Coot, while I do admit that I am extremely fond of Ncore technology, and a well broken-in Ncore NC1200 amp seems completely incapable of producing nasty jaggies in multi-part high strings, class D amplifiers tend to take a long time to break in.... In my experience 1,000 hours for Ncore-based Merrill Veritas, 600 hours for Icepower1000ASP-Based Bel Canto REF1000M, and 1200 hours for Rowland M312 based on the same ICEpower 100ASP module. Before a class D power amp is well stabilized, it has the uncharming propensity of going into periodic funks.... shrill one moment, saggy and lifeless another moment. The 100 hours mark seems to be just the beginning of the typical class D wild ride.
I have no experience with D-Sonics amps, but I suspect that around the 100 hours mark they may be still very young and raw kittens, and may be deserving of some audiophilic patience.
Regards, Guido |
Ncore-12 may be a good solution. I have not heard one and can't afford $12k anyway. |
Probably worth saying that if there is still an "achilles heel" to any extent with Class D amps, the top end is probably where it will be. Similar to what is often discussed with digital versus analog, but not exactly the same in a technical sense.
I have been most happy with the top end of my BC amps, but I would speculate that it is the one area that might compare less favorably to other amp types in more cases at present. I think the technology is fairly mature at this point but still has room to improve and will. That drives my interest in newer designs when they come out.
My ears were much more sensitive to higher audible frequencies when they were much younger as well. That is also undoubtedly a factor. Not all ears are equally sensitive in the same ways. Yet another reason why individual mileage will always vary. |
Mamboni is a classical musician and OHm Walsh affectionado that at last report was very happy with Wyred4Sound Class D. It was his experience that helped peak my Class D amp/OHM interest. I opted to splurge on the BCs rather than "cur corners" with Wyred. They both use similar Ice Power amp modules and custom input stages with higher input impedance for better match to tube pre-amps. BC adds a custom power supply board. Power supplies are traditionally the weak link in many stock Class D amp modules. Different vendors do their own thing there to achieve performance improvements.
Bond, I always found your clipping issue as described somewhat puzzling, but use with power filters as the culprit for clipping for reasons mentioned above does not surprise me. Glad its resolved. |
Wow. Thanks, Coot. That's the first negative experience I have read with the D-Sonics. And, the ONLY experience I have read abouit with D-Sonics feeding Ohms. The posts regarding power filters vs. plugging into the wall cannot be stressed enough. I am still evaluating, but it appears that my amp clipping issues (see earlier posts) were mostly the result of two different power filters the amp had been plugged into. With my current amp (Odyssey Audio Stratos HT3 w/cap upgrade) plugged into the wall, most of the clipping issues seem to have dissappeared. Also, the soundstage presentation has widened out a bit. Good thing, too, since I won't be able to do any upgrading for a while.
If you want good Class D amps that worked very well with my Ohm 2000s, I suggest the Arion RS-500. Pricey (~$4K/pr), but I think they are less expensive than new Bel Cantos. |
Yes, OHMs and shrillness are not a natural match, but I have heard a big difference top to bottom with different amps so amp is always a big factor.
I guess the lesson learned is Class D is not always a slam dunk with OHMs, for whatever reason.
I find ICs from source to pre and especially pre to amp can also make a very significant difference. I've switched between DNM Reson and MIT TErminator. DNMs have more etched detail through mids and highs, which I like with the OHMs. MITs are smoother/more rounded there and add more to the low end. Room acoustics and personal preference would probably be the largest factors in choosing. |
Coot .. as I'm sure you are aware, the W4S amps have garnered much praise in their latest iteration. Just thinking out loud here but perhaps you should consider them as well in the future. The synergy offered by using products from the same company can be compelling. Congrats on the new DAC. |
Coot, thanks for your honest opinion. To hear shrillness coming from your Ohm speakers really did concern me because Ohms have a very mild manner tweeter. I'm shock but appreciate the heads up. |
Final report on d-sonic M3-1500s. To make it short - They're going back. After 100+ hrs, shrillness still there - I mean "gives us headaches" shrill. Good kick in the low end, but that's all the good I can say. Connected my new W4S DAC2 DSD-se hoping to make it better. No change in sq al all. Put the B&K back in. The bass is deeper and sound is cleaner with more detail throughout with no digititis. I am v-e-r-y happy with this DAC. Sorry the amps didn't work out but glad you suggested to try a better source, Mapman! Later I may try the AVA 600R, but we will live with the B&K for awhile as it has whetted our appetite for deeper bass, etc. |
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Good point by Tobe. Not usually a good idea to plug high power amplifiers into anything other than the wall outlet. External power conditioners usually become a bottleneck for optimal amp performance in that they cannot deliver the power and current needed. Those that can will be quite large and heavy and expensive to boot and better results may or may not result still. |
Coot, the PS Audio Power Plant Premier's maxium output is 1500W, make sure you are pluging the D-Sonic amps directly into a wall outlet. By the way, for break-in purposes the D-Sonic amps only need to be plugged in and turned on 24/7, no real need to play music for break-in. |
Just spent 2 hrs listening after 66 hrs break-in. Not much better. Looking forward to new DAC. |
Mapman:"changes to input might address that."
My thought exactly. Wyred4sound DAC 2DSDse is on order.
Also, D-sonics now have been running over over 60 hrs. I'll check for sq in a few more hrs. |
Also should point out that break in time may be needed with many Class D amps from what I read, so might be wise to get through that first before changing opr addressing anything else. My Class D amps were acquired used and I did not find they changed much over time by the time I had them. ALso, they sound good immediately from a cold start when I power them up, though I do tend to leave them on most of the time in that they do not draw much power idle. |
Coot,
Keep in mind that the new amp is likely revealing or relating what is fed into it differently than before. If "digital edginess" is heard, I'd say it is quite possible that changes to input might address that. My Class D Bel Cantos are very revealing. I hear major differences in that regard even with changing ICs. Also definitely with DACs. Not so much on digital source, but my digital source is Wifi connected to remote music server with Toslink connection out to DAC. USB connections alone can vary quite a bit case by case as well as I understand it, though I have no experience with those. Personally, I would steer away from USB conenctions myself unless willing to experiment with different implementations.
Just some thoughts to point out that any new issues heardwith new amps may or may not be amps fault. A/B comparisons/testing with different gear might be needed to sort through.
That is my favorite version of St. Saens ORgan Symphony as well. Not perfect but a very fulfilling analog rendition no doubt. |
Re: D-sonic
I have to renig just a bit on my comment about treble sweetness. Today it is not as sweet as we would like. Still some digital edginess in upper violin range. Overall the sound is not as open as we would like as well, but still breaking in. To be continued... |
Tobe:
There is a brief manual that covers all M3 amps. I asked Dennis about impedance. He replied as follows "The M3-1500Ms have a 60k ohm input impedance which will assure a high common mode rejection factor."
I find volume settings are no different that what I am used to with the B&K.
Hope this helps. More remarks to follow when I've done more listening. Make that when "we" have done more listening. My wife is more sensitive to pinched, screechy string sound than I am. |
Coot, did the amp come with any documentation like an owner manual? Do you know the input impedance and the voltage input sensitivity for full output? At your normal listening level is the volume control on your preamp set a little higher, lower or about the same? Good write up, it's what I expected, a more control and tunefulness bottom end. |
D-sonic M3-1500 my first impression.
Out of the box, I am pleasantly surprised at what I am hearing. Be advised, I have nothing to compare them to but my old B&K EX442 and it is no longer connected so no AB. I was concerned about loosing mid and upper range sweetness, but am no longer worried about that. What I have gained - and almost goes without saying - is a substantial bottom end and generally fuller sound. I notice no high range digital edginess or screech. I should mention here that I am soon to hit 73, so take that with a little of salt I suppose. As to my background, I am a recovering music teacher and studied and have heard all instruments play live singly and in orchestras and bands.
Music I listened to was orchestra, solo men and women's voice, choral, string quartet and other chamber groups, brass bands, and finished off with St-Saens' Organ Symphony - Ormandy, Philadelphia w/Michael Murray - Still the best version to my ears. It was an excellent finish. I will say, that I feel Ohms are finally living up to my expectations in the bass department. Some of you have said more power might obviate any desire to add subs. I'm in full agreement with that assessment and I appreciate your suggestions!
System: PS Audio Power Plant Premier > 2009 Mac Mini (AIFF files) > M2Tech Hiface2 USB to SPDIF converter > M2Tech Young DAC > Placette Remote Volume Control Unit > D-sonic M3-1500 (2x mono) > Ohm Acoustic 5000. Power and Speaker cabling is Mapleshade solid copper except amp power cables are std mfg. |
The easy classical pick for me is The Nutcracker on MLP. Its included in teh first MLP box set from a couple years back as well. |
I am using an older set of Kimber 4PR. I really cannot compare these to anything, since I had them before I got my Walsh 2000s, but I can't identify any problems with the Kimber. I would like to upgrade at some point, but financial considerations have put this, and any other upgrades, on hold. |
The both of you who responded. The quest shall go on.. |
Mapleshade solid copper work well for me for speakers and for power. |
Audiogoner Mamboni, who is one of the most knowledgeable OHM owners out there, moved to Wyred recently and reported good results. OHm + Wyred Class D is a natural match IMHO.
I have not payed much attention to wires used with my OHMs in that I use commercial grade in wall speaker wires mostly in my house with all my speakers. I think most any decent wirew should perform well. I do also use Audioquest Cv6 wires. I could easily recommend those. |
Anyone have experience using wyred amps with their Ohms? I am curious about the new mInt and how it would drive my 100S3 Walshes? Also what are people using for speaker cables? My Anti cable's seem bright now that my room has changed its flooring (the to the SO). |
D-sonics due to be here 8/15.
Don't expect too much from me, guys. I'm pretty much a conservative classical listener. We only have music on for serious listening - as opposed to background; approx. 10-12 hrs/wk. I have VERY limited knowledge of electronics, although I did go 100% computer audio 4 years ago. My hearing is still pretty good even at 73. I don't change components very often - averaging 20ys for speakers and amps.
Don't say I didn't warn ya. I'll do what I can... |
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Coot, I'm interested in anything you bring up on the D-Sonic M3-1500, no matter how trivial. |
COot, we'll be waiting on pins and needles for your report.
I'm predicting good things..... |
I just pulled the trigger on a pair of D-Sonic M3-1500s. Yipee!!!
Report to follow. My hope is that the midrange on up is at least as sweet as my B&K. |
Coot: FWIW, I too have my eyes on that D-Sonics amp (although financially, I am farther away from a purchase now than I thought I'd be). I did ask John Strohbeen about that much power into the 2000s. His reply was, "go for it, but keep an eye on the volume control". IOW, don't turn it up loud, then leave the room for an hour. That much power could potentially overdrive the speakers. But if you are in the room, it would be obvious that the level is excessive. As for the bass, I would think the 5000s, properly driven, will have all the low end extension you desire. That said, I do have a pair of powered subs with my 2000s. Truthfully, I might be okay without them (the bass on the 2000s is pretty good), but I doubt any loudspeaker can move as much air in the bottom octave as my pair of powered subs. BTW, the D-Sonic is more like $2400 than $2800 (unless you are Canadian, I guess). |
Thanks Mapman. That helps. |
Adding watage alone with any speakers only means they should play somewhat louder with lower distortion. That is usually a good thing in regards to bass, especially at higher volume, but does not mean anything necessarily in terms of better frequency response at lower frequencies. Two similar wattage amps will likely perform differently at the lowest frequencies. A lot has to do with the impedance load of the speakers and the amps ability to perform accordingly, especially at lower frequencies. In general, smaller speakers that can extend lower will require a more robust power amp to deliver the current needed into lower impedance loads that typically occur at lower frequencies in order to have good low end frequency response. Of course this is just a general pattern, YMMV depending on amp, speakers, room acoustics, etc. |
Question WRT Ohm 5000 power and bass. It has ben said that adding wattage may obviate the need for subs. I need lower bass, not just firmer or louder bass. |
Interesting you mention Bryston. I am looking to replace my B&K with a new amp. So far I am considering Bryston 4BSST2 (300W 8Ohms)-$4995, Van Alstine 600R (300W 8Ohms)-$3500, D-Sonic M2-1500 (1500W 8Ohms)-$2800. Not sure I want to blow the extra $$ for the Bryston. Right now, looks like I will try the D-Sonics. Speakers are Ohm Acoustics 5000s. Budget: $5k max. Any comments appreciated. |
Just figured id throw my two cents in here as i have not posted in a while. Im using MWT talls up front with a walsh center that JS rigged up in a 5.1 system that i use for daily tv watching. Powered by a bryston monster amp, i do love the house sound. Very warm sounding and never strident, but with plenty of detail and of course the imaging/soundstaging wonders.....
Seems that the bryston + ohm is a very good combo that i stumbled on to. I have had dozens of speakers and amps and i continue to be impressed with the ohm sound. In fact i may have to dig out my decades old D2's out of the basement and refoam them just to see what they sound like. I recall dislking them when i used them in the 80s... |
If you review some of my older posts, the answer is, quite well. I have a combo 2-channel/HT rig, with Walsh 2000s and a Walsh Center up front, MicroWalsh Talls for the surrounds and a pair of Paradigm Atoms for the rear surrounds (some day I'll have MicroWalsh Walls instead). Add to that a dedicated subwoofer for the LFE and center/surround bass, and a pair of subs to augment the 2000s (which as a set run full range), and my HT is awesome. Last night I watched a BD of Oz the Great and Powerful. It sounded great and powerful, indeed! |
How do they perform in 7.1 or 5.1 HT setting ? |
Jrhodus emailed me photos of his new 3000's today - Very nice looking in the Sapele veneer - Thanks, James! |
Jrhodus, I just ordered a new pair of 3000 Talls, and the Sapele veneer is high on my list (still awaiting a few veneer samples to arrive in the mail)... Would you be willing to post a photo of your 3000s? This would be of great help - Thanks - Gary
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Just got my ohm Walsh 3000 mains and John had me get a 1000 center channel. He built the center channel to fit in my stand with a curved front in the speaker. I got the Sapele veneer and they are very nice looking. I can't wait to hear what they sound like when broken in. They sound pretty awesome right now. They pack the speakers like they need to survive a gorilla handling them. |
"OHM has a long history, a dedicated customer base to go with it, and control over what goes into the can to make it "sound like an OHM"."
Nice point!
There is a lot about the Ohm's that I simply do not understand, especially regarding the properties of Omni-directional speakers. They seem to violate a lot of the principles that I would otherwise be a stickler on.
And I just don't care. I'm all scientific and skeptical about DACs, amps, cables etc. But when it comes to these speakers, I don't need to know what they put in the can. I just want them to keep putting whatever it is in can!
Does anyone have experience with the satellites? My financial situation is about to take a turn for the better, and I will probably be expanding from 2.1 to 4.1 in the next few months. |
Exactly. That was my main point too. |
"This is where Ohm is distinctive and special. I've heard that the components used vary even within the same model and vintage. BUT, Ohm has a decades-long track record of almost obsessive, monomaniacal preservation and refinement of the house sound. Wanna know what's in the can? Tough. But you know in advance the character of the sound will come out of it, regardless of model.
Is there any other audio manufacturer that is comparable in this respect?"
The one that comes to mind is Audio Research. In the speaker world, maybe Klipsch or Magnepan are in the same category historically, though perhaps not quite to the same extent in regards to reliance mainly on a particular house sound in that their designs have tended to vary more over time and the drivers that make it happen are generally in plain view.. |
"It's ironic that Map's wish for more transparency appears on the endless Ohm Walsh thread, since Ohm has never been known for being open about what's in their cans. "
Yes, it is and has been noted, but the OHM and D Sonic cases are not comparable otherwise IMHO. OHM has a long history, a dedicated customer base to go with it, and control over what goes into the can to make it "sound like an OHM".
Not the case at this point yet anyhow with D-Sonic.
Like Billy Joel sang, "It's a mater of trust...." |
It's ironic that Map's wish for more transparency appears on the endless Ohm Walsh thread, since Ohm has never been known for being open about what's in their cans.
I suspect those class D modules are very cheap (not in quality or build, but in price), highly standardized, and substitutable. Not what you want to broadcast in a market that thrives on mystique (and at times audiophiles' willful suspension of disbelief).
Companies using these types of modular components, probably the majority out there to one extent or another, have to manage their supply networks and quality control to maintain standards, let alone a "house sound." The problem is that this management task is often made more difficult by cutthroat price-based competition among suppliers of standardized commodity goods. These newer manufactures also haven't been around long enough to establish a clear house sound and reputations for maintaining it.
This is where Ohm is distinctive and special. I've heard that the components used vary even within the same model and vintage. BUT, Ohm has a decades-long track record of almost obsessive, monomaniacal preservation and refinement of the house sound. Wanna know what's in the can? Tough. But you know in advance the character of the sound will come out of it, regardless of model.
Is there any other audio manufacturer that is comparable in this respect? |
YEah, not much to go on, but price is right and there is a return policy of some sort if not satisfied.
In the case of D Sonic, where they are dependent on other amp module manufacturers for the main engine, I personally wish they would be a little more transparent about whats inside the box. Sound could change drastically from model to model if a different Class D amp engine is used. Different may or may not be better. Plus there is no "house sound". It could vary largely over time, for better or for worse. But again, the price will always probably be right, and that does matter. |
Unfortunately there weren't too many reviews of the last iteration. 6 Moons .. any others? |
