Sunny,
The basic OHM CLS design has not changed much over the years. All including gen 1 from early 80's play as loud or louder than most anything else at comparable price I would say. I have used them outdoors for parties with listeners 50-100 yards away off 80 watt tandberg receiver and it went loud and clear with illusion of live music. I have never heard OHm walsh speakers be the bottleneck in terms of ability to go loud. Bigger models need more power and are capable of going louder with more bass extension, which is where the increased power demands comes in. Larger drivers are needed to go louder without compression and larger cabinets to go lower in most any speaker design. OHMs have this aspect nailed, few speakers do it better.
Tonal balance and detail has improved over teh years but the inherent design has not.
Omnis have a lot of advantages but most people are not used to them. Not all omnis are created equal. Walsh drivers have unique advantages. OHM has figured out how to do them well and keep it affordable. There is no better design for delivering the illusion of a live performance in ones home for reasonable cost IMHO. In my opinion, Lincoln Walsh got dynamic drivers right and most of the rest of the world works with a handicap accordingly. Of course, that is just my opinion. Most people are perfectly happy with traditional dynamic speaker designs. I like many myself, but always end up levitating back to the Walsh speakers. |
Great thread!! However, there are about few major reviews about the Micro Walsh Talls speakers; Jeff Torgay claims the speakers can not play very loud even with a lot of power. John Potis of 6 Moons claims they have good bass and will play acceptably loud even in a medium-sized room. Both these reviews are old and dated. In addition, I never thought the "large speaker large room", and its converse theory makes much sense, when the key to a great speaker is whether it is accurate, transparent and draws the listener into the music. Lastly, if omni-directional speakers offer many benefits, why don't more audio manufacturers make them. |
Over the past several years I've used an ARC VT 130se, Cary 805, Prima Luna monos, Bel Canto integrated, Pathos integrated, and one or two others with the Ohms. Given that I've also rolled a half dozen different output tubes thru the PL (kt 66 being my favorite with the Ohms), I feel like there's been adequate variety in the speakers' diet. Different flavors from each amp, but the Onkyo is certainly acquitting itself well.
Marty |
Not sure the vintage of that Onkyo specifically but similar vintage Onkyo amps I recall from late 70's Tech Hifi days were some of the better ones out there in the day and the looks speak for themselves. Have never heard them on modern OHMs, but how could it not sound really good, especially with separate powered subs to help carry the load? |
Nice to hear, Marty. Those Onkyo power amps are pretty sexy looking. What are some of the other amps you use? |
Because I use an Onkyo pre-pro (Audyssey) with my Ohm 100/twin Rythmik subwoofer system, I recently got hold of an old Onkyo 508 amp, cheap. It's a very cool looking beast (large illuminated meters) and provides 250ish wpc to the Ohms. (I had the amps re-capped, due to their age - it was still cheap after the surgery.) They sound glorious.
I'll continue to rotate amps thru the system because it's fun, but the Onkyo/Onkyo como has proven surprisingly satisfying.
Marty |
You are spot-on, Mapman. I have indeed crossed over, and my conscience will not rest until I can feed my Ohms properly. |
"but all I can think about is how good the 2000s sounded with those 500 watters."
Bond, I fear you have crossed into the dark side and there is no turning back... :^) |
Ultimatezap: Congrats! I, too, have a big screen - a 55" plasma, mounted behind and between my Ohms. I had thought about a curtain for them, but based on the sound I am getting, and on Mapman's comments, I am going to leave it be. Before the Ohms, I had put up a good number of acoustic foam panels on the plane of the Ohm cans on the side and front walls. But I also felt it was a litle too dead, and have removed some of them. I do have the Ohms toed in slightly, which for the Walsh series actually attenuates the tweeter output at the listening position. It is a tad warmer than neutral, but I prefer it that way.
As for the phase issues, you could leave it alone, but make sure it only the terminals that are switched. Make sure the Walsh driver and tweeter are not wired out of phase with each other (I couldn't tell you how to do this, however).
Blueranger - Ugh. Another Ohm Walsh owner, like Mapman, reinforcing the need for serious wattage with the Ohms. As you may have read, I recently tried 500 watt class D monoblocks with my 2000s, and I absolutely agree with you. Unfortunately, I can't afford a new amp. I still enjoy listening, but all I can think about is how good the 2000s sounded with those 500 watters. Dang! |
If you want to hear drum attacks, I just purchased a Japenese import of a remastered Who "Quadrophenia" on SACD. It's unbelievably good on the 5000's. Since I just heard the Who last month play their Quadrophenia live (with a very competent substitute drummer), I could compare that with the Ohm's. They are just as good as the live, and I have my kitchen and bar nearby! |
Blue,
I like reading detailed posts such as yours. Just think about using paragraphs - it makes reading a bit easier.
Some good info in your first 03-08 post. |
Another example where the 5000's strut there stuff is on Jack and Diane by J Melloncamp. The middle part with drum solo just jumps out at you and can be very dramatic. |
I also think a out how much these would cost retail if I had purchased them at a hi end audio salon????? TOTL 5000's listed on Ohms website for $6500 last year. I'm guessing twice that if I couldn't buy direct!! What do you think? I also used transparent audio speaker cables with the metal box. I've tried kimber 8tc and they sounded thin. I even put them in cable cooker for 3 days. The bryston and transparent have good synergy. Mike |
"The 5000's through a huge soundstage and take control of the room with live listening levels."
For me, that's the pinnacle of "high end audio"
Lots of speakers can do most of the other stuff well. Its a lot harder to do it at a scale that sounds real. Nothing does it better than OHMs for a price that the average person might afford. That's a tribute to John Strohbeen and his inherent "blue collar" mentality when it comes to his business. |
Living with my OHM 5000's for 9 months Im continually amazed by them. Last month me and my girfriend put up 4 sound blankets, 4 48X24 sound panels. Closed off 2 entries to rooms with doors. Moved a piano, wood table and glass vases and lamps out. After doing this the sound smoothed out on some edgier recordings. But recordings that were well engineered to begin with sounded somewhat better. I had a bright room to begin with. 2 giant windows behind me. Me and my girlfriend look forward to each and every listening session. The 5000's through a huge soundstage and take control of the room with live listening levels. I had OHM I's conventional speakers for years and could not get used to a regular box speaker. The I's had 3 drivers on top and thru a large sound stage. Tried the much touted PSBs stratus golds but sold them and kept I's. Last year traded I's in for 5000's and couldnt be happier. They take a lot of power to sound best. 350 watt Bryston 4BSST was not quite enough power for my tastes. Got a Bryston 600 watt 14BSST and they really opened up dynamically. If the start of a song is really loud it can startle me even though I know its coming! The start of "Hey You" by BTU (record) or "Big Money" by Rush (CD) for examples. They are very quick. And like mapman says they show drum attacks really well that come after a softer passage. Example "Someone Saved My Life Tonight" by Elton John (record). My girlfriend likes the looks of them too. |
Polarin. Nice stat! Go OHM! |
Just noticed this thread hit 1700 posts! That is nearly 10% of all the posts in the entire speaker section, unreal. |
"It's loud, but we can talk to each other without really raising our voices."
That's a very good omen!!! |
I have found that I had my room treated for Merlins, so I had damped the room a bit (to offset their "personailty")... I found as I removed some of the Echotunes/roomtunes/cornertunes devices, that live sound returned, that air returned, while still keeping that quad/stat cohesiveness to the huge stage... Also removing some of the roomtunes helped the 2c3d thing to "pop" into place. The only room treatments left, are those in the lower half of the rear wall corners, BELOW the Ohm canister - I found any room treatments above the canister to damp things down too much here.
Also, like others in this thread have mentioned, I have the speakers level, and level with each other. Makes a big difference here with the 2C3D thing also. Getting the canisters to fire at the same angle and height. All walls just melt, with my Ohm's 6-7 feet apart, firing straight out into room, 3' from side walls, pulled well out from rear walls (using the Cardas method for speaker placement), 11' to listening position (good sized room).
Like Ultimatezap found, just a huge stage. and I have found I cannot make them sound un-musical - and even when crazy loud on big symphonies or metal, you can still hear the person next to you.
|
I am second day in, (32 hrs), and they are staying. Fantastic. The wife agrees. So, covered on both ends. She's off to grab a CD that she wants to hear. Inception in right now. Pirates earlier, plus Aja Steely, Tori Amos, Sherlock Holmes. Doesn't matter. It's all huge and enveloping. It's loud, but we can talk to each other without really raising our voices. Centered when needed, but big, wide.
I've moved them closer and out. Me like. |
Thanks Map. I'll be livening up the room this week. I'll talk to John, but I think it's just a black red binding post issue. Things came right into focus when I swapped wires, and nothing else changed. A good start, and it only gets better as things settle in, right? |
Ult,
In general, the ohms might be worth a try a tad closer to the rear and side walls than otherwise if the walls are more acoustically damped. Sounds like you are on the right track though.
My 5s sit about 4 to 5 feet out from the rear wall which has a doublesliding glass door with vertical blinds behind them. Walls are standard drywall with 2 foot square acoustic panels at prime side wall reflection points, speakers also 3 feet or so from sidewalls. They fire down the length of my L shaped room, about 34 feet long. I often prefer opening the verticals and exposing the glass doors. No bad effects as many might fear in general.
I'd let john know if you think the speakers are not wired as they should beand see what he says. |
Well now. Discovered one little trouble that, when remedied, has helped tremendously. Setting up the HT, Audyssey shows, "Front L out of phase". Huh. Wired em up just like my old ones. Double checked. Swapped red and black on FL, and BAM Baby. There's my center. And my bass!
If red is right on each speaker connection, then they wired the left out-of- phase. No biggie. I can definitely wrap my head around this! Four hours and counting. |
They. Are. Here. Black 300-5000's.
First bit. I do not possess the degree advanced enough that would allow me to repack these puppies, so I hope they work out. Nice UPS guy, but I'm very glad these things come packed as they do. It really is Russian nesting dolls.
Second, HUGE sound stage, but can't get the middle locked right now. I know I have some work to do. I know the sound will change as they break in, but I don't think the presentation will change very much. I could be wrong there.
Speakers are in a fairly dead room, with 3/16 felt, in undulating waves, to 25 feet from the front wall, room is 31 feet deep total. Right speak is 3 feet from right wall and 7 from front. Left is 2 feet from left wall and 4 from front, due to equipment rack behind it. Speaks are 7 feet apart and ten feet to where my head is when I listen. All measurements are within a couple of inches either way of stated, to speaker center. Oh, there is a 65' DLP between them, flush with the rear of the speakers.
Tough room, eh?
So... Get rid of waves in the felt for some more reflectivity? Speakers wider? Me further? More of an equilateral triangle? Speakers more in front of TV to bounce sound? Maybe some more time to acclimate?
Wow, listening to Conan the Barbarian soundtrack, original movie, new recording by the Prague Philharmonic. If you guys don't know this, you must try it.
I think I'm going to like these! |
"As to the NHT's, they are a bit bright"
Well, gotta say that is one thing I have never attributed to anything designed by John Strohbeen.
I run Dynaudio Contour 1.3 mkII monitors off the same system as my OHMs. Only difference other than speakers is the room and I am able to utilize better speaker wires there in that my gear including amp also resides in that room.
I would not call the Dynaudios bright, but the sound is night and day way more forward and hotter than either OHM Walshes in my other rooms. The OHMs connect via in-wall speaker wires I had put in when the house was built to enable speakers off my system in multiple rooms.
A lot (a whole lot) is really amp (and room acoustics) dependent. With my prior amps, I noticed little tonal difference between Dynaudio and OHM, other than low end extension perhaps. With the Bel Canto ref1000ms pushing both to their max, I think more of the individual unique character of each speaker design comes out.
With prior amps, I would have said my Triangles were the "brightest or hottest" sounding. Now, I run those on different system better geared towards those, and the Dyns are clearly teh most unique tonally. |
A couple of years ago I acquired a mint and beautiful pair of mahogany NHT 2.5's that I was very stoked about, even the wife thought they at least looked better than my beloved NLA's. However, I was very disapointed that I could not get them to sound cohesive at all, with the side firing woofers the bass always sounded detached and rubbery to me.
I was really bummed, I had owned Super Zero's and One's in the past and really loved the "house" sound of those NHT's but the 2.5's were an entirely different beast, one that I was unable to tame.
I realize I probably wasn't driving them with a big enough amp (only 100 watts) but I just couldn't get them to sound acceptable and I wasn't in a position to start upgrading my amp and such so I grudgingly sold em' here on A'gon.
I lived with the NLA's until about 4 months ago when I grabbed a pristine pair of Ohm Walsh 3's and all I can say is WOW. This is what a music lovers speaker sounds like, full rich sound everywhere in the room. Perhaps the best compliment I can give them is they have made me completely forget about my audio equipment and simply enjoy the music (or movie soundtrack) that so beautifully flows from these simple towers. I can't imagine how much better the newer versions of these must sound and I know at some point I will probably upgrade but these 25 year old speakers still sound so good it'll have to wait. Welcome to the club Ultimatezap!!! |
Thank you, Gents. I apologize for my brief previous rant.
UPS shows Tuesday as delivery day for the Ohms. Yippee!! We've got so much snow around that I hope UPS ventures out.
As to the NHT's, they are a bit bright, so I'll have to get used to a sound that might at first strike me as slightly muted or dull. This is where I hope that the 30 minute auditory memory window really is true!
I'll keep you guys posted. |
Haven't heard NHT in a while but from my recollection, they have a different tonality than OHM, more like the French Triangle speakers that I also listen to and enjoy regularly on my "other" system. |
Sorry about that, Ultimatezap. At least you will have something to keep you busy until you get back to work.
BTW, I neglected to mention, about 11 years ago, I sold NHT at a regional audio-video store. I always liked the NHTs, and frankly, they were the best sounding (if not the most expensive) brand we sold. But, I do recall very well those metal dome tweeters. With the mediocre AVRs and amps we had on hand, these tweets were displayed in all of their harsh, bright, ragged glory. If any of that has ever bothered you about your NHTs, you're in for a treat. |
Zap,
Sorry to hear that!
Keep us all posted and let us know if we can help with the speaker situation at least. Cheers! |
Well, I've ordered the 300-5000's! Ready to go, should be shipped tomorrow and I'll receive mid next week. Excited. Worried. Heck, I have not listened to anything except my NHT'S in about thirteen years! No audio shows or clubs. No auditions at high end stores. I'm figuring out how to reconfigure my room, as John said it's likely a bit too dead the way I have it set up. Should be fun, right? This thread is incredible!! I'll let you know. Oh, today I learned that I'll likely be furloughed. So. Awesome. No pay raise in four years, and now a pay cut. Excellent. Thank you Sir, may I have another! Sorry guys, had to spout. |
Bond,
Yep, ref1000m still current model. It has had good longevity and I can vouch for why.
Other BC amps like ref500m use next generation, newer Icepower modules though from what I recall.
Have not heard newer D-Sonic amps but they have potential to be game changers, from what I read, even with tube pre-amps, which was not the case with their earlier Icepower based products. |
Mapman - Agreed. I know that the number of watts per dollar is not the only, nor the most important, aspect of a power amp. But I am very curious about the D-Sonic amps. These have massive power, and at least one very good review in the audio press. Can't do anything now. Tuition bills up to my eyeballs. BTW, are the ref1000m amps the current BC model? |
Hey fella's - just pointing out, to have a another of a select few, Blue Circle BM2 speaker owner's out there... There is a pair listed from that late BC dealers estate on usa Audio. mart right now. Just sayin :) (no affiliation what so ever to the seller or estate - just a happy Ohm owner is all!) |
Bond,
Not all 300w+ amps are created equal.
With my newer OHMs, I started with a 300w/ch + Carver m4.0t amplifier. Its designed to sound like a tube amp and not particularly beefy/ high current for that wattage. Went plenty loud, but the low end tonal balance was lacking. THen a 120w/ch musical fidelity A3CR. Better overall up to moderately high volumes, but still not the cat's meow. Then teh BC ref1000m Class Ds. MEow!! |
Ultimatezap: I rarely come up from the man cave! I think my kids miss me, but the wife, not so much. You can try to organize an audio club if you want. Start small with meetings every other month. Food is always a good way to attract people. You might be surprised what might happen if you post on the Audio Club section that you would like to organize a local club.
Mapman - Yes, the NJ Audio Society is fantastic. (Disclaimer - I am the meetings chairman.) The $60 in dues I pay each year are the best 60 bucks I spend on audio. Our activities range from just listening to great music on people's systems to having special guests, like musicians, recording engineers, conductors, hifi equipment and speaker designers, and even antique audio themed meetings. We have over 70 members, with systems that range from entry-level to six-figures. In the four years I have been in the club, I've heard many great systems, some not so great, and been exposed to all kinds of great music. Last year, we had an official from the Edison Museum demonstrate a wax cylinder recorder and player, complete with a concert violinist and piano player, while also recording the performance on reel-to-reel and digital recorders. Last month, VPI, the turntable and LP cleaner people, invited us in to their factory/showroom. It was incredible.
BTW, I have to return those Class D amps today. Depression has set in. My old amp will never do it for me again. I got to save for that monster amplifier. Those extra 350 watts/side made a huge difference, for the better. |
I agree, an audio club would be great. Anyone near Kansas City? The closest I've come is some work buddies that come up for a listen, or more frequently, a movie. Felt pretty good (after the initial, "whaaaat?") when one of them said," Nope, I could never have this."
I was a bit crestfallen when I asked him why.
He said, "Because I'd never come out of my basement!"
It's all about perspective and what we get used to.
I'm not looking forward to the break-in. Okay, maybe a little. But ultimately, the result.
I will keep reading and searching.
Thanks guys. |
BOndman,
That's neat that you have an audio club in your parts. |
Ultimatezap - I can't help you with the speaker comparisons, but I will caution you regarding the Ohms: Allow plenty of break-in time. If you've read this thread, then you you should have a rough idea of what to expect as the Walsh drivers break in. That said, enjoy! I think you'll be quite pleased.
As for Porcupine Tree, I agree, Deadwing is the best, although In Absentia is also a favorite. I played "Arriving Somewhere..." at my audio club meeting this past Sunday. Except for the hard-core classical and jazz buffs, I got a lot of compliments, and several people asked to see the CD so they could go home and buy it (or download it). |
Hello, Mapman. Thank you very much for your response. I called John just a few minutes ago and he's setting up some 300-5000's for me, the older cabinets and the newest drivers. I figure some adjustability should help me get things right. So... In a month or so, I'll be part of the fold! I really hope I like the sound, and I'm cautiously optimistic, though I know it may take me a bit to get my head wrapped around the new sound presentation. I imagine I'll be playing with placement and room treatment for some time, but I'm really looking forward to it. First new speakers in more than a dozen years!
I have quite a bit reading to do.
As to more Porcupine Tree, I think my "new music" budget has been seriously curtailed for a bit!
James |
Ult,
I think you have a lot of options with your gear, particularly that amp, OHM included.
I think your listening room/acoustics and listening habits may be the thing to determine the best solution.
One thing very unique about the OHM line is how it scales up and down based on room size.
Emerald physics is most different from the other two. It relies on digital equalization as I recall. That could provide a lot of flexibility to deal with room acoustics compared to many alternatives. I recall they are open baffle but use more conventional directional drivers, which might result in a smaller sweet spot for listening compared to omnis.
Decware design is more variable from model to model with their more omni designs it seems. Haven't heard them so cannot compare meaningfully, but I do like the line a lot, especially for products that are designed more around tube amp technology. OHM is not so much nor is Emerald Physics, but your high power hybrid amp would seem to put you in a good place to have options.
Glad you liked "Deadwing". Its still my favorite PT album overall, though FOABP is up there two, though a much harder listen. |
I forgot to mention that I spoke with John at Ohm, and it really is as you guys say: he is very interested, personal, and seems like he'll go the extra mile for you. I think the Emeralds are mail order from one dealer, based in Hawaii. That gives me just a little pause as well. I really seam to be pointing myself towards the Ohms! Still, anyone who has heard both care to comment?
Thank you!
James |
Hello all. I've read this thread all of the way through, and d have really enjoyed it! A person can learn about all sorts of things. Speakers themselves, electronics, room treatment, and music, to name the most obvious.
Here's where I am: 13 year old NHT 2.9's that have served me well, but aren't doing it for me any more. I went from NHT 2.5's to the bigger brothers, so have lived with NHT sound for almost twenty years.
I am looking at speakers in two completely different directions. Either the Ohm or Decware omnis, or an active system like the Emerald Physics. My electronics are digital, a modded Pioneer DVAX10, one of the first all-format players, ARC LS-16 pre, and ARC HD-220 hybrid amp. I think I've got electronics covered either way, so...
Has anyone listened to these two speakers side by side? They will do double duty as HT speakers as well, and that gives me some pause when it comes to getting a matching center with the Emeralds.
I've made about a dozen CD purchases while reading this thread, my favorite is Porcupine Tree, Deadwing. Really great! |
The D Sonics and the Wyred 4 Sound Class D amps seem to be the most high value in terms of watts/dollar when looking at 500 watts/channel. The Arions I am now borrowing, IIRC, are priced at $4500/pr, with the tube hybrid version priced at $6K/pr. The other well-regarded Class D amps are also pricey, like the Merrill Audio and the Bel Canto. As I said though, I am not ready to pronounce Class D as the winner. Therefore, I am also considering more traditional high wattage amps, like a McIntosh (used) or the Sanders MagTech. The Sanders, in particular, are competitively priced with the Class D amps under consideration. Well, all moot. Who knows what will be available, and at what price, when I finally have the wood to drop on a new amp? |
The newer d sonics seem to have a lot going for them. Have not heard but really want to. |
Now you guys have me thinking I should try bigger badder amps! I've only heard one class d amp in my system, the PS Audio Trio, which doesn't compare sonically to my Odyssey Cyclops. Anyone have experience with (or thoughts on) the new D-Sonic amps? I understand they no longer use the ice modules. I'm curious. |
Underdriven Ohms sound like This. Not Bad. But maxed out OHMS sound like This. Much better! |
Bond,
I've run my 100's of my 180w/ch Tube Audio Design Hibachi amps in a somewhat large room and know things are not 100% there at higher volumes because I know what my 5s running of the 500w/ch Class Ds sound like.
I used the TADs to fill in for the BCs when I had to sen done of the BCs in for some work. The performance was very respectable but still fell short of near perfection at higher volumes in comparison, which is pretty much what I expected.
MAX OUT YOUR OHMS FIRST! That's an easy, affordable and happy path to audio nirvana for many I would sugest. |
Bondman,
Welcome to the dark side! :-) |
Well - Props to Mapman and other Ohm Walsh owners who have stressed the importance of sufficient wattage. I had the opportunity to borrow from Mike Kalellis, of MK Audio, a pair of his Arion monoblock amps (not the tube hybrid model, but the standard Class D model). These are Class D amps rated at 500 watts per channel. Honestly, I did not think that my Odyssey Audio HT3 (with cap upgrade), at 150 watts per channel, could ever be a bottleneck in my system, especially since I cross over the Ohms to powered subs at 80Hz (1st order slope). But, there you are. As they say in the automotive world, there is no replacement for displacement. With the Arions powering the Walsh 2000s, most of the objectionable things I was aware of at high volumes are gone. I had thought these were acoustics-related, but nearly all of these things, which made high-SPL listening less appealing than moderate volumes, vanished. I also note better depth in the soundstage, more dynamic oomph, and overall, cleaner sound. These are not perfect amplifiers, and I have yet to decide how I feel about the Class D presentation, even as well executed as it is in the Arions. But I now know for sure that the Ohms really do thrive on big-power amplifiers. Oh well, no money for an upgrade now, but I know what I will have to do eventually. |
