No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need

Mr. keppertup

Thanks you. Thanks you again.

Could you please help me out with some supporting information? I posted just above this:

When the time will come, to share your impression here, please do it in some ordinary way:

> Specify your Amp and speakers: Pass Lab 250.5 with Magnepan III's.

> Specify the previous cable that was replaced: just gauge and length. (?)

Please avoid brand and model. Thanks.

You may add how much that cable cost… (?)

> Specify your new cable: gauge and length. If other than was: 0 AWG, 5 feet long

recommended, please notice what was recommended too. (if different from  0 AWG, 5 feet long)

Would you please be kind to do that for me? Thanks.

I’m really happy that it worked for you. I didn’t say it won’t work for none coil loaded speakers, I just claimed it is different. On the theory and the drowing board, it is.
Some pictures of your cables would be more than welcome. Thanks.

For the record:
> The same results would apply if you turn the cables direction! :-)
> The same results would apply if you say they were cryogenic treated! :-)
> If you make another set, at the time this set "goes through" a so called burn in, and then after some time you will connect the new cable, it will sound exactly the same. No "burn-in" excuse is required when the results are: 

jaw dropping. 

It sounds good from the first moment. Trust me on that.

Wish you lots of hours playing your music and discover tones of new sound bit’s you never know it’s there.

As I said, you were listening to only some of your system potential before. Now you are listening to ALL of it.

It is not only your ears that approve it, but some engineering calculations, I stand behind it. Something that never been done before with most systems. Welcome to the club. Thanks you again.

For all other, who are yet in the process getting there, it might be a nice clue of what is comming at you, when you are ready. God bless you.

Dear b4icu,

I purchased 25 feet of 0 AWG form a supplier on eBay for $45 ($12 shipping) and four brass (supposedly gold plated) battery connectors ($7.49).

I constructed four five foot cables in just over one hour.  Battery connectors were converted to spades with a cold chisel and wire cutters, cable was cut with a hacksaw and insulation stripped with the hacksaw.  Spades were connected to Pass Labs 250.5 terminals (PL does not supply banana plug receptacles).  I attached banana plugs to a two inch piece of silver plated 8 AWG wire.  I hollowed out a holle in 0 AWG wire with a punch and did not remove insulation.  I then inserted the stripped 8 AWG wire in hole and secured the assembly with a hose clamp around the insulation at the cable’s end.

The cables were attached to my thirty year old modified MG IIIa’s.  The results are stunning.  The amount of undistorted energy filling the room, is jaw dropping.  I keep turning up the volume to levels that previously irritated my ears, and experience no irritation.  In the modified lyrics of B.B. King, “The shrill is gone.”  My wife is hearing new detail in cuts she has listened to many times before.

In my case, b4icu, you were absolutely correct, thank you (except for the part of you doubting ribbon speakers would be improved with installation of your design).  I can’t wait to try the cables in one of my other systems that employs cone speakers.

I am am sure every case is different.  Nevertheless, I encourage other hobbiest to test your theories.

Thank you for your generosity and patience.

All good wishes

b4icu,
thank you so much Michael. If the 4 or 6 awg can be somehow attached to this coaxial connection of the amp, it will be wonderful. 

Mr. khiak

As I already established a communication line with Goldmund and Mr. Rodolphe, I posted him some questions regarding the Telos 600 special speaker connectors.

I'll share that with you as soon as he will reply.

We never leave a wounded on the battlefield ! :-)

For all those who are in the process of getting a NEW cable that was calculated and recommended.

First, good luck and thanks for the trust. I really hope that most of you, if not all, will end up happy and satisfied.

 

When the time will come, to share your impression here, please do it in some ordinary way:

>  Specify your Amp and speakers.

>  Specify the previous cable that was replaced: just gauge and length.

    Please avoid brand and model. Thanks. 

    You may add how much that cable cost…

>  Specify your new cable: gauge and length. If other than was

    recommended, please notice what was recommended too.

 

Then use your own words to describe your impression.

This is important for all of us, to get the equipment and cables data, not only a say of how good (or not) is the new cable.

Thank you all in advance.

Michael (b4icu).

Mr. khiak

The connectors you call BNC are not BNC!
GOLDMUND TELOS 600 : http://www.audiounion.jp/ct/detail/used/95826/
Or the last page of your GOLDMUND TELOS 600 RTFM.
BNC: https://www.iitk.ac.in/ibc/BNC.pdf
It looks more like an enlarge (not STD size, but very large) TNC.
GOLDMUND would be a good place to start with. I don't like this "unique" approach. However, the TELOS 600 have also 4 ordinary binding posts.
I am kind of confused...how did you connect the GOLDMUND TELOS 600 with your speakers till now?

b4icu,
I will share my impression on this exchange. I paid $25k for 2 pair after discount.
The Goldmund amp have 2 male BNC output for speaker connections. Anybody know where I can buy the female connectors. I plan to connect the 6AWG cable by this connection if I can source the female connectors. Many thanks to all.

Cardas and other quality companies make them.  Here is a very nice one from Cardas. 

http://cardas.com/cab.php

Do you have a link to those adaptors? I don’t think I came across any.
Nevermind actually, I googled. I might already have some bananas that’ll work.

My plan is to bend the spades back by 45 degrees to give myself additional clearance if needed. it’ll be interesting.

Nice choices.  Let us know.  I saw those same spades and they should works nicely. If to big or bulky to fit, then you can buy spade to banana high quality connectors.  

I ordered them from chameleoncables on ebay:

2 of these: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/192412561182
And 1 of these: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/192044378960

I spoke with the shop owner and he's going to cut the cable into 4 x 2.5 m lengths and terminate them so I have four black ends and four red ends.

I might need to use a reducer or a termination block to connect the binding posts, but I have lots of room so it might fit directly.

May I ask from who and what did you order? Fully assembled? Can you provide a link and how they will be terminated? Thanks.

I ordered mine and they came in slightly cheaper than I was expecting, £125. They're being cut and crimped this weekend and will be shipped to me on Monday, I should have them hooked up at the end of the week so I'll report back with images.

I like the idea of direct connection much better with high quality connectors. The resulting sound will be better. The idea of splitting the cable into two equal portions and terminating with a spade and banana for direct connection to the binding post is a good option. It reduces the strain on each connector also. The wire link I gave is for very finely stranded copper (thousands) with is very flexible and easier to work with. It is pure copper, not copper clad aluminum which would not sound as good.

Mr. grannyring

My solution, as seen on one of my posts, was to use a short 8 AWG agent wire, between the banana plug and the thick cable.
It is also good for the strain relief on the contact point of the cable with the binding posts.

Even if I would find a banana plug that could take a 0 AWG cable, I doubt it if I would use it.

Keep in mind that it is difficult to work with a 0 AWG cable. It is very different then the ordinary 12-14 AWG cables.

Don't twist the red and black cables.

Mr. kalali

The thick cable are separates. As so, no capacitance is developed.
Capacitance is defined as the dielectric value developed between two metal plates at a steady distance...
The cables are meant to be as short as possible. There are no extra wire on the floor that get coiled to create inductance.
The Z of such a cable, if any, is negligible. Because the R is so low, capacitance or inductance are negligible.

Thank for your concern.

I read through most of the posts and get the notion of the thicker the better for resistance but might have missed references to the inductance and the capacitance that these very thick cables add to the mix. Wouldn’t the additional inductance and capacitance act as low pass and high pass filters, respectively, and cause frequency roll-offs? Was this issue addressed in the exchanges among the "experts"?

I did find 5AWG high end bananas. I would like to try the 3/0 cables the OP suggested based on my 20 foot runs and gear. I may try 0 AWG. Problem is the cost to try is $400. I like the sound of stranded tinned copper wire sold by folks like Duelund, Supra, and Western Electric and always wondered if thicker gauge would sound even better based on my long lengths. There is a source for this as thick as 4/0 AWG. If the bananas were stackable I could split the thick conductor into two equal parts and terminate with stacked bananas or a combo of banana and spade. I have not found a high end 5 AWG spade connector however.

If if anyone finds a spade or banana of good quality, very important, that accepts 4 AWG or thicker let us know.

I am open minded to this and if the cost to try was lower I would do it. I would not use anything other than high purity, oxygen free, stranded tinned copper for this however. The strands need to fine. The connectors also need to be of high quality. As mentioned above, one can split the conductor into two equal parts and terminate with a combo of spade and banana connectors.

Here is a link for the 5 AWG banana connectors. Just scroll down to find them.

https://www.douglasconnection.com/searchquick-submit.sc?keywords=Bananas

Here is a link to the stranded and tinned bulk cable I would use. The maker offers all kinds of gauges. I think they were referred to in another post above. I do not know if the wire used sounds as good as
Duelund, WE, or Supra. The Duelund is cryo treated and that does make a positive sound quality difference. I know the OP has a different opinion. I have done comparisons and not sure if he has. My opinion is based on actual testing and listening. I suppose one could send out this wire to be cryo treated.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0156WDXSM/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1NLNJ4Y2QP8Z&psc=1


One last point.  To effectly reduce noise, especially over long runs, one really must twist the positive and negative runs.  Well twisting this thick cable will give you a very thick bundle! Just something to consider. 

Mr.  khiak
You are welcome. All I'm asking in return, that you share with us your impressions from that exchange. Thanks.
How much did you pay for a set of 2m Kharma KESL Speaker cable?

b4icu,
I have been using this setup for the last 10 years and I am excited to hear a improvement for so little a cost. Thanks 

Mr. khiak
Bi-wire is another urban legend, established in the 90’s. For a single cable at a X AWG is better than Bi-wire that the two, equals to the cross section or resistance of X AWG! This can be proved by simulation of the two circuits on "Spice". A cooper cable can conduct all audio frequencies at the same time. Some older TV designs, used wide band amplifiers, that would amplify two different frequency bande (IF and audio) to save.

As long as you are using your Telos 600, the wires need to be:
4 AWG@1.5m or
6 AWG@1.0m.

Can not find ant spec of your cables. Most are the Enigma...model. Also no Spec. 

b4icu,
for your info, presently I am using 2m Kharma KESL Speaker cable for both of them. Thanks 

b4icu,
Many thanks for your advice. Presently I bi-amp the Kharma with a Telos 600 driving the 25mm diamond tweeter and 165mm ceramic mid and another Telos 600 driving the 330mm Nomex-Kevlar woofer. Is both cable the same at 4AWG? What if I move the amps closer to the speaker and have 1 m cables instead? Thanks 

b4icu OP
Mr. geoffkait

Well done. You reached 11,881 posts. Yes, this is the way to have 12,000 posts soon. This may explain your reluctant nagging since I opened this thread.
Clock in a digital audio device is jitter related. What jitter has to do with a speaker cable?
Do you even understand what jitter is?
Why it is of any concern, how much jitter is audible, and when does jitter becomes valid?
You are accusing me of: " So, just because you declare these things irrelevant, hotshot, doesn’t make it so".
At a time you just bring up things without supporting them by any technical background or sense, I doubt you if you understand them at all!

Good luck chuck with the 12,000 posts. Must be the achievement of your life time.

Do you collect any other points? Wal-Mart, Safeway, Gas station? Must be a lot of fun.

>>>>Wow! Let me point out it was you who misspoke technically when you stated the conductivity of silver is 9% greater than copper. Why you would assume you’re the only one who understands technical things here is simply bizarre. Can I suggest you might not be quite ready for prime time?

Thanks for the image, the cables sure are going to be monsters.

I'm going to get them terminated with spades (spades/forks, not rings as in your picture) so there'll be no cutting of the terminals required.

Everything is very close to the floor so weight shouldn't be an issue, but I appreciate it might. If they won't fit then I might use a connecting block to convert the 0awg to 4mm cable for the last inch or two.

I appreciate the concern and I take your advice on board; I'll be careful.

Mr. khiak
I sincerely apologize for the delay. Here is the answer of Mr. Rodolphe BOULANGER, of Goldmund from Swiss, arrived short while ago: 10:58 12/10/2018 (Israel time).

"Dear Michael,

email well received as well as S/N .

The damping factor is Telos 600 damping factor: 400 at 1 KHz, on 8 Ω.

I hope it helps.

Thanks.

Best Regards.

Rodolphe BOULANGER
Sales Director"

For 1.5m long cable @ 400DF you will need a 4 AWG cable.

Mr. conradnash

Please your kind attention:

Here are two spades (I call them also cable shoes: an 8 AWG and a 1/0 AWG. I laid them on a $50 bill, for you to have true size and proportions. Both are quite a tight fit to the wires, to ensure best contact when crimped.

https://imgur.com/a/wueD1lq

https://imgur.com/a/RxDhvjz

A 2/0 AWG is thicker than a 1/0 AWG. Never used a 2/0 AWG, but the gauge table: https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm Say that a 1/0 AWG has a 8.25246 mm in diameter, and a 2/0 AWG has a 9.26592 mm in diameter. It’s 10% or 1mm thicker wire.

I do not see a way that the flat side of that spade, even if you cut its front center out, is getting into a standard binding post.

I only try to save you some disappointment, when you get to the "bridge" and want to cross it.

I also would like to remind you, that the weight of a 2/0 AWG pulling down this spade from a binding post, is not the match I would like to see.

Some guys here, have equipment accesses of $1/4M! I would not dear to risk in that way. Please use extra caution.

Mr. shadowcat2016 

Thanks for bringing it up.

As you say, I asked no money, only offered an idea and some help. All for free.

No one yet came back from a try with a fail or success, to prove me wrong nor right.

So, I will join the question: Why?

PS. Please check your dot key, on your keyboard. It seems to stuck occasionally. :-)

Mr. tobor007

I’m impressed you had mentioned specs. What specs of the Kimber Kable (12TC) cables is the one that you think would make it a perfect match to your system (Amp. and Speakers)?

Regarding the signal loss graph, I think that the vertical (x) should have been dB rather than m Ohms. Even then, it is a good sample of from where and why the skin effect might have came from…

Kimber always used wire counter on their products. What would do, to make their cable prevail over others? That’s right: The skin effect. As no other makes it that way, skin effect would be a good marketing argument. Is it for real? NO. But those who fall in this scheme, can bring it up on my thread as a saying to earn more points on posts.

From your post, the strongest saying is that you managed to get around with a $45 Chinese Kimber over an original for $750. Well done Sir.

It reminds me a boy who came home and say to his dad: I just saved you $2.50.

How come asks his father?

I run after a bus rather than take a ride.

Well said his dad:

Next time you better run after a taxi and save me $25.-

I love Kimber Kable (12TC). 8' pair cost $750. Chinese Kimber cost $45. Found out they have the same specs, so they sound the same. I did not have to listen to the expensive ones.

Mr. stevecham

This is your post:

Amps: Manley NEO 250 monoblocks
Speakers: Thiel CS2.4

I have correct speaker cables, for me, when I hear more than I’ve heard before and didn’t spend an arm and a leg to do so. Plus, the overall balance and stage are "just right."

1. The Manley NEO 250 monoblocks is tube amplification (not much of difference with Damping Factor Triode: 14.8).
2. Cable length is missing.
3. You claim: " I have correct speaker cables ". Is that a real request to get help with new cables?
4. At the time, your posts were so aggressive, that I took the liberty to be polite and ignore them.

I’ll do say, that there is a no much sense in matching a Thiel CS2.4 to a Manley NEO 250!   
https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs24-loudspeaker-measurements
https://www.manley.com/hifi/n250/
That is a 4 ohms speaker and goes down to 2.73 ohms at 600Hz ! with 88dB/w/m SPL. one of the most difficult to drive. 
I hope you enjoy the Manley NEO 250 1.5% THD and its 14.8 DF vs. 2.73 ohms...
In your case the cables are the last to worry about.

I'm still waiting for my "solution" to my amps and speakers from back in September. Nothing forthcoming. SHAM CITY.

When in doubt, try it out.........isn't that what we all do anyway? Some things seem to work for some people, in some systems, some things don't. If I do something to my system and hear an improvement, but you can't replicate the results, does that make it BS??? .........I recall years ago a product that was called........I think......Maringo dots.......Tiny little things that you were supposed to strategically place in your listening room for wondrous results........Never bought them, thought it HAD to be BS...........but I'm sure some people did and maybe they even thought it made a difference................Stop beating the poor guy up. If you don't buy what's he's selling.........free I might add......don't try it........or try it for a few bucks...........It won't cost anymore than dozens of other "tweeks" that we've tried before, often with questionable results..........How is his theory any crazier than a lot of the stuff that you probably paid good money for in hopes of better sound.........As high tech as this hobby can be....and expensive, isn't it worth a few bucks to at least TRY it before you flame the guy...............Maybe it's BS, maybe it works, haven't had time to try it myself, but until and unless I do I have to give the guy the benefit of the doubt and a little respect at least....Everybody deserves that much and he's not asking you for money, just an open mind............jeez

b4icu
What "buying spots and clocks" has to do with this? You found out that all the rest, like directional cables, burn in, cryogenic treat and skin effect were un useful so you dig the buying spots and clocks In a forgotten drawer, never yet used with speaker cables, maybe it will work now?

>>>>So, just because you declare these things irrelevant, hotshot, doesn’t make it so. Nor does ignoring metal purity enhance your self proclaimed expertise. Maybe if you close your eyes and hold your breath and stomp your foot they’ll just go away.

We see this sort of thing from time to time, where someone is working in a vacuum without access to or ignoring all the advancements that have been made in cable performance, fuse performance, and power cord performance. It’s called Stove Piping. 🏭 I did not create reality.

The cable I’m considering is actually closer to 2/0 awg, it has an area of 65mm, and he has the tools to crimp the spades on so I’m probably just going to go with that. I have good clearance around the binding posts on both the amp and the speakers.


separately:
What I don’t understand about this thread is that, usually, when a new product is brought to market everyone says "listen to it", "it depends on your system", "you’re the only one that can say for sure". Yet I’m suggesting I’m going to do exactly that and I’m branded a "sucker".

It’s a cheap experiment. If it does half of what’s claimed then great. If it does nothing, there’s nothing much lost. I’m going into this with a doubtful, but open, mind.

Mr. conradnash
The thicker wire to fit a banana plug I know of, is 8 AWG. 
You better check that the wires / cables are sold to you, are what they claim they are. I wrote on some car cable kit (US made) that were fake in size! they claimed a 4 AWG taht turned out to be an 8 AWG...
Try to keep the transaction between the thick cabe (4 AWG or 0 AWG), to the binding post as shord and of the the best qality.
Do not trust poor connections or lose once. Some of you here have too good equipment to risk it with a $100 DIY advanture.

Mr. kosst_amojan

What is it you have about speaker cables? Nothing. 

It's all against, right?
What is it that you scrawl out under your stone all the sudden after six pages of this thread is going on?

What firm is that supporting you, that got all the sudden scared from being exposed?

At the time you are shouting all over NO, you better come up with something to explain this speaker cable mystery. In other word, please say what YES.

This is the pasta party. Not the "Antipasti" party, which is a small pasta with a negative attitude. This is mirror time.

What "buying spots and clocks" has to do with this? You found out that all the rest, like directional cables, burn in, cryogenic treat and skin effect were un useful  so you dig the buying spots and clocks In a forgotten drawer, never yet used with speaker cables, maybe it will work now?

I'm assuming that the spade comments are for my benefit? If so, thanks.

I can get the cable unterminated and use a cable reducer to drop the cable down to 4awg. Once it's 4awg it'll fit in a banana plug. Or I can use a distribution block to join 0awg and 4awg and run a very short length of 4awg direct to the terminal on both ends. Would either of those approaches work?

Mr.  kosst_amojan

We will see when the first guys here will return after giving it a shot and share with us their impression. A little patient and we are there.

I've seen what happened with some friends who listened, didn't doubted me for a minute, and ended up very happy.

My two cents on spades ending for speaker cables:

They tend to get lose after some time. A continuous maintenance of fastening the binding posts is required. Banana plugs are way better.

For those who try to implement a thick cable (4 gauge or thicker), the spades that can fit the cable are too large to fit the binding posts. You may lose on that contact between the spade and the binding post some of what you gain from a thicker cable.

For me, if an amp or speaker is not fitted for a banana plug, I'll would avoid it!

Mr.  khiak
Thanks. The data was passed to Mr. Rodolphe at Goldmund.
I assume that they will replay tomorrow or Mon. 
Its is 6 pm now in Swiss, 7pm here in Israel.
Sorry for the delay...

The SN is at the bottom of the amp, so I managed to have 2 SN. Do you need the SN on all the amps.
1) 80719382
2) 80518968
many thanks for your help.

Hi b4icu,
sorry for the late reply as I was not home. I have 5 Telos 600. 4 fo

Mr.  khiak
Could you please provide me the serial numbers of your  Goldmund Telos 600 amplifiers?
Mr. Rodolphe from Goldmund Swiss asked me about it.
I'm waiting for his replay, but the S/N may help.
Thanks
It is a mystery that this second Swiss firm, with extremely high end products, dosn't provide the data on their DFs.

What gauge is your poweramps secondary windings? This size defines how much power your amp will be able to push out. Forget about the amps max wattt rating, it is the amps dynamic capasity that defines the need of wiregauge.

Mine has 2x9awg windings pr side so I`m running 7awg solid to the woofers

 Hi b4icu,
I cannot find the DF in the Goldmund Telos 600 manual. The cable length is 1.5 m. Thanks 

@b4icu
Honestly speaking, I have tried some different M1 settings in combination with the ribbons, but to my ears no major differences. I'm working out of town, so I can't check what the last settings are. All I can confirm that even IF there are differences, I can't distinguish them from each other with my ears, and using ribbons. In my case, other factors have a much bigger influence on the overall sound, and mainly with regards to room acoustics. Main reason for acquiring the M1 is related to dynamics and transparency. I can only judge by listening, I'm not an electrical engineer so I have to go with what my ears tell me.