Adcom GFA 555 II (best midbass and just easy to listen to)
3) Yamaha p2150 (clean quick honest controlled)
4) Crown XLS 1500 (really a great option for beginning audiophiles!)

...the Carver might not be 'affordable' but it might already be 'the' unofficial benchmark amplifier out there in the world (again 'benchmark' meaning it elucidates all the qualities of quality amplification, is reasonably affordable, can play nice with any/all speakers, is competent and consistent). The Carver has tone, pace, quickness, some swing and some live feel, handles frequency extremes and any/all volume demands, has somewhat above average spatial qualities, it can relax and/or jump. It can feel a little thick or sluggish in the bass sometimes, but other than that, not much bad you can say about it. 

So Tim, am I making myself more clear? I want us all to try really hard to begin to compare apples to apples, although I know we all have trouble sometimes seeing the forest for the trees. 

brett mcee:
" There must be amplifiers in the world that work well with almost any speaker and are consistent competent performers that are also reasonably affordable. Defining some excellent examples and quite possibly some poor examples would help us all communicate better in terms of degrees about the qualities of any given amplifier in comparison to our benchmark amplifiers."

Hello brettmcee,

     Have you ever considered that an amp that works well with almost any speaker, is a consistent competent performer and is affordable may not even exist? 
     Even if one did exist, do you think the motley crew of knowledgeable and experienced audio junkies assembled here on Audiogon, burdened with their own firmly held audio dogmas like a gaggle of Taliban on an audio jihad, could possibly generally concur on exactly which amp that would be?
     Of course not.  Just as preposterous is expecting this unruly group of independent sonic beauty seekers to agree on benchmarks and a standard patois when discussing audio matters.  We're too busy tilting at windmills.
     I suggest your expressed goal of creating some kind of order and black and white certainty out of a chaotic shades of gray audio enthusiast diaspora will not end well and only result in frustration for all involved, myself included.

Best wishes,
   Tim

...not trying to frustrate anyone. I am very thankful for this community for all its hues and shades and even its dark corners. I love it even more for the brilliant, colorful characters you run into along the way. 

Home reproduction of audio is unlike any other pursuit. We never can go to a museum and see the way it was intended. We are responsible for reconstituting a recorded event as it suits us. And that is very, very unique in terms of 'art appreciation'.  

But it is 'frustration' that I am trying to get at, to chip away at. Gaining entry to high end audio is not easy or even friendly, sometimes it's not even fun. It's mad scientists practicing alchemy in dimmed rooms. Yet there is so much verifiable science involved. However we only apply the science as an initial hurdle and then sometimes when it suits us. Mainly we rely on 'synergies' and 'feels'. And I am fine with this for the most part because there is art in all of this as well.

I'm oddly mixed in a sense, having a Bachelor of Fine Arts and Masters of Science degrees and i do use computers (science/technology) to make animated features (art) all day long. Art and science certainly do mix and when mixed properly can make us 'feel'.

I started my deep dive into this stuff in 2009 and more intensely since 2015. I am still astonished everyday at how arbitrary and expensive it all is. I care about the health of this industry because I believe mental and spiritual improvement, (dare i say pure joy!) can be found in meditating on and experiencing excellent music as reproduced by our own hard-won 'spiritual machines'. I think more people should have access to quality audio reproduction and that it would benefit the planet.

To this end I am looking for a more direct road to audio Nirvana--not for myself but for others. I would like to make sure more people find easier entry into audiophile land. This is why I'd very much like all of you passionate audio nuts to help me define things a bit better. Lets figure out how to put some metrics to our subjective experiences. Lets see what synergies excite and concentrate certain qualities we love. 

I think it is worth while and should eventually create less frustration. 

There must be amplifiers in the world that work well with almost any speaker and are consistent competent performers that are also reasonably affordable.

There aren't.

Generally speaking, transistor amps have a hard time sounding right on ESLs because the impedance curve of an ESL isn't a map of its efficiency unlike many box speakers. Part of this has to do with the simple fact that an ESL isn't in a box :)  As a result most solid state amps sound too bright on ESLs (and they already have a reputation of sounding too bright as it is).


If brightness and harshness is a problem for you, then you are more likely to gravitate towards tube amps. Tubes tend to make less of the higher ordered harmonics that the ear uses to sense sound pressure (and this is keenly sensitive to such harmonics, throw in the Fletcher-Munson curve and you have a problem). This is why tubes and tube amplifiers are still in production 60 years after being declared 'obsolete'. It just happens that tubes obey the rules of human hearing better than transistors.

You don't have to know anything technical here- all you have to know is that tubes are still around because people want them. Before you can have a 'benchmark' amplifier, you have to solve the distortion issues that separate tubes and transistors. My advice is don't hold your breath.

Hello brettmcee,
     
     I think you have good intentions and I agree with your thought that more people should have access to quality audio reproduction and that it might even benefit the planet.

    I certainly don't want to discourage you from gaining entry into high-end audio but I disagree with you that it's difficult and unfriendly.  I'm a bit confused about your perspective since you seem to believe gaining entry is akin to joining the Freemasons.  There are no secret handshakes or passwords...….. as far as you know.  Just a dumb joke.
     There's no permission required to join our lunatic fringe, it's just making a personal decision that you'd like to listen to your music of choice in your home reproduced at the highest quality possible with the only constraints being your knowledge, experience and budget. 

     For myself, it began with a love of music and subsequent general studies course in college called something like 'A Basic Understanding of Stereo Hi-Fi and Home Music Reproduction'.  If I recall correctly, I was just trying to satisfy the number of required credit hours of general studies courses for my Bachelors Degree and it sounded more interesting to me than Orienteering.  
However, this was actually a very good class that was very informative and sparked a lifelong interest in high quality audio and later video equipment.  The class had technical aspects of how music reproduction functioned electronically and mechanically along with explanations of the relevant standardized quality specifications. But it also had artistic aspects such as the various types of music and a good quality system (loaners from the local Stereo shop) setup in the classroom for demonstrations.
     This is how I 'gained access to quality audio reproduction' and began my lifelong journey in this hobby.  Similar classes, either in person or online, are one method more people could have access to quality audio reproduction.
     You stated:       
 "To this end I am looking for a more direct road to audio Nirvana--not for myself but for others. I would like to make sure more people find easier entry into audiophile land. This is why I'd very much like all of you passionate audio nuts to help me define things a bit better. Lets figure out how to put some metrics to our subjective experiences. Lets see what synergies excite and concentrate certain qualities we love."
     I'm generally willing to assist your efforts but I'm a bit fuzzy on the scope and specifics of what you're proposing. 
     Figuring out how to put some metrics to our subjective experiences sounds like part of a mission statement for a dedicated commission that I'm not sure a retired 60 yr old guy such as myself would be highly motivated or incentivized to join, given his numerous other opportunities to continue doing whatever the heck he felt like doing whenever the heck he felt like doing it.

Tim