Hiendmuse....make sure you order the proper rear counterweight for your arm. |
Thanks Stringreen,I ordered the 180 gram weight as that is what is recommended for my Lyra Titan-i cartridge on the VPI website. |
Stringreen I assume you used the same Mint protractor for the 10.5 arm as for the new 3D arm, correct? I figured both arms have the same overhang dimensions. |
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Anyone set up cartridge with redesigned counterweight for the 3D tonearm? If you did I'd like to know how it worked out overall. Thanks. |
Hiendmuse....I have the redesigned counterweight. Harry and I went round and round with it. The Counterintuitive does not fit on the rear counterweight that I must use for my cartridge (Benz LPS - very heavy). When I complained to the Chief at the very difficult (almost impossible) adjustability of the counterweight on the 3D arm without the C/A, ( I had one relatively early) he asked me to "sit tight" for him to think about it. The result is the new counterweight which is really the old one with additions to adjust for additional weight. Harry said it sounds the same, but with increased adjustability. The Counterintuitive is really a "MUST" for that arm or you'll be looking fondly at the highest cliff to jump from. |
My 3d arm/VPI DD that recently arrived came with counterweight that was very similar to the old counter weight on the Classic arm but with thumbscrew instead of hex screw and with Counterintuitive preinstalled. Very easy to adjust now. |
I got a Counter Intuitive for my 10.5i tonearm but found it would not adjust properly when using my Fozgometer- the readings were very erratic. When I removed the Counter Intuitive from the counterweight I was able to adjust azimuth and got much more stable readings on the Fozgometer. I'm hoping that the redesigned counterweight will allow me to adjust azimuth without going crazy. |
I found the Foz to be accurate and easy to use ...certainly better than the rod method.
Suteetat...you must have the regular rear counterweight. Did you touch base with VPI as to which cartridge you are using? They made the determination for me and it works great. |
Stringreen, yes, I told them about cartridges that I plan to use with the arm and this is what they sent to me with the table. I currently have Air Tight PC-1 Supreme on the table, other possible cartridges, Lyra Atlas and Ikeda Kai |
not to hijack this discussion too much, but i STILL wish i had gotten a VPI TNT-6 with a METAL platter when i had the chance. i love the twin motor drive and the simple elegant design it represents. with all due respect the JMW arms are GOOD ENOUGH for me. now someone just has to offer one to me at a reasonable price... LOL. |
Stringreen, are you using the anti-skate device with the 3D arm? |
I listened with and without (Harry you could have devised a way to remove the devise without removing the rear counterweight and spending an hour or so to reset the arm.... ) anyway, I prefer the sound without a/s and am enjoying it that way. |
Stan (Stringreen), fwiw, I use one donut on the weight bearing arm of the AS device. It's very light ... hardly noticeable. I don't know if my rig sounds better or worse. All I can say is that the stylus wear pattern on my prior "main" cartridge was uneven when I didn't use it.
I think my Kleos is wearing evenly. It just came back from Lyra/Japan for a check-up and minor adjustment. I've been trying to get more info about stylus wear. Problem is the Lyra craftmen who make my cartridge don't speak English and I don't speak Japanese. Trying to get more info from Jonathan Carr.
Btw, Lyra did the check-up/adjustment for no-charge. Very nice people. |
Stringreen I agree, it would be much more convenient if VPI had devised a quick release for the anti-skate from the tonearm instead of having to remove the counterweight and completely readjusting- a complete waste of time to check anti-skate vs. no anti-skate. Even a "T" at the end of the line with a slot to fit in and out of the side of a small clamp would be fine. |
As much as I hate to say it, I think I'm finally done with VPI.
After waiting 3 months for my new arm, with no communication on delays from VPI, I finally get my 10" arm for my Classic3 today and upon unboxing it,
one of the sideweights had popped off, looks to be secured with just glue, no threads etc (on a 2500.00 arm wand?) Then I realize that the sideweights are too large to clear the VTA tower, indicating they put the large ones from the Classic Direct on my arm. REALLY?
Then I find out the counterweight won't work with my cartridge, did not come with a counterintuitive at all, and the manual's about half written
(This is not just drop it on the old one and go). You have to replace the spike assembly, which is not that easy and even replace the incorrect height arm rest as well......both require an allen and patience, then you have to install the new ones.......
I go look on VPI's site and it speciifically says "For Lyra Kleos use 160Gram weight).....really???? Everyone involved in this transaction knew what my cartidge was.....
Now I have a dismantled table with an arm that won't even pivot without banging into the VTA tower......
I just can't believe that everytime I buy something from these guys, this type of stuff is the result..... |
All to common of a tale. I have heard about things like this with VPI all the time from various dealers. Many of their loyal dealers have been dropped because VPI "didn't like the way they did business" with their products. Sorry Stringreen, but there are better 'tables to be had at any price point other than VPI. |
I had problems with the 3D Arm and with the VPI response.
I'm going with a different manufacturer for my next turntable/arm purchase. |
Good for you Maxh, amateurs don't belong in this business. |
For this money one could buy Triplanar or Graham or Reed or Dynavector or whatever.
Why inferior vpi? |
I received my new 10" 3D tonearm. Unfortunately the 180 gram counterweight that came with it apparently is the type for the thinner metal JMW tonearm- the opening is too small to fit the thicker diameter 3D tonearm. The thumbscrew that came with it does not fit (has the smaller hex head), and did not come with a Counter Intuitive.
The 180 gram weight is recommended by VPI on their website for the 3D arm and a Lyra Titan-i, but I'm thinking that this may be too heavy. I am using a lighter counter weight for my metal 10.5i arm- the weight is further away from the pivot and closer to the end. i sent Harry an email and hopefully this will be resolved soon. I am looking forward to setting this arm up. |
I happen to be a big fan of VPI. I own a hot-rodded basic Classic with a Classic 3 base and early version Classic 3 SS wand. Yes, ... I ordered a new azimuth ring because the stock ring didn't clear the VTA tower, but that's on me because the Classic 3 upgrade was a DIY job. Other than that ... no problems.
By no means am I taking sides here. In fact I am so concerned that a great USA company could be messing up with the little stuff, I sent Mat Weisfeld an e mail asking him read this thread. I have my own personal theories why this is happening, but it's better for Mat, Harry, Mike and Jack to sort this out for themselves ... and I am sure they will.
Cheers,
Bruce |
Mat emailed me very early this morning (2:30am) after I sent my last thread immediately responding to my email to Harry and said he will be sending me a new counterweight for the 3D arm on Monday. I have found that VPI offers very good customer service, although sometimes it can take a little longer than at other times, but they have always come through and solved any challenges in a very satisfactory manner. |
Hiendmuse ... your last post makes me happy. The folks at VPI are good people. Sometimes their bent on innovation gets in the way of taking care of the little things that make such a difference. |
Maxh, 3 good friends have gone through similar situations, one of them going on for months and months. Amazingly, the only one of them who posts on this forum is very hesitant to chronicle his long saga with VPI for fear that they will recognize his post and punish him by never clearing up the situation. He needs it fixed so he can sell it. A shame a company can get away with this. |
Kiddman, With rapid communication through the internet, I think companies are going to have to pay a bit more attention to customer service. |
And why would I punish anyone for wanting their system to work. Bruce, thank you for letting me know about this thread, the funny part is I was in the middle of fixing some of these problems before I know they existed. I'm not going to fight you guys, I just want you to enjoy your tables and your experience. Clearly we haven't accomplished that with everyone and I'm sorry that is the case and would love to rectify that. We are a small company that has grown to a very large one in a short period of time. We are trying to meet all demands and yes we have hit problems that were unexpected. We dont want to leave anyone high and dry.
Bifwynne you nailed it, Sometimes their bent on innovation gets in the way of taking care of the little things that make such a difference. That is so true, we have been tied up with the Nomad at the entry level point (I know entry level is still expensive at $1,000 but we did the best we could) while still expanding on the high-end at $30,000. Also, all of this is still being made in America. We are bent on innovation because this industry is exciting and there is always something new that we can try to achieve and bring to our customer. If we fail we will fix it
if might take longer than expected but it will get done and you will get quality!
Good news is the angry emails and this thread has led to me taking a closer look at the arm and the counter weight. The weight initially came WITHOUT the counter intuitive, however, since it was difficult to adjust we ADDED the Counter Intuitive and it SHOULD come on all 3D arms (that being said Harry does not use the Counter Intuitive but Harry has set up arms on a daily basis for 35+ years). To show how serious I am about this and upset about the bad taste this has let in everyones mouth I have thrown out all of the counter weights that do not fit the Counter Intuitive so my guys on the floor cant possibly make this mistake. Also, if your 3D arm counter weight did not come with the Counter Intuitive let us know and we will take action because that is what you deserve.
Hiendmuse, the reason yours didnt go out today is because it was yours that I noticed this problem with. I asked my build guy on the floor where the Counter Intuitive was and he said they dont fit
. WTF! So you will be getting a proper counter weight with the Counter Intuitive. (Im not totally sure who you are since I had emailed 3 different people at 2:30 in the morning about the 3D).
Judyazblues, Im going to bite my tongue and just say youre comments were rude. Despite your foul attitude Id still buy a drink and invite you to listen with us at the factory because that is the type of people we are.
Mystery Person, please let me know what the issue is I promise we wont punish you!
Maxh, sorry to hear youll be leaving the VPI family I hope we can either fix your experience or have you join us again down the road.
Also, so everyone knows this isnt just for the forum I have posted the following to our facebook page. (link below)
https://www.facebook.com/vpiindustries/photos/a.10150518506800918.372190.313369810917/10152234620880918/?type=1&theater
Email us at sales@vpiindustries.com and well be looking.
Thanks! -MW |
Mat ... It is rare indeed for a company to step up and say what you just posted. I hope my fellow VPI TT owners will be as gracious in accepting your explanation and apology as you were in offering it.
Bruce |
Based on Mat's email to me at 2:30AM, I am not done w/ VPI. I was
just momentarily pissed like many in this thread have been.....
I have faith that they will resize my sideweights so they don't bang
into my VTA tower and that they will come up with a counterweight
that fits, will work with my cartridge and maybe give me a counterintuitive
if I'm lucky.
VPI has their issues, but it's obvious that at their core, you have
"good people" doing their best ...but struggling with the small details
and releasing product probably before they really should. This results
in "field testing" with the consequence being the customer dropping major
coin only to end up with a music free evening coupled with excess
teeth-gnashing.....
Here is an interesting statistic for those who might be interested.
First of all, I think Stereophile magazine is to be taken with a grain of
salt at best when it comes to recommended components.....but I find it
very interesting that if you take the value of all class A turntables listed
and divide it by their number, the average turntable in class A costs 39550.00
and 90 percent of them DO NOT INCLUDE A TONEARM....
In that group is the VPI Classic 3 that does include a tonearm and it did not
take the 3D arm to get it a Class A rating from Michael Fremer......
Put a 3D Arm on it and you are still around 8000 retail and you have arguably
one of the best arms out there.......
A 3D armed Classic 3 still at 1/5th the cost of all the armless class A tables!!
Stick that on your facebook page VPI.......
Once I get my arm fixed, I will be a VPI fan once again........ |
Hi Mat,
Thanks for your response. We spoke yesterday (my name is Gary). We also talked about a different platter and bearing.
How long will it take to machine a new 180 gram counterweight to fit the 3D arm and also accommodate the CounterIntuitive? Hopefully this will also include the new fine counterweight and thumbscrew.
You have my email and phone # from previous emails.
Thank you! |
Attention boys and girls...the 3D tonearm has larger side weights now...I don't know when they changed but the difference is worth doing. I understand that the smaller weights can be modified. |
It is good to see the 3D arm finally settling into a final configuration with regard to the design.
I would consider one now, if I was starting out with a new VPI turntable.
I am very satisfied with my TNT MKIII and original JMW-10 arm, that I have owned since 1999. It is my last turntable, and was top of the line when I bought it.
VPI turntables wear well, and last! |
VPI have been in business for a long time. I have had 2 tables in the past and they sound excellent.
I wonder how these fundamental design errors can happen?
Sometimes perhaps better to wait til everything is perfect, than release on time in complete.
But, then Graham has copped a lot of criticism in the delay of his new tonearm, no doubt due to it not being quite right.
we consumers are never happy :-) |
What is the material they are printing this out of, I am curious about the resonant properties of the printed assembly and wand in comparison to their traditional configuration. |
Great Service- thank you Mat!!
I just received the new counterweight this morning before 10am from VPI which was Fed Ex'd overnight. Now I have the latest 180 Gram counterweight with fine adjustment and CounterIntuitive installed for my new 3D arm.
I'll be working on installing up my cartridge over the weekend. |
Good Hiendmuse....without that new counterweight, the 3D arm is a BEAR to adjust properly. |
So why should a 3D composited form perform better than a cast or machined version made from the same material? After all, there is no crystalline structure at the molecular level. Such material is amorphous.
Seems gimmicky, as in we do to because we can not be uses it makes scientific sense.
And this from a very happy Aries2/10.5 owner.
Steve |
A printed arm would not be inherently better; it could be cheaper to make if the production run is quite small (no need to machine the tools needed to cast the arm).
If the arm were made with some kind of complex internal structure to increase rigidity, it is possible to print an arm that would be impossible to make by other processes, but, I don't believe the VPI arm is made that way (at least VPI has not been touting such an advanced development). It appears to be a somewhat conventional arm made from epoxy resin. |
Larryi...it is made that way....read the Fremmer review |
Another happy VPI customer here and I'd like to extend my thanks to Mat publicly as he deserves. Mine was an issue with an SDS unit not a 3D arm, but I found all the VPI bashing in this thread quite upsetting so I decided to post here.
I find it absolutely incredible that Mat finds the time to personally answer all these emails and is trying his best to rectify the problems while having a company to run. I do understand the frustration expressed in some of the posts, but VPI products have always been superb and are undeniably great value given their price despite the wrinkles the company is experiencing due to its dynamic growth. I will continue to support VPI for years to come for the joy their products have given me, their reliability, and the company's ultimate dedication to their customers.
Since Mat took over the management of VPI I have personally seen only positive changes, and I have no doubt that it will only get better. Thank you, Mat, for your dedication, incredible customer service, hard work, and the passion to continue carrying on VPI's legacy.
Marek
|
Well, I started to set up my 3D tonearm and ran into a snag. After installing the new tonearm bearing and tonearm rest, I found that the azimuth weight on the left side of the arm hits the VTA tower- there is not enough clearance between the tonearm and VTA tower for the tonearm to move!
Very frustrating!
I sent Mat an email. In the meantime I found that the VPI website shows a BLACK colored VTA tower with substantially more room between the 3D tonearm and VTA tower. This is a different design. My VTA tower and assembly is the silver color, so I believe the fix for this is getting the black tower (hopefully).
Stringreen, did you have this challenge with your 3D arm setup? |
Hiendmuse ... I had the same problem when I installed the Classic 3 tone arm base. VPI sent me a medium sized azimuth ring which clears the VTA tower perfectly. These are the kinds of annoying little problems that VPI needs to direct some attention to. Trust me ... once you get beyond these PITA small issues, you will be a believer and a happy camper.
Mat ... if you catch this post, hopefully you'll get your production and delivery guys up to speed. As I commented before, ARC uses a check list card which requires a manual sign-off on each critical stage of assembly, testing, inspection, packaging, etc. The QA card is packed with each unit that is shipped. Maybe VPI should use a similar system. Frankly, shipping a tone arm with the wrong azimuth ring and/or wrong counter-weight should be avoided at all costs. Mistakes like that undo all the good work and innovation that you are trying to achieve. |
Hiendmuse....no such issue.... I suspect that you have the larger side weights (the new ones) and I don't. When I sent pictures of my setup, VPI said that my side weights are fine ...but didn't really tell me they are the larger new ones or older ones. The larger weights give the arm more stability (although I really can't complain the arm tracks like a train). |
I have 35+ years of different models and slight changes that Harry made that I have to keep up with. I have been trying to standardize everything so current and future models will always be seamless. Actually I'm going to copy a part of the email I sent to Hiendmuse:
"Yes, the VTA towers were adjusted in their dimensions. From silver to black... of course this vital bit of information wasn't apparently important enough for Harry to share with me. (It isn't his fault he is doing the best he can to teach me everything.) Sometimes I like to think this is dad's way of forging me to run this company long term through fire and dropping little hand grenades for me. We can either change your VTA base which will make it so the side weights you have work, or we can shave the side weights on your current 3D arm down."
Also, we can avoid this problem when we are aware of the turntable model the 3D arm is going on. A lot of 3D arms that shipped out to dealers were for their own stocking purposes, which is an easy swap on the current models (the products dealers are stocking). On the bright side, you all can consider yourself pioneers in the journey to perfecting the setup and listening experience with the 3D arm :)
On a side note: Actusreus thank you VERY much for the kind words! I appreciate when people share constructive criticism but also love the positive reinforcement! |
Mat emailed me late last night and said there are different clearances between the black and silver color towers, so I requested the black VTA tower instead of having the side azimuth weights shaved down.
Also, the 180 gram counterweight specified for my Titan-i cartridge seems to be too heavy when including the weight of the CounterIntuitive, so a lighter counterweight is needed. The standard counterweight is a tight fit on the 3D arm so making slight and precise adjustments without the CounterIntuitive will be a real challenge and a test of one's patience.
Mat has been very responsive and eager to help take care of the 3D tonearm issues. I am impressed with his timely emails and willingness to address these glitches. Mat and VPI are a class act. |
I just think it is very cool that a son would take over his father's business and continue to look for ways of improving it. Congratulations Mat.
SME is another example of a son having been groomed to take over his father's turntable/tonearm business.
I wish you and VPI much success. |
I finally installed my cartridge onto the 3D tonearm for my Super Scoutmaster Rim Drive Reference table with Classic platter. I drove to VPI (about an hour from my home) and they helped get the right counterweight and made a few preliminary adjustments to the arm (Thank you Leo!!) as I was shipped a 180 gram weight for the JMW metal arm included with the 3D arm which does not fit on the 3D arm. They also changed the mounting base for my VTA tower, as the 3D arm was hitting the side of the tower on the original baseplate. The 180 gram weight is way too heavy for the Titan-i cartridge which was previously recommended on the VPI website for this cartridge. I believe I ended up with a 140 gram weight with a small fine counterweight adjustment attached.
The CounterIntuitive that came with the 3D arm was too tight on the counterweight and very difficult to adjust even after putting on some oil, so I did away with it, which made adjusting VTF & azimuth easier. I also started using the SoundSmith cartridge screws (aluminum) but found that the high profile made it more difficult to adjust azimuth, so I ended up using regular screws with tiny washers which came with the SoundSmith screws. All in all I spent about 10 hours installing the cartridge, as the Mint LP protractor is extremely precise with very thin lines.
I used the Mint LP protractor for this arm, as I had also used it for the 10.5i tonearm. I used a Fozgometer, a CartridgeMan digital force gauge and digital level, a magnifying glass and a good hand-held LED light (Larry brand).
I will make a separate review of the 3D arm, but my initial listening shows that this arm brings more music, more information, is tonally more accurate, and is more detached from the speakers with more impact and better attack, sustain, and decay.
I want to thank Mat and Harry at VPI for their help, support, and hospitality. They were truly great to deal with and helped correct the glitches with the 3D arm. I was also invited to Harry's house to listen to his various listening rooms with different systems- I thought I was in audio heaven- it was great to listen and spend some time there while my tonearm and turntable were being adjusted and corrected. Harry is truly a music lover and audiophile of the highest order. Thank you again Harry & Mat!!! You guys rock!!! |
Okonrad.....I also have a 3D, but was told that my arm has the "old" side weights...that there are new larger side weights now, however the tower has to be changed to a new black colored one to accommodate the larger space so that the new weight doesn't bump into it. Does your Atlas play well? ...don't know if I should do the Atlas or Etna.... |
Does it ever. I have a Kleos mono too, but the Atlas is very addictive. Been listening to the Cassandra Wilson Miles vinyl issue that Blue Note just release. Holy s&$?!
I have the larger counterweights that don't take the counterintuitive. They are hard to work with but I have alot of experience in setting up tonearms, so it was fine. Now that everything is dialed in I don't want to change anything. |
I did hear the comparison between the 3D arm and the regular arm(on Mikey's site?), and was suprised at how many chose the regular arm. I don't know the cost difference, but thought it to be a definite improvement. |
