I'd love to hear the impressions of people who've actually spent some time with these speakers to share their sense of their plusses and minuses. Mapman here on Audiogon is a big fan, and has shared lots on them, but I'm wondering who else might be familiar with them.
Tvad makes a good point. So, Rebbi, you have already paid for the Totems and their used-market price is not going to change in a few days or weeks. So, may as well break them in fully and then evaluate them. Instead of going by initial impressions, you could do a systematic in-depth comparison, especially as you already have both speakers there and no extra trouble or expenses are involved.
I thoroughly understand your point, and it's certainly something that I thought about. Did I really give the arrow a fair shake?
Here's the thing: the Haro was kind of stressing me out. If I sat in exactly the right spot and had my head, within a few inches, in exactly the right spot, then I could begin to hear what they are capable of doing. But you know, although I used to listen to music that way when I first got into high-end audio back in the mid-19 80s (move the left speaker a quarter of an inch one way, tell in the right speaker 10° the other way...) I don't listen to music that way anymore. I just want to enjoy it. That doesn't mean that I have totally lost touch with my geek side: next week, I'm going to begin to build Bobble head Seduction phono pre-amp kit! And granted, I am sure that they would continue to improve over time.
But after playing with the Haro (even in 10 hours of listing, you can do quite a bit of futzing around) and even after realizing that tilting the speakers back a few degrees improved their sound, I hit my "life's too short for this" threshold.
I am married and have a small child. Furthermore, my listening room is right below my wife's home office. And I have a full-time job. The result of all of this is that my listening time
I thoroughly understand your point, and it's certainly something that I thought about. Did I really give the Arro's a fair shake?
Here's the thing: the Arro was kind of stressing me out. If I sat in exactly the right spot and had my head, within a few inches, in exactly the right spot, then I could begin to hear what they are capable of doing. But you know, although I used to listen to music that way when I first got into high-end audio back in the mid-1980s (move the left speaker a quarter of an inch one way, toe in the right speaker 10° the other way...) I don't listen to music that way anymore. I just want to enjoy it. That doesn't mean that I have totally lost touch with my geek side: next week, I'm going to begin to build Bottlehead Seduction phono pre-amp kit! And granted, I am sure that the Totems would continue to improve over time.
But after playing with the Arro (even in 10 hours of listening, you can do quite a bit of futzing around) and even after realizing that tilting the speakers back a few degrees improved their sound, I hit my "life's too short for this" threshold.
I am married and have a small child. Furthermore, my listening room is right below my wife's home office. And I have a full-time job. The result of all of this is that my listening time is limited and very precious, and the thought of how long it would actually take me to get to a hundred hours of usage on those speakers so that I could THEN begin to make a serious comparison with the Ohm's, is just overwhelming. In the limited time that I have to listen to music, I want to be relaxing and enjoying music, and not involved in a cognitive exercise of evaluating one speaker against another.
The thing is,the Ohm Micro Walsh Talls, with a little bit of work positioning the speakers optimally, sound much more pleasing to me "out-of-the-box" than did the Totems, and I have no reason to doubt the the MWT's will continue to improve with time. I find their presentation so seductive and pleasing that they make the want to sit down and listen to music for hours on end, without having to do a lot of futzing positioning and so forth.
So yes, I understand that I may have flushed a few hundred dollars down the toilet, but it's one of those "chalk it up to experience" things. Somebody else will get a good break on the Totem, and, good for them!
Live and learn. We've all taken some financial hits I think over the years one way or another with this hobby.
Next time, in order to mitigate the risk of potentially taking a loss, consider either buying used first (so you can sell without taking a hit if needed) or only from a vendor (like Ohm) that provides a money back guarantee if not completely satisfied.
"Jaybo, whether the Arros will dramatically change to resemble the Micro Talls or not, you must agree that 10 hours on any speaker is insufficient time on which to base a judgment on their performance."
I would agree also.
One thing I would say with certainty is that the Totems will not provide the wide sweet spot and ease of listening that the pseudo-omni Ohms do. I suspect the bass will not match the Ohms as well. Other than these two things, the two are more similar sounding than different from what I have heard.
" Well, if any of you guys want to give my arro's a good home"
Sorry, but I/m not looking to replace my Ohms.
Otherwise, for a smaller room, Arro's would be on my short list.
Rebbe, seriously, obviously only you know what satisfies you. Same with any of us. You don't have to justify your decision making process to others. All that matters is that you like where you are at and can now attain enjoyment from your system sooner rather than later.
Yeah, well I probably was getting a little defensive there.
It'll be interesting to see if the Arro's sell or not. If they don't, maybe I will break them in some more and see again how they stack up against the Ohm's
I do have to say that I can't imagine the Arro's besting the Ohm's in the soundstage dept. I thew some Diana Krall on the CD player today and it was spooky how beautifully the Ohm's rendered a "holographic" sense of things. :-) The same pieces on the Arro's, if memory serves, sounded flat by comparison...
Arro's shouldn't sound "flat". That should get better with break-in I expect.
I've heard Arro's but never a/b'ed them concurrently with Ohms.
I think the Arros should do extremely well with imaging (for a standard box design) at least at the sweet spot, but I do not think they (or any standard box design) will ever sound like the Ohms IMHO. Ohms image distinctly in their "own special way".
I have heard Arro's that were not set up optimally stack up well against larger and more expensive speakers from PSB and McIntosh that were also not set up optimally. They all sounded very good but could have sounded better with proper set-up.
I've heard other Totems set up better in the past that sounded similar to comparable Dynaudios at the time. I can honestly say that in a/b tests in my house, the Dyns, as nice as they are, cannot touch either pair of Ohms.
When I say "flat," I don't mean without dimensionality. I mean that they don't produce the sense of fullness and "air" that the Ohm's do...
Honest to goodness, I don't want to get into a discussion about whether or not I've given the Arro's a chance. I do believe that this thread will be useful to someone who's interested in the Ohm's vs. the Totem's, not as a final conclusion, but to get a sense of how they differ.
As the very least, I think I can conclude that:
1) The Ohm's sound better to me out of the box than do the Arro's, in terms of imaging, "holograpy" and bass extension. 2) The Ohm's are easier to set up than the Arro's: because of the large sweet spot, they're quite forgiving of placement, and will actually tolerate and even appreciate being fairly close to the rear wall (mine are currently only 19" out). And, although this may seem trivial, it's nice not to have to mess with floor spikes when you move the speakers around... really nice. 3) The Arro's are prettier than the Ohm's, and their fit and finish is more refined, although the Ohm's are far from bad in either regard. 4) The Ohm's present a 6 ohm load, the Arro's a 4 ohm load, for what that's worth. 5) The Arro's are around $350 more than the Ohm's.
...and, one of the most important facts, one can try the Ohms out in your own listening room risk free to hear what they bring to the table.
I think anybody looking to plunk down mega-bucks on a pair of speakers (many on this site) would be well served to try the right size Ohms first....think of the money you might save and use towards your next pair of interconnects!
Well, the Arro's didn't sell on eBay, and now I'm rather glad they didn't.
After several days of listening to the Ohm's exclusively, I set the Arro's back up for a comparison, and they sounded.... well, they sounded great: detailed, open, great bass, room filling sound, huge stage. Why?
Maybe it's because I had the spikes coupled directly to the floor rather than sitting in "saucers." Maybe it's because I had the window shades up rather than covering the windows. Whatever the reason, they sounded terrific. The Ohm's sounded a bit "muffled" in comparison.
So I'm going to do what Tvad and others have suggested and not be in such a rush to get rid of them. I'm going to take time, as long as I have both, to break in both the MWT's and the Arro's, A/B them and see which one comes out on top.
I'll continue to report back as I learn more. Stay tuned... :-)
You certainly have nothing to lose by giving the comparison more time. The Arros are very good speakers, as are all Totems I've ever heard...they are supposed to sound as you now describe them. I'm guessing using the spikes now if you weren't before would make a big difference.
Have you done the sand filling thing yet? I would expect that to help as well.
I was using the spikes before (attached to the plinth) but the spikes were sitting in these little metal "saucers" that I got from the Totem dealer to protect the hardwood floors in the listening room from being damaged by the spikes. Now the spike points are sitting directly on the floor.
Also, I played them with the window shades up rather than down (the listening room has windows on three of its walls). I always assumed that things would sound better with the window shades covering the windows and dampening the room, but maybe that's not so.
By the way, in your experience, hoe does the sound of the Ohm's change as they break in? John at Ohm told me they can take 60 to 100 hours to fully break in.
In general I think they "open up" further in terms of weight and impact and become more "natural sounding" and detailed in particular through the mid range covered by the Walsh style driver.
Yes, it does apply similarly to most cone speakers without a doubt. Some drivers take longer than others to "break in" physically or equivalently "open up" sonically, that's all.
In the case of Ohms larger drivers take more time than smaller ones.
I think what has been said in this thread earlier about the Ohm's not having a typical "Hi-Fi" sound is very true. When I was looking at speakers I auditioned the Arros and thought they were a very nice speaker. To me they seemed a bit bright. Loudness and brightness can often be linked to "detailed" or "better". Each speaker will definitely have a different sound and only you can determine which is better for your needs. The one thing that always impresses me about Ohm's is how close they come to making vocals sound like the real thing. But one thing that impressed me about the Arros was the "punch" they seemed to give on certain things like drums. Right now you are picking up on differences. Just as you did when you took the Arros out and placed the Ohms in your system. If you were to sit with the Arros for a few weeks and put the Ohm's back I think you'd post the same type of reaction on differences you hear :)
One thing you should do is play around and get the best placement for each speaker. Also, listen to a variety of music that you care about. I've never understood how some audiophiles can tailor what they listening to based on the system they have. Your system should be able to play the music you enjoy in a way you enjoy hearing it. Good luck and keep us posted on your thoughts!
Rebbi - You may want to try the Totem Claws instead of spikes for your Arros. Your speakers would then sit on 3 large ballbearings. A friend of mine used these on his Arros sitting on hardwood floor and made a significant improvement. Tightened up the bass and soundstage widened.
Biz07, Thanks for the comments. I think that what I'm going to do is a alternate between the Ohm's and Arro's, maybe a week on, a week off. Of course, the unreliability of sonic memory being as it is, it'll be an interesting experience.
Smholl,
Interesting suggestion with the claws... I think I've seen them cheap on eBay.
Just ordered a pair of 100s as recommended by John. They should arrive in 2-3 weeks and will go into rotation with my Parsifal Encores and Merlin VSMs (and ocassionally Zingali Overture 3s). I've heard the MBLs a bunch of times and loved the "staging", but couldn't abide the tonal balance. I'm really eager to sit down with these speakers and see how they compare with the horns, equalized dynamics, and modular systems I use now.
Shy of adding planars (my preferred choice, Soundlab, is too big), non-'Stat single driver systems (maybe one day), or DSP room corrected systems (just a matter of time), I guess I'm getting close to covering all loudspeaker design bases. I'll report back when the Ohms get here. Thanks for the help, everyone.
ohms just get better with time for sure. dynamic impact, detail, etc. the longer you live with them, the more you'll appreciate their ease with pretty much any style and size of music.
John at Ohm told me that both the 100s and the Micro Talls work best at 2' from the front wall - the former for far field listening at greater SPLs, and the latter for nearfield at more modest levels.
I started with mine about 3 feet from the rear wall and they didn't sound that great: the soundstage was attenuated and the bass was indistinct. I gradually inched them backward toward the rear wall, and at about 18" out, everything snapped into place. The room filled with music (in that distinctive "Ohm way"), the imaging came into focus and the bass response popped. I know that the CLS driver is designed so as to damp the sound that would normally come from the rear of the driver toward the wall, making near-wall placement much more feasible, but you still have to mess with them. But when they're placed properly, as Mapman says, "Bingo!", you know it. :-)
"John at Ohm told me that both the 100s and the Micro Talls work best at 2' from the front wall - the former for far field listening at greater SPLs, and the latter for nearfield at more modest levels"
Makes sense.
Smaller drivers will be more challenged to produce higher SPLs at a distance, which is why the larger models are designed for larger rooms.
I've had both my 100's and my Walsh 5s in my main but small 12'X 12' listening room in more of a near-field scenario. The larger drivers added little or no value there. The smaller drivers actually sounded better in that they fit the room better and had more room to "breathe".
The level adjustments on the Walsh 5's specifically were useful, but one might accomplish similar adjustments just as effectively with a good control pre-amp.
In my largest room, the 100s hold their own very well but the 5's deliver a performance of larger scale and impact to better fill the larger room.
What size room would be OK for the Talls? My room is 15x24 with a vaulted ceiling, would that be OK? I have not heard Ohm Walsh speakers, but the information here has me wanting to. I am looking for a warm, smooth, listen- all-day type of speaker that sounds good in a variety of sitting positions. Might have to try them.
You should talk to John, but I'd guess he's going to suggest 100s. If you're more than 15' from the plane of the speakers, the Talls are not recommended.
Just letting everybody know that I haven't disappeared. I went back to the Ohm's from the Arro's last week, and I've been tweaking their positioning for best sound. I'll post another progress report soon.
By the way, can any of you suggest some good sounding orchestral CD's to throw at the Ohm's? Some stuff that's easy to get your hands on?
I had an amazing experience with the Ohm's this morning. Had a few minutes to listen to some music and threw Steely Dan's "Gaucho" (a favorite) into the CD player. I remember when this album first came out on vinyl in 1980 and I've listened to it countless times since then.
Trite as this sounds, it was a revelation on the Ohm's... I heard detail and "air" and smoothness that I've never experienced before. Vocals floated in the air and Donald Fagen sounded amazing. It's hard to describe but it was just thrilling.
Its funny that I listened to a good mastering of "Gaucho" on CD on a pair of Quad electrostats at a local dealer when I was auditioning speakers prior to getting the newer Ohms and it was one of those 10/10 golden listening experiences where I said "this sounds perfect...it can't get any better than this".
Unfortunately, I only have an old home made cassette recording of Gaucho at home, so I have not been able to try to reproduce the same results there.
The $11,000 Quads were my reference listening experience though at the time when I decided to go with the newer Ohms for a chance to match the experience at less than half the cost.
Rebbi - You've been pulling out lots of great recordings - it is a great feeling when you get the most out of them. Since these conversations on the Ohms began, I've been listening to my speakers with a more critical ear again, also pulling out older recordings. I must say that these speakers have saved me from having to spend money every year in search for something better. I usually grow tired of something after a very short time, but after 4 years, these MT's keep delivering the goods.
Any updates? I am very interested in the Ohm's, and have my eyes set on the 100-S3's. I've noticed that some people rave about them, and then ultimately choose something else.
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