Not Another NuForce thread......
i used a marsh p2000t with some tube rolling and isolation, preferred it over a nuforce p-8 preamp. i realize marsh is not in the top tier of tubed preamps. though it has received some good reviews. in the end it could not contend with my p-9. i had been studying the use of tubed preamps with nuforce amps and it seems a lot of people like that combo. thats why we can choose what appeals to our liking from so much great gear available. its a buyers market. |
GCIL, I have a resolution Audio Opus 21 and I briefly tried to drive my NF ref9SE v2 into my Gallos ref 3 II directely through the output of the Opus 21: I only kept it for 15 minutes and then inserted a Minimax tube preamp. The difference was absolutely night and day. I have had the Opus for a couple of years and tried it with a lot of associated gear. It is my favourite CDP but in my experience (and many others') the line stage is absolutelly terrible: I always found that there is a real big increase in quality using the DIN output (which bypasses the volume control) compared to the DIN and the XLR. So if you have heard the Nuforce directely driven by the Opus 21, I am not surprised that you didn't like them |
>>Personally I think the combination of tubes in the front end or preamplifier driving the Nuforce is the winning combination. The amplifiers really do work wonderfully well with tubes.<< David, I agree 100% with your findings. I am a member of our local audio club and we listened to my Nuforce Ref. 9s (before upgrading them to V2) with superb electronics and speakers (Resolution Audio CD-player/pre-amp with Great Northern Sound mods) along with Gamut L-3s (BTW... these are amazing speakers!) and I wasn't impressed with the sound. Others in attendance were, but I wasn't. Just wasn't my taste. However, in my system with my digital front-end - an APL Denon 3910 which has a tube output stage and a built-in attenuator, it's a completely different story. I am running my front-end directly into my Nuforce amps and the combination sounds magical... much different than the RA/Gamut combination. So system synergy is very important with these amps (in particular) in my experience. |
are we talking Dave Lalin? i've met him a number of times at Singer over the years (not in the past 5 though since i moved west) and he absolutely knows his stuff (Matt was my salesman many years ago--i think back at Innovative now) btw, Nuforce is the real deal. i would never pay up for huge SS amps again. i've also had the BAT VK 75SE up against it...its closer than you might expect. not quite the liquidity/mids of the BAT, but the bass is more ballsy and the highs are outstanding. the bat is better depending on your needs---i just don't listen to tons of music anymore, so ended up selling my tube gear. i'm more of a sports junkie these days. KR |
having visited Audiooracle's web site -- audiodoctor.com -- I now have reasons to summize that the $21K solid state amp that David (Audiooracle) has been cross-listening with NuForce may be an Edge Electronics model. Since then, I have exchanged a courtesy call with David, which has cleared a lot of ground on this issue. David is the first one to state that, rather than NuForce being an absolute best -- under certain configurations and for certain users -- like when being directly driven by a AA Prestige CD/SACD player, the NuForce may be found by some to be competitive in some ways with the Edge. While Edge yields indisputably superior silkiness and musicality and subtle warmth, NuForce may be found to yield a perhaps more open sound, three dimensionality extension and detail, at perhaps some expense of ultimate smoothness and 'musicality'. David further conceeds that different users will have differing opinions. Sounds fair to me. I further discovered that in 2004 and 2005 David was my patient, kind and knowledgeable host at Sound By Singer, and was the one who unwittingly caused me to fall in love with--and eventually 'wed'--Esoteric X-01, while he was singing the praise of the admittedly highly seductive sound of the Bel Canto PL-1A. . . and how is that for an ultimate paranymph 'malgrais lui'? |
The Acoustic Zen cables produce no time smear, in fact how would you quantify it if it existed in the first place? I think they make a very fine cable, incidentally the Zen Power cords are extremely good. I sell Synergistic Cables as well as Audioquest. I do think that the powered cable technology has some real advantages over non active cables. |
The we, 9rw, is myself and my staff, I have four people on staff, four showrooms, and two trucks, we have converted an 1880s Victorian home into showrooms and are working out of there, until the company grows large enough to move into a brownstone in downtown Jersey City. Currently the display stock is close to $500,000.00 at retail pricing. We welcome any interested parties in for a demo. Your sleuthing is quite good, not that it would be hard to figure out. I am the head of sales and currently there are no other salespeople, but considering there are others in the support staff, the we is correct. As per the "mystery" amp being dusted as you have put by the Nuforce, I never said that, what I said is the Nuforce has been the amp of choice by certain customers having compared the Nuforce amplifiers to these other more expensive amplifiers one which costs four times the price of the Nuforce. Amp selection is directly proportional to what speakers, cabling, preamplifier etc. Currently our reference Cary SLP 05 preamplifier is off line, so we are going direct from the Audio Aero Prestige into the amplifiers on test. It may be that the Nuforce sound great this way and the other amplifiers do not sound as good. I am reporting that setup with tubes somewhere in the front end, the Audio Aero does have tubes in it, the Nuforce rival and are competitive with these more expensive Class A and Class A/B amplifiers. Personally I think the combination of tubes in the front end or preamplifier driving the Nuforce is the winning combination. The amplifiers really do work wonderfully well with tubes. Which is better will come down to taste and preference, I wouldn't carry those other amplifiers if I didn't think those products were superb in their own right. Many people will not even consider a digital amplifier based on their own biases against this technology vs the warm fuzzy feelings that they get from tube amplifiers or from conventional amplifiers. |
Drubin: You might be right. It sure looks likely. I notice the Audiodoctor doesn't say who he is -- or introduce members of his team. It could be because there is no team. It could be because it's just plain old Mr. Audiooracle talking about "we" and "our approach." I think it's time to come clean, Mr. Audiooracle. |
A little sleuthing leads me to believe Audioracle may be Audiodoctor of New Jersey. He carries a lot of lines. |
Stehno: I'll answer your questions when you start answering mine. This is straight and simple: You're a dealer with a vested interest. I told you that I use Audio Magic line conditioning and a dedicated 20-amp outlet. Also, please show me the white papers or other proof about my cables introducing time smear while the ones you sell don't. Your system is more fundamentally flawed than mine. I'm surprised you haven't already mentioned some of the line conditioners you sell. You must have done that a dozen times in other posts over the last few years. Good luck with your business on the side. It's a great way to pay for this hobby, isn't it? |
9rw, let's start at the very beginning of this thread. From the beginning I've already asked you numerous times to provide specific about what you heard with the Nuforce amps and each time you refused to answer. So let's try this once again and hopefully everybody else will take note. Please state when and where you heard these amplifiers, who loaned the amps to you and please also describe in detail what you heard. Based on your responses to me (always ignoring the more generic version of that question) and your subsequent responses to others you've given every indication you've never heard these amps. Yet, you seem to have no problem defaming them with your imaginary claims along with your silly hyperbolic exaggerations. Even if per chance you heard these amps, if you had issues in the highs as you claimed, the first question I would have asked you is what were you using for line conditioners. But since you admit you care little about the sonic harm induced by time-smear in cables, improper or no line conditioning, and improper or no vibration mgmt because according to you your time-aligned and phase coherent speakers do an excellent job substituting for these otherwise unrelated deficiencies, that question would have been moot. Certainly one of the more unbright statements I've heard in this forum. But please don't even bother responding to the bottom half of this post if you won't respond to the first half. -IMO |
9rw i dont know what stehno has paid but heres my cost. i originally bought ref 9 upgraded to se now my amps are in California being upgraded to v2, cost with shipping a lot less than the 5000 mentioned above. in my opinion a great way to do business. offer customers the option to upgrade or not. no one makes you upgrade. one other thing i like about it, you are not stuck with old technology, you have the choice to get the latest at a cost much less than if you had to sell the old and buy the new. outstanding customer service by my view. how about the preamp upgrade or should i say preamp swap out, i got full retail cost for upgrading my p-8 to p-9. another winner. not only for my pocket book, but my ears got a deal also they love the sound. |
Stehno: OK. Enlighten me. After buying an amp -- like the original version -- and having all of the upgrades done, how much would a person have spent? Oh, and please include all of the shipping costs. By the way, is the NuForce line still 50 or 60 points? Sweet. As for line conditioning, interconnects and speaker cables, I guess if it's not one of the few products you carry it's not any good. |
9rw's responses are very impressive. He starts out claiming how poorly these amps sound and yet all of his earlier responses clearly indicate to me that he's never listened to these amps. Then there's his hyperbolic exaggerations on the frequency of upgrades and now his claims that after numerous upgrades one has now spent $10k on the amps. What I find most impressive is his claim that time aligned and phase coherent speakers are some type of proper substitution for time-smeared ics and scs, lack of proper line conditioning, and lack of proper vibration control. Impressive indeed. -IMO |
By the time you pay for all of the well-timed upgrades plus shipping you probably do have an amp that costs $10,000. Pretty clever marketing. So, Mr. Audiooracle, why not go ahead and tell us? What's the harm? I mean, you're the one who brought this up. You had to know people would wonder. If you just got carried away and exaggerated a bit, that's OK, too. But a lot of us want to know. A bunch of us may decide to buy a NuForce amp for ourselves! |
Guido, He was asked the same question on 7/9/07 in response to his post of 7/6/07. He didn't answer then either. Don't hold your breath. You're dealing with a guy who uses the threads as an advertising tool. Why buy ads on Audiogon when you can do it here for free? All of his posts deal with either himself or one of his products. Have a few laughs and view it as entertainment. Like everybody else. So what's up "Doc"? |
I would also like to know which amps did not make the grade compared to the 9SEV2's. Now that Nuforce has entered the 5k region it brings many more big names into the picture on the used market. When you buy used and the name is well known you can usually turn around and sell it for almost what you paid. The 9SEV2 better be in the same ballpark as the 10k plus new amps if they are going to sell new for 5k. I would also like to know how Nuforce stuck $1500 worth of upgrades into that chassis. |
Audiooracle, Nuforce 9.02's. You have to bi-amp the Linn Klouts to match the Nuforce's depth. The Klouts have more of the midrange magic or realism. Both are extended on top and the Nuforce has deeper low end. It is the middle frequencies that separate the two the most. I am not going to explain the micro dynamics for the amps. Lets just say both amps are very good. I have not heard the SE version and maybe I should have upgraded the 9.02's to SE and then to SEv2's. If the V2's extend more in the upper and lower frequencies and keep the delicacy on top with much more added weight or texture in the middle then I guess I would have to demo. I think there should be a little jump factor or a slight forwardness in the music and the Nuforce as good as it is did not have this. As you know, to each there own in what they feel gives them musicality. To me getting the most transparency you can get without losing all the middle is what I like. Vocals don't seem so real without the texture and weight in the middle. I will give up some transparency for texture any day. IT is funny how the adjectives can go on forever describing the sound you want or like. The better the system gets the more adjectives that are added. Anyone want to try and list all adjectives used for musicality? I like using texture because it seems to cover a lot. No texture and you just have a flat window. Some people like this but when I go to watch live music there is nothing flat about it. |
To JP1208 which version where you comparing the Klouts to? The older Ref 9 were good but hardly the world class amplifiers they are now. I would also agree with you that the A21 vs the Nuforce is silly. We have compared the Ref 9SE V2 to a $21,000.00 state of the art solid state amplifier that is rated as one of the best sounding solid state amplifiers in the world, and many of my customers prefer the Nuforce, yes they are that good! I am quite familiar with the Klout as I used to work for one of the biggest Linn dealers in the country, and I liked the Klout so I am interested in the particulars of your comparison. |
Someone in here mentioned the Parasound A21 bettering a Nuforce amp. I have a Parasound A21 and it runs my rear speakers for movies. It is like a Turbo Carrera racing a stock VW. Now, Linn Klouts bi-amped sound more real and involving compared to the Ref 9's. The Klouts have much more texture in the critical midrange and superb staging. More of an involving jump factor. There is not much you can do for the A21. Way too much grain. Very hard to believe somone mentioned an A21 to a Nuforce anything. |
I got my notice to send mine in for upgrade. They are being sent tomorrow. As I said I am very happy with the sound of my 9SE's and can't wait to hear the V2 version. To my ears cables make less improvement to these then any other amps that I have owned. They are just so clean and clear without that "edge". One more point and that is these are the first amps that I have owned that I like just as much during the day as at late night. All other amps that I have owned could only be listened to late at night when the power supply was "less dirty"; that is to say if you wanted them to sound there best. |
I'm wondering about the upgrade from 9SE to 9SE V2. I have the impression -- just my impression, not based on much at all -- that the new V2 board may supersede much of the accomplishments of the SE upgrade to the Ref 9, such that the difference between the 9V2 and the 9SE V2 is less than the difference between the two models prior to the V2 intro. There is probably some superfluous stuff in the SE that no longer adds value. |
Guidocorona my heart goes out to you, going it with out music. no doubt a advantage for class d, dont know if you have noted these reviews from http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue32/nuforce_v2.htm http://www.stereotimes.com/comm070207.shtml as you know no review can duplicate what a component will sound like to your ears in your music room. jb8312s your comments above are well taken, very soon V2 will land in south louisiana, music is such a big part in my life that i have planed my V2 upgrade to correspond with vacation. i have read others feelings on the way nuforce is handling upgrades. i think its great i will have the latest technology with delayed payment. i started with standard ref 9, then SE, now V2, all in the same chassis, this my be a little puzzling but the first upgrade was much more expensive. from what jb8312 and others i have said the musical improvement and over all performance is much greater with V2 for less money. i love lagniappe |
I tried the Bel Canto Ref-1000's in my system, and found the same thing as Lngbruno below- my FM tuner went crazy, and the television was snowy on certain channels. Has anyone found these issues with Nuforce? 07-13-07: Lngbruno So what about my question on the RFI and EMI concerns? Has this issue been fixed 100% in the V2? If so, I will give the amps another trial in my system. I just don't want to burn through some more time and money if this issue is still going to interfere with my turner. Lngbruno (Threads | Answers) |
Arbukle -- The point I originally wanted to make with this thread is that the state of "Class D" has changed with the NuForce V2. I enjoyed my SEs for a year, but in all honestly, once I moved into my larger space - I could not help but hear the digital-ness of the amps and was getting pretty itchy. With the V2, all is right in the world. Since putting the Ref SE V2 in the mix, I have be zipping home each night excited to hear what I can get out of it next. Since putting it in, I have spent well over $500 on new music and hour of time rediscovering the old again. In short, the promise has been fulfilled, IMO. I have nothing left to do but start with room treatments. John |
I am not sure what people are hearing, but I have A/Bed the Nuforce stuff to the Pass Labs stuff and there really is no comparison. The Nuforce stuff is just digital sounding to me and nothing like analog. Just my take. The Absolute Sound hit the nail on the head saying the digital stuff is just missing something, but it is a promising technology. |
Dyspepsia is an other word for upset stomach, a perfect 'family values friendly' condition. My musical happiness is tempered by current hot weather. . . my Rowland 7M golden oldies do become rather warm during Summer in my loft. So I won't use them much until Summer's end. . . hence my interest in class D/T amplification. |
