" finish line " , makes it sound like a race . Somethings should not be rushed .
I don't think any of us want to pore money into a good system to get little or no gain , but when you get just the right new piece there's a feeling of accomplishment and satisfaction not to mention a big smile , almost like the feeling you get after hearing a really great live performance . After all these years I still have trouble containing myself when a new member of the family arrives . I'm careful in my selections so disappointments are few . |
Mike,
Yes I do! I quit relying on myself, admitted that I didn't know it all and listened to Roger ( Irish65 ) and Peter Israelson.
Flying alone I had a really nice system. Riding along with the knowledge and experience of Peter and Roger has taken me to a truly amazing system.
Give Roger a shout, you will not regret it if you want to expand the essence of your system and perhaps get off the upgrade path. The journey was fun, but the feeling that I'm finished and how much I'm enjoying my system is much more rewarding.
Chuck |
After 40 years now you tell me there is a finish line?!?!?!?!?
I must have missed it. Do you have directions? |
I understand the fun in experimentation, I've done it for 40+ years.
The finish line, since there really isn't one for most of us, is the self made line in the sand that an individual may choose to draw. After all of this time, I've drawn my line because of my age and my time and money are needed for other things.
We all know that I can still erase and redraw my line anytime and as many times as I want. But in my case, the conscious effort to hold to my finish line is to upgrade my equipment knowing that I'm plowing money into the upgrades that I'll never recoupe.
Little tweaks aside because they're relatively inexpensive in the whole system's cost, it makes me think really hard before making another component change.
Chuck |
Audioquest -- good points. Experimentation and trying are integral parts of the hobby. |
Is there really an end? It seems like we hear about lots of people who bought systems in the past and they kept these same systems for years. Yes, the occasional upgrade or experimemnt here and there, much like today, or at least with me. I can't really see making an absolute statement in this hobby as to being done, their are too many variables. For example, I still like to tinker and have experimented with megabuck cables, from IC's to power cords, and learned that some work better, while others suck the life out of your system. Looking for a tube upgrade, jump on the latest flavor of the month tube and try it, because many others are claiming this new tube of the month to be the shiznit (Adam Sandler movie). There are a few who are plug in and forget, but I believe there are many more who will not be satisified with same old same old. I just experiemented with 4 amps, two bridged mono amps, and my two tube amps. I do not think I like it as much as the tubes driving my speakers alone. It is an experiment and I did not lose anything, except a few minutes time.
Again, way to many variables to make an absolute claim that one is finished. Sure, perhaps with the big electronics spending, but, cleaning cables, changing tubes, cleaning records, using absorbers under equipment, using equipment stands, isolating equipment, doing anything to the electricity, all count as being part of the hobby. We are way to curious to settle on one absolute in this hobby. Years, well, until you are forced not to do anything or lose interest entirely.
Those are my thoughts at least.
Ciao,
Audioquest4life |
69,
You are of that mind set but unlike you I have reached my destination and will no longer do the buy and try and sell game to find the perfect sound. Continue the journey my friend and enjoy the ride.
If I run into a big $$$ gain and a new room I might think different but new goals of travel and much skiing @ the best resorts is a new mind set. As a matter of fact audio is second to skiing all day long. |
As others have said, there is no finish line. I don't know about you guys but once I get a system working well, I'm ready to change something. Panels to horns, horns to dynamic, planers to electrostatics... It's a journey, not a destination. |
one of the issues of reaching the finish line, is an unrealistic criterion of trying to get a concert hall sound in your listening room. for most of us, with small to medium size rooms and other limitations, this task is impossible. being motivated to achieve it can be frustrating and causing endless adjustments to one's stereo system without reaching your goal. at some point the journey can be unpleasant.
so, having realistic expectations as to what you can accomplish within the constraints of budget and room can lead to realistic , achievable goals. when these goals have been reached, perhaps it is time to stop and listen to the music and not spend any more money , looking for "improvements", as you have reached your goal.
hopefully, one does not continually change the goal, so at some point it can never be reached.
the answer is to develop attainable goals and achieve them. get help when you think you need it.
i find some manufactureres are a good source of grounding. |
Gary,
I want to say one more thing about this path that we are on. There's actually two paths. You're on one and I've switched over to the other about three years ago. Both paths have their merits, it's a person's choice which one that they want to travel.
Your path consists of building your system from stock components. That's good because they're known and resellable.
My path is buying components that I've found that I really like, and then having them taken beyond their stock specs through upgrades. That's good because I know that the stock sound is to my liking, and the upgrade takes it much further down the same road. That's bad because I know that I'll never be able to sell them and recoupe what I've put into them.
There's a hidden thing about my path too. By starting with components that I really like, the amount of money that I'm spending on the upgrades is less than buying, trying and then selling two, three or four stock components. That's a benefit to my path that isn't readily apparent until someone sits down and adds things up. But like I said, it's a more final path unless someone has loads of pocket money to play with.
Chuck |
Gary,
That's what I think about my system too, and why I try to stay away from the Tone Studio in Indianapolis. Mark always brings me back down to reality.
Mark Maryanovshy, the owner, is a cellist in the Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra. When you walk into his audio store and sit down, it is like you're right there in the bar, or whereever, and in front of you is the band sounding as close to alive as I've even seen.
Mark is an expert at matching components and setting up rooms. Now I understand that I'm in a 10' x 12.5' room and that does restrict my possibilities in some areas. But it's so hard to listen to any system at Mark's without being taken in by it.
When you have someone like Mark, who will come to your home and set the system up, as long as you buy it from him, then you really know what is possible in the audio world.
I've gone down a different route where I didn't buy my components from Mark. My route is being guided by Roger (Irish65) and Peter Israelson. I'm in the process of Peter upgrading my Wadia for the final piece. Then Peter and Roger are coming in to set up my room.
There are people among us who have a tremendous amount of knowledge and experience, and are willing to help someone. Those are the people who will help someone get off of the upgrade treadmill, if they want to get off.
As long as someone is flying alone, trying this and that, going off of these forums and reviews, they're flying blind. I don't mean that in a bad way, but Audiogoners and reviewers who don't know someone personally and their musical tastes, can only offer advice based on their own experience and personal tastes. They can guess what you'd like, but it's just a guess and nothing more.
Chuck |
No I really don't think anyone out there can pick better components/wire/etc. that will outrun what I have built. |
Glory ( Gary ),
Your post above says that you're falling off the wagon . . . again.
Chuck |
After we moved, I discovered how much the room means. The new room has a vaulted ceiling and the speakers are not close to the front wall. If you have speakers that work well close to the front wall, keep them, and experiment with amp and pre. |
In my case my room brings me to the end. Limited by the room keeps my speaker put close to the front wall where the Zu speaker still excell.
You guys that like to Dick around with you system what would you upgrade in mine? Speakers have to have bottom end and very close to the front wall. |
I think it's simply a personal decision. It could be based on things such as you don't want to spend any more money, or the journey has tired you and you don't want to deal with upgrading, or that you feel content enough with what you have, etc. |
How do you know when you've reached the finish line? Before I discovered the "high end", I thought my "midfi" was hot stuff. It wasn't until I wandered into a "high end emporium" that I made a startling discovery. Now that those places are almost gone, where can you compare what you think is the finish line. |
i agree tholt, the process, or journey, while challenging, can be enjoyable, becuase of the experimentation involved. |
06-28-11: Glory
Reaching the destination is where the fun starts. The journey is like hell at times with the loss of $$$ to go backwards/sideway. disagree with the former, agree with the latter. I like the journey. It can be a $$ sucker, but it's a huge part of why I'm in this to begin with. Trying new gear and tweaking the system to obtain better than what i had before is enjoyable to me. |
Mitch2, I bet that Clayton & Vibe combo sounds great! I sense they are a great match and sound wonderful together. |
Frankly I found it quite boring at the end. Time to conquer something new. Well said. Unfortunately, to get to that point requires a journey. I am glad you found your sweet spot, mine came with the Clayton M300's and Tom Evans Vibe/Pulse II combo. Those are two I will not replace, and probably not the Aerial's either. I cannot imagine how it can sound much better without spending $$$$$.... |
Reaching the destination is where the fun starts. The journey is like hell at times with the loss of $$$ to go backwards/sideway.
How many times did you try a tweak/ component only to find yourself eating BS after owning the stuff for a while. Frankly I found it quite boring at the end. Time to conquer something new.
The Tenor amp and the Lampizator dac has transported me to my destination. |
i haven't decided when i reach a level of inaccuracy that is acceptable, so i continue to make adjustments.
Mrtennis This is how i feel as well. The problem is, I doubt I will ever find a level that is 'acceptable' for the long term. For me, it's about the journey, not the destination. |
hi glory:
thanks for your explanation. i believe what you are saying is that satisfaction with the sound of your system is , essentially , the finished line.
i wish it were so easy. |
I'm done. I'm very happy with the sound I get. Maybe a real RCM at some point but nothing more in the system. |
Depends on your bankroll. If you have a butler to move your speakers just right for the sweet spot, it doesn't take long. |
I have accepted the limitations of my listening space. So, not long ago I dialed back on gear a bit. Any future purchases will be a lateral move out of curiousity. |
Finished with buying / selling and searching for the perfect sound.
Enjoying the fruit of your labor when you turn on your system and not going into a travail for some new Footers for your dac. |
could someone define what "finish line " means ?
is it contentment with the sound oy our stereo system?
is it the satisfaction of your sonic criteria, as confirmed by the sound of your stereo system?
or is it the correspondence or lack thereof between the sound of an instrument on a recording to the sound of the same instrument, unrecorded ? |
I don't think the love of music and audio is really an addiction . Those that have had a real addiction will no what I mean . |
Addiction or not, if it is more or less under control it's OK. |
Trying friends wire/ gear for free is fun but is this an addiction for many members here like crack/sex/eating disorder/smoking etc... |
This is funny, I just thought about this idea and then i ran across this thread. It took about 20 years for me. |
Inna , your almost right . When the wife mentioned she had found a house with a pool and that we would be moving , my first and only question was , is the living room symetrical . |
At some point you would have to change the listening room and possibly the house. How many of us would go that far?
Even now my modest $7.5k in used prices system would sound much better if I could move it to a better room which I cannot do. But that wouldn't stop me from upgrading. Though my stereo is not a true hi-fi yet it is very sensitive to even small changes; that's good to keep the hobby going. It is not at all only about music, it is also very much about the sound as we all know. |
I know that everyone is different, in both what they listen for in music, why they listen to music and as you said, the fun of experimenting with different components.
But I listen to escape and relax, and I'm 57 and have been actively buying and upgrading since I hit college. That's forty years, and a lot of different components and a lot of money.
I'm finally at the point where I want to enjoy my music without wondering what's next, because what's next is getting ready to retire.
Chuck |
Listening to music is a great experience , but if It wasn't for tinkering with my system or the systems of other club members I think I would lose interest quickly . Shouldn't a hobby be ongoing . Improving things and then listening for improvements or changes is fun , educational and highly entertaining , for me .
We often swap components , cables , cords or something with other members temporarily so the cost is usually nile and if you learn something it may save you money in the long run . |
I think that there is a finish line, but it's made by each individual. I think that point is when an individual says "I am fine right here".
It may be because they are really content with the sound from their system, which has the best chance of lasting. A lot of times someone may vow to stop because of the money spent, but that doesn't always last.
What Roger and Peter have shown me is that there is a point where you can be content if you know what you like and how to achieve it.
But in order to reach that point, you have be willing to accept the help and guidance of people in the industry who really know what they're doing and talking about, and will help without allowing monetary gains to be the driving force.
Chuck |
I don't think there is a finish line . |
My quest will never stop for as long as I can hear at least a single note. That doesn't mean that I am going to spend a fortune though; just $500 on every piece on average including a set of isolation cones, no more. |
The Weiss Minerva was SS sounding and had a narrow sound stage.
The Lamp is in another league. Sounds like my ex TT or better.
Demo for 7 days and hear the sound of a truly great sounding dac. |
The trick is not to go backwards or sideways , you must move ahead to get the rewards this hobby has to offer . |
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you used to own the Weiss Minerva? If so, I assume you prefer the Lamp. Can you briefly compare the two? I'm considering the Lamp dacs in the furture. |
30 days.
Speakers have to stay as they are one of the few that will work in my room.
Cables stay as they have the sonic signature I want in my system
Dac is staying as it made my digital sound as good or better than my ex TT.
Tenor amps are as good or better than Atmasphere amps and the OTL amp is what works best with the Zu speakers.. They stay.
MM stays put. |
Glory: How long have you had the Lampizator and Tenor? |
Audio truth No.___, Just when you think you have reached the Finish Line, someone moves the line a little further from where you are. It is a natural law, I think:>) |
oh yeah, I started playing with audio in the early 70's. |
Right when I think I've arrived at the finish, someone will come along and throw something at me to make me change my mind. I believe I've arrived with my last purchase. My system has had ups and downs. The last upgrade should be my last. Just tired of trying to one up the last change. It sounds sweet, and I'm pleased. No need to waste any more time or money for a meager gain. |
being satisfied with one's stereo system is very subjective.
i have one priority which i have yet to achieve--accuracy of timbre. i have not yet reached it. i doubt i ever will. so i have to accept some inaccuracy. i haven't decided when i reach a level of inaccuracy that is acceptable, so i continue to make adjustments. |
Before you can even think about finding the finish line, you have to actually know what you want to hear from your system. For example, if you like the Virtual Dynamics sound over the Stealth sound, that tells you something.
Next, you have to open up yourself and seek out and if you're lucky enough to find someone who knows more than you and understands what you're looking for, listen to them.
My search ended when I found Roger (Irish65), Peter Israelson, Craig Hampel (CH Acoustic), John Pharo (The Cable Company) and Mark (Tone Studio) and actually listen to them.
It doesn't sound like you've gotten there Gary, it sounds like you're still flying on your own. The reviews and Audiogon forum contains too many opinions by audiophiles who don't know you personally and your personal preferences.
Chuck |
