No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need

Mr. geoffkait
That directional power cord ,that you have mentioned before, if instead of using it on my audio gear, I'll connect it to my coffee machine, would it make a better coffee?

I think that to be an audiophile, I need to use both, my ears and what's in between. This is how I came out with this idea, how to calculate speaker cables.

For some reason, there are too many weird stories going on with audio and audiophiles, that no other hobby does (like photography, that use optics and camera):

Directional wires, Cryogenic treat, Skin effect in the audio band, Burn In to wires!, Bi wired, Silver over cooper and more. All that for a wire? Is that a hidden camera program or for real?

This is getting good. Like pro wrestling at its best worst.

People are free to believe what they wish to believe. But I wouldn’t expect audiophiles as a group, who demonstrate a good amount of skepticism, to necessarily automatically buy into any hog swallop that might be tossed their way, but I also suspect skeptics like yourself are outweighed by the great numbers of audiophiles who do hear directionality and have for twenty years. Time to wake up and smell the coffee! ☕️

Mr. geoffkait
Please don’t worry about any direction of the AC current. They are both well. No other area in electricity (from consumer to space) ever dealth with such a thing as directivity in condutors. In audio, it did. Not because it is any different nor more important (than medical life supporting equipment), but because that crowd is willing to buy that story and pay for it a lot.
There is no such thing, except in audio. Sales guys who take us as NAIVE as it gets.
By the way, if you drink EVIAN mineral water, you might be one of them...

I mentioned Audioquest since power cords are obviously in an AC circuit. No, I’m not an Audioquest sales guy. Would that make a difference? Do you think Audioquest is lying? I’m talking about all wires, obviously. To be honest, I’m not sure you are understanding what is meant by cable or wire “directionality.” It doesn’t mean wire acts like a diode. What I’m saying, don’t put words in my mouth, is that AC current travels in both directions, but you only need to worry about the current traveling toward the speaker. That’s why reversing speaker cables, interconnects, fuses is audible. And why power cords should be controlled for directionality like any other cable. Even though directional differences in resistance are very small, they are not entirely symmetrical, differences in sound are quite audible and often quite pronounced. Even for a teeny tiny little fuse. This is not my first rodeo. 🤠

Mr. geoffkait

Your say about hearing only the 1/2 wave in AC is not supported by anyone. It is absolutely incorrect.
The only way doing that, is by placing a diode on the line. That will eliminate any current the opposite direction.
If that is done, you will really get only 1/2 the wave, 1/2 the voltage and also 1/2 the power. For sound, you will get 50% distortion.

Showing now the FR swipe on a Spectrum Analyzer, would present a whole different thing than without that diode.
Even the speakers motion, is on both directions (pushing out or pulling in) must be done by a signal (Amp. forced) and not like a door with a spring that close automatically. 

Sorry, if you are an Audioquest sales guy. 
As for power cords, please leave it out. We are talking about speaker cables on this chat. 

None of the above, is on the subject, of how to fit (calculate) the right cable for your system. Unfortunately, Audioquest can't tell you that. 

Dill,

You are correct, $23 buys clad aluminum.  Thanks for educating me.

I will order pure copper for $69.

Gratefully yours

b4icu
Mr. geoffkait
You bett right.
On cryogenics or burn inI answered already.
Directionality: Audio is an AC. That means that every 1/2 wave is flowing in the opposite direction of the other 1/2.
Please be kind to explain, who is changing the cables directionality so many times a second...?

>>>Easy question. The reason wire direction matters in an AC circuit is because the signal that is traveling in the “opposite direction” doesn’t matter in terms of what you hear from your speakers. You only hear the signal that is traveling toward the speakers. So you can forget about the 1/2 wave traveling in the opposite direction. That’s why you want the best direction of the wire in the cable or fuse or power cord aiming toward the speakers. That’s precisely why the new Audioquest power cords are “controlled for directionality.” I.e., each tiny strand in the power cord is controlled for directionality.  It’s because direction of wire matters in an AC circuit. Get with the program.

I purchase solid core (currently AQ biwire works for me) and plug it in...I then listen to music and completely forget about it (the wire, not the music). I am very careful about it being long enough to reach the furthest speaker...hey...I'm a perfectionist.

keppertup  said: "Ebay is selling 25 feet of 0 AWG copper wire for $23.  I will buy it, install it and report back. " 

At that price, you can be sure it is copper clad aluminum wire.

Dear Ganainm,

Please a look at the work of Steve Reeve (image99.net, click on Audio Alchemy) regarding noise created by parallel + and - wires.  Steve’s approach to a solution is different.  I have assembled his cables and they are very good.  My ears prefer the wires being separated by substantial space as opposed to Steve’s Helix (coil) design.

Cheers

Keppertup: Well I am quite familiar with the ladder line concept from Ham Radio RF work.  I would lean to it being hard to hear differences at audo but given the affordable nature and hands on fun (kind of like op amp rolling)I am leaning to trying it but it will likely take a while to get to and have the team together to do my blind test hook up for me.I like that it has BIG parameter changes vs 12 g copper zip.

Two things about the Waldo Nell 43 page anti audiophile “scientific” extravaganza. First, the third word in his diatribe is pseudoscience. I think I already see where this is headed. Two, the correct grammar is, “a lot of pseudoscience is being tossed around.” Waldo Emerson he’s not. Audiophile shops? What in heaven’s name are those? Anyway, for those reasons I’m out.

“A lot of pseudoscience are being tossed around audiophile shops, manufacturers and the internet regarding speaker wiring and how it affects sound quality. Manufacturers and resellers want you to believe that spending thousands of dollars on speaker wires are justified as it can make a substantial difference in audio quality when compared to cheaper wires.”

Ganainm,

Google: Monsterslayer.com for silver wire.  Scroll to the bottom of their ordering form to find the .999 wire.  Or, just call them.  Very courteous staff.

Given your background, I would be most interested in your feedback on copper vs silver.  I have built and bought XLR’s and speaker cables with both.  I prefer the lifting-of-the-vail provided by silver.  I read that others dislike the shrillness or glare of silver and prefer the warmth of copper.  

I like hearing the reflected sound of the room in which the performance was recorded.  For me, detail is more important than warmth.  Tight controlled bass, for me, is more pleasing than detail killing boom, assuming both reach the same SPL at  30hz.  I find that DSD recordings lack shrillness and produce realistic sounding bass through silver interconnects and cables.  44.1mhz 16bit recordings do sound “shriller” or contain more glare to my ears.  I suspect copper wires would tame the glare.

I am concerned that I am biased because I came up with a minor twist in cable design and I recognize that cables are tone controls.  BTW, I have spoken to others who have experimented with the ladder speaker cable design.  Cable TV systems originally used ladder line (naked copper separated by clipped-on 1/4“ wood dowels).

I am equally concerned that other listeners just prefer to hear that which is familiar or that less vailed reproduction by interconnects and/or cables amplify shrillness in source components.  I glean from your comment that, “familiar” to you, is the live performance.  Hence, my interest in your opinion.

I will be ordering the 0 AWG copper and assemble ladder speaker cables.  I remain curious.  Please stay tuned.

Thanks for the kind words.

All good wishes,

For folks really trying to understand this stuff, you could do a lot worse than googling Waldo Nell The science behing speaker wire. 
He discusses real engineering with real math.

ThePigdog: Think of it as Gabriel Marquez meets Hunter Thompson. Then it becomes art. Found art.

I have just read through this thread and now I am dizzy.

There is so much pseudo science and 
engineering as to be a prototype for "whacko audiophilia" and many smiles so thanks. But I did want to put in a genuine admiration for Keppertup's hands on experiments based on straightforward parameter changes and rational money. I might look for some of that jewelers wire my own self.
I have yet find better than #12 copper (12 foot lengths) for my system, that I compare to live unamplified acoustic instrument sound that I know well, because I play it. But that is just me.

By all means let's boil it down to a subjectivist decision and take all fun out of the equation. Part of the joy is experimentation. 

Signed,
An Objectivist Listener

Mr. keppertup
It is not a good idea to solder a o AWG wire.
Try to use a cable shoe and crimp it.
I would not solder my equipment's bindig posts to wires...
use banana plugs.

Solder bare wire to speakers bare wire to custom crossover and form a soldered wire hook for amp screw clamp terminal.  Any suggestions?

By the way, in the car audio world for speaker wire thicker is always better just harder to hide.

cleeds1
You're right. I don't think that would make a difference though.

OP
I was and am serious. I have easy access to wire and really wanted your advice. I am in the car audio business and I have a good crimp tool and I can terminate. I plan to try your advice. Do you still think I need 0 guage minimum to see the effects?
Thank you

Mr.  geoffkait
You bett right.
On cryogenics or burn inI answered already.
Directionality: Audio is an AC. That means that every 1/2 wave is flowing in the opposite direction of the other 1/2.
Please be kind to explain, who is changing the cables  directionality so many times a second...?
All home apliance use AC (at yours 60HZ at mine 50Hz). What about them? The electricity STD defines which is the hot line and which is the return. Try to convince them about  directionality. 
It is amazing, what kind of crap sales guys are trying to pull with Audiophiles that have no understanding in electricity, but are deep into spending large on the beloved hobby.

partroysound

The ribbons are from the Infinity IRS.

The Infinity IRS uses planars, not ribbons.

Mr.  keppertup
Good Luck. How exactly do uou have in mind connecting the  0 AWG copper wire for $23 to the amp and speakers?

Mr. partroysound
I'll quit this game, till the OP's end. It is getting a bit weird. 

OP
The ml3 has select able DF 100,200, and 300 at 50Hz. The ribbons are from the Infinity IRS. Actually I am tri amplified, another ML3 and a ML9 on the top. I can run active or passive on the crossover and  do switch back and forth if any of that matters. Does that change anything? When I am active crossover there are no coils. How does that affect your recommendation?
Thank you

Ebay is selling 25 feet of 0 AWG copper wire for $23.  I will buy it, install it and report back.  I have five feet of cable between amp and speakers.  Any other instructions?  For me the hobby is about experimenting.

I bet you’re not too thrilled with directionality or cryogenics or burn in. 😛

Be civil, people.  Personal invective is mean-spirited and counterproductive,
      (A certain amount of generalized invective launched into the aether can be fun.)
     As an audio dilettante and a scientist, I find all the discussions of cables not based on laws of physics or blind comparisons to be , well, entertainment.

     BE NICE NOW!
      

Actually, silver is 7% more conductive than copper but who’s counting?

Have not found the Spec of DF on the ML, but did on the 23.5: >600.
The ribbon ( Magnepan) is still a hard cookie to drive (4 ohms with 86dB/w/SPL sensetivity).
If that would be a coil loaded speaker, it would be a 2 x 0 AWG for 12 ft.
As it is a ribbon, it migh be less (0 AWG would do).

OP
You mentioned earlier that Ribbons are an exception. What would you recommend for a Mark Levinson ML3  with a 12 ft run to a ribbon array?
Thank you

Mr. keppertup
Siver has a 9% better conductivity than cooper. It should cost 94 times more. A 16 AWG silver wire would have a very similar resistance to a 16 AWG cooper wire. For the price of the silver ( $2.87 per foot ) you should buy it by the mile and sel by the ounce. 
Your Hegel H200 integrate amp has a Df of 1,000. Very good.
http://www.hegel.com/images/discontinued/H200manualenglish.pdf
That would call (by calculation) to a 2x 0 AWG cable @ 8' long.
How long is your cable?
You might have $9,500.- value of speaker cables that were all purchased without any serious guidance, to become obsolete inventory.
What you need is a set of 2 x 0 AWG, if 8' long, that should cost you less than $2,500.-

I experience the same results with the silver wire ladder design driving a second system consisting of a Hegel H200 integrate amp driving Aria A speakers (Joe D’Appolito three-way design employing Cabasse cone woofer and Accutron ceramic drivers).
I buy 16AWG naked .999 pure solid silver wire from a jewelry industry supplier in New Mexico for $2.87 per foot and poly sleeve on Amazon for $.14 per foot.  It only takes 30 minutes to assemble these cables (cut silver and sleeve to length, insert wire in sleeve, attach spacers to cables and attach wire to terminals).
Measuring the differences between conventional materials and designs when compared to the ladder described, with instruments other than my ears, is beyond my ken.
Invest $70 and thirty minutes and let your ears be your guide.
For over thirty years, I to, was a cable denier.  I have $9,500 of various unsatisfying cables sitting in drawer or were resold.  I wonder if the measurement sciences have caught up to the reality of how electrons behave when transmitted via different materials, and in proximity to the signal and ground wires.
Happy listening.

Mr. kosst_amojan
Speaker cables are not supose to have any inductive or capacitance values. It is a cooper wire. You wrote: " 16g conductors in a round braid" By putting them into paired parallel lines, twisted 6 fabric insulated 16g conductors, get them some small values of impedance. My cables are two separate cables, so no inductance or capacitance are involved.
You are telling a tell of a wire you made, but how you ended up with that particular value of cable resistance, to fit your system!
Was it a divin revelation in your dream, that instructed you to build those cables, as the rest of the arc?
You call me a liar, at a time you can not tell the diference between an interconnect and a speaker cable.
A power amp. input resistance is usually 10kOhms, and it is pasive resustance. The speaker is 4-8ohms, a complex coil loaded impedance.
Interconnects have a shield to ground and a capacitance developed between the two. Good speaker cables, unless you twist them, have none. An interconnect need to pass milliamps, a speaker cables pass 1000 to 10,000 more current.
Giving a jumpstart with good 4-0 AWG speaker cables would do. Doing that with an interconnect cable...?
Well they are not the same, and bever were.
I’m not a liar, but you do not understand a thing in electronics or audio. 
Calling me that again, will end up with a comlpain and no more answers!

Ohms law is saying that too, as any relation between U (voltage), I (current) and R (resistance). U= I x R
This can be also R = U / I or I = U / R. The power P = I x U in AC also x2.
What about the resistance (R) of a cable, if you need to keep it the same, but also to extend that cable from 8' to 20'?
To keep the voltage drop on a resistor (the speaker cable), if you make it longer, you need to increase its cross section to keep it the same R.
this is exactly what 3 AWG at 8’ would become 3x0 AWG at 20'.
Go to the AWG table and do your calc.

Your "Smart" quote from Google is showing how little you understand this subject. Way less than you need for an argue with it.

@b4icu said:

For the 3x0 AWG suggestion: My suggestion was for 3 AWG at 8’.
You require 20’. That increases the cable resistance by 3 and if you go to the guage table it calls for a 3 times 0 AWG to keep it the same as a 3 AWG of 8’ long.
That’s Ohms law.

@b4icu, you are sadly mistaken. This quote demonstrates your ignorance of the electrical “engineering” subject matter that you profess expertise in.

For your information, Ohm’s Law states that resistance (in Ohms) is equal to the potential difference (in Volts) measured across a conductor divided by the current (in Amperes) flowing through it.

Mr. kosst_amojan
Sorry that all your money could't buy you some knowladge.

Skin effect:

What about the wires inside the speaker boxes or inside the amplifier? They are in that loop of speaker's cables. 

·         Speaker manufacturer provide FR (Frequency Response) data that was measured in test.

·         Amplifier manufacturer provide FR data that was measured in test as well as calculated.

·         The above data is often reviewed and proved by magazines and web sites. They are true.

None takes measurements to tangles the skin effect issue. Speaker cable manufacturer's that never provides any piece of technical data, all the sudden do pay special attention to the skin effect. Why?

The other part is that what the FR of skin effect is telling us, that a 0 awg cable that has a 150A current capacity, is good up to 250Hz@150A. this cable can still pass way more current at 20kHz than a thin cable. A cable of 19 AWG van pass 21kHz @ 1.8A. A 0 awg can do that too!

You say: "Cables are VERY low impedance in the audio spectrum; certainly lower than the output impedance of the vast majority of amps out there". Absolutly incorrect. Most power amplifiers out there are class A/B and have DF of 200 and above. 

Most speaker cables are 12-14 AWG and are 8'-24' long. Your say  VERY low impedance shall get figures. you will find out that the figures are no more that low vs. the output resistance of amplifers, when using 8 ohms / DF.

Mr. keppertup

Silver has a better conductivity than cooper by 9%. It's cost 94 times more. There is no way you can get a silver wire for $7/feet. Silver's melting point is close to the cooper (about 1,000 deg. C). very hard to work with.

Not the elements inside or other do the difference but the overall resistance.
That could be achieved in other ways too, without using exotic materials.
For the distance, I use two different cables (red and black) that are never in parallel.
All your say is not in line, as I excused non coil speakers from this conversation, and yours are ribbons. (Magnepan MG IIIa’s).

Mr. stevecham

The speaker's 8 ohms is not a part of this calculation.

Your first par. adds the speaker impedance with the cable resistance (like adding bananas with apples!). The concept is wrong.
The speaker's cables resistance is not part of the load (speakers). They are an extension of the amplifier, just as I claimed before.

Your second par. is also wrong! DF is always related to 8 ohms (@1kHz), even if the actual speaker to connected is other (4 ohms or higher than 8 ohms). It is a fix number = 8.

In overall, your way doesn't fit the actual relations, nor explain what different cables sound different. As if you would be right, all cables would sound the same.

Poor wording on my part.  No the cables do not calculate.  The company measures all of your components' parameters and the company builds a cable with a network that that takes all of those factors into account.  Now your search is over.  Sorry for the ambiguity.  

Hi there . For me every thing is simple. Top line speakers as well as amp ,power amp, preamp, cables and ofcours most expensive on entire world . And no question, no more arguments . It must sound good. I might invent something exceptional something extremely good sounding, but who is going to admire it , I got no name. We already have a gurus who are on the top. I should maybe write, money talks as simple. Thank you , nothing to argue about.

8 Ohm nominal speaker impedance +
0.0256 Ohm cable resistance =
8.0256 total nominal amp load.

Amp output impedance 0.016 Ohms
DF (which is a ratio, not units) into 8 Ohms is 8/0.016 = 500
DF into 8.0256 Ohms is 8.0256/0.016 = 501.6

Big difference. Not.