New to Turntables

Technics SL1210 mk7 ($900 new), separate phono stage (schiit mani cost $120). 

I'd guess that the Yamaha's preamp is better, but its subjective and the only way to know for sure is try both and see what you like.  You may find that the impedance of one or the other mates better with the 2M Red.  

Standard MM input is 47k Ohms nowadays by default, very few phono stages will give optional load impedance for MM.

Phono cable capacitance can make a difference for MM cartridges, use low capacitance cables.

Try both and see. Bearing in mind the one in the table is brand new and will take some hours to smooth out and sound its best. Even the one in the Yamaha, while it has been powered it hasn't had any signal running through it. Probably the differences will be obvious enough this won't matter but keep this in mind in case they are close.

@chakster

When you say, "low capacitance" cables, are you speaking in reference to the RCA connection or the ground connection?

I have two sets of mid-fi RCA connectors and haven't decided which to use.

I have Audioquest Ruby X3 and Monster Cable Reference 2, both circa 1995. Then use whatever ground cable comes with the record player.

You have to check the manual for MM cartridge where you will see operation conditions such as load resistance of the phono stage (in Ohms), overall phono cable capacity (in pF) from your cartridge to the phono stage.


Looking at phono cable manual you can find specs in pF (cable capacity).

Cable length will change cable capacity (not RCA connectors). High quality modern phono cables are low capacitance. For example if you will look at the specs for Zu Audio phono cable here you will see “Cp ~94pF” 

@chakster


Just being curious, would it hurt to make my own ground cable? I have a single 5 foot strand of Audioquest Type-4.  What if I twist all four conductors together and crimp on a spade?

I am putting the player in my entertainment center.  So the ground cable would end up running across multiple power cables and other audio cables. I fear interference with the 24 gauge wire they'll likely supply.

have at it !,,,, re the ground wire…

Just being curious, would it hurt to make my own ground cable? I have a single 5 foot strand of Audioquest Type-4. What if I twist all four conductors together and crimp on a spade?

You don't have to twist 4, ground wire can be single wire soldered to the spades, the function of this wire is to connect (audio signal does not go through the ground wire).

Whichever sounds better to you.
What a concept.
What MC said, break in to be sure.

@fuzztone


I am not denying that concept.  However, I like to take an 80/20 reading on folks who may have used one or the other.  I can't know unless I ask. :)

@chakster

I suppose I could strip out an individual conductor, but I am not sure if spray foam Polyethylene is a sufficient shield against interference from other cables.

My understanding with ground wires, is that it offloads excess electrical signal from the main audio signal. Is this correct or am I over simplifying it?

My thought is using the geometry and multiple conductors in the Type-4 cable to offload that electrical signal faster than a 24 gauge multi-strand cable.

Turntable grounding is somewhat unique, and should go to that labeled screw at your phono input on the Yamaha. It doesn't have a thing to do with anything else.

@builder3  

Yes, but the option exists for two different connecting methods:

Option 1: Turn off Denon's built-in pre-amp. Connect RCA to RCA to Yamaha's Phono section. Connect GND from Denon player to GND on Yamaha.

Option 2: Turn on Denon's built-in pre-amp.  Connect RCA to RCA to the Yamaha on any available section.

I sort of get this feeling, after reading the Denon's manual online that the built in pre-amp is sort of a last resort method and that they prefer you connect to an external pre-amp.

Last resort? Yes, by and large. In your case though Yamaha, by and large means try and see. Same for ground. By and large just don't cut it. Good example, just got a new Origin Live Enterprise arm. Terrific arm. Hum in one channel. Hate hum, because you just never know where or what until you luck out and find it. In this case I decided to try and disconnect the ground. By and large that would yield horrible hum. In this case though I lucked out- hum eliminated. Why one channel not the other? Who knows? Why ungrounded dead quiet when it should be ruinously loud hum? Who cares? Not me!  

In your case for all we know the built in stage being built to eliminate such problems may well wind up being the better or at least more quiet way to go. Or not. Point being you can ask and ask and take polls and ask some more- and never ever know.  Until you try. 

I’d start with Option 1. Either way, the turntable is still designed to be grounded in the original manner, (I believe). Don’t reinvent the wheel unless it’s absolutely necessary.

Hello,
Yamaha phono stage will probably be better. Also, I like the idea of the Schiit Mani just to try it out. I own it for a cheap rig in my office and it works great. I would go with the Nagaoka MP110 instead of the Ortifon Red 2m. The Nag is a little more forgiving in my opinion. That what you need is forgiveness in sound. Also, with the Ortifon you might need to adjust the VTA if you can or get a different mat. With the Nag  it is very similar in size to the cheaper cartridges so no need to readjust the VTA. Basically what might happen is you might get more bass than you want with the Ortifon. If you can adjust the VTA I would go with the 2M blue. For an extra $150 it makes a big difference. People do this upgrade all the time because of the sonic impact. I hope this helped and best of all I have experienced this myself. 

simply try both, pick your preference.

my phono eq experiences:

main system:

had AT120 TT with switchable built in 'dinky' phono eq.

had McIntosh C28 SS Preamp, with phono stage, presumable better, right?

I preferred the dinky AT phono, sold the C28.

bought a vintage McIntosh Tube Tuner/Preamp, much prefer it's phono eq. Changed TT, arms. cartridges, love the mx110z's phono eq, thus use a SUT for MC so I can still use the mx110z's MM Phono EQ.
.................................

Office System:

added a TT with MM. Needed Phono EQ.

bought Cambridge Duo. did NOT like it.

bought a Pyle $14. phono eq, to use while looking for something better. Sounded darn good, sent the Cambridge back.

Changed to a Luxman with both MM and MC built-in. Prefer it, gave the Pyle to a friend.

who will mount the alternate cartridge?

I suggest a 2nd headshell so you can compare/use different cartridges.

it takes some inexpensive tools, and acquired skill to mount a cartridge, I suggest you practice with the stock cartridge first, then align the new one.

note in mm the distance, from the center of the center spindle, to the stylus tip of the factory mounted cartridge. that is called ’overhang’. you want the same distance, the same overhang spindle center to stylus tip for ANY cartridge you mount (on that particular TT).

then all the other parameters to get the best sound, stylus life, and avoid damaging your LPs.

https://audio-technica.com.au/latest-news/how-to/align-turntable-cartridge/

I like this headshell because it has adjustable azimuth if needed, for this and any future TT

https://www.ebay.com/itm/293416434592?hash=item4450fb7ba0:g:fWQAAOSwq4VeXaps

That “Pats Audio Adjustable Azimuth Headshell” is too expensive. At least for me, since I have 108 cartridges. Half are on headshells. I just buy the $7 aluminum headshells. I can add mass, adjust azimuth, easily file the slots longer, remove the forward lip, basically hack it to any configuration I need. I can buy 5 for your 1!

I never use those 2-point protractors. Way too finicky, too much trial and error, no way to customize the best alignment for the particular cartridge and stylus tip geometry. For a newbie, just an absolute lesson in futility and a nightmare. I use the free Conrad Hoffman Arc protractor that’s customized to my arm, my chosen alignment (Lofgren B, Lofgren A or Baerwald, or Stevenson) and my choice of recording quantity on the records.  Line up tip on the arc, make parallel to only ONE set of grids, tighten and DONE. I align many cartridges, takes about 3-5 minutes.

@elliottbnewcombjr  

After checking the specs on the cartridge that comes with the Denon Dp-450, I decided to get the Ortofon 2m red, mostly because the Denon has to  be changed out after only 400 hours of use.  That tells me it isn't a well made cartridge to wear out that fast. The Ortofon 2m red can surpass 1000 hours of use.

@wolfie62  

I have to admit that delving into the turntable arena is a lot more complicated that I had thought.

Back in the day, you just plugged the record player in, put the record on and hit play. Most were automatic when I was a kid. I later acquired a Technics turntable.  There wasn't an internet, so there wasn't any info on balancing, adjusting, calibrating or anything.  Since I worked in stereo sales, I knew enough to get a cartridge that could handle 20hz-20Khz and replaced the stock cartridge.

After doing research on what to do when my new player comes in...it's crazy.

I have to use a level to test all four corners of the player where I place it and ensure it's 100% level. Then balance the tone arm. Then use a protractor to align the cartridge. Then  balance the tone arm again. I am sweating from effort before I have even started. ;)

 The Ortofon 2m red can surpass 1000 hours of use.

No way, probably 600, it's an elliptical tip (not even nude).
1000 hrs is for shibata and related advanced profiles, but not for an elliptical. 
 
You will be disappointed after reading this article 

@chakster


Direct from Ortofon's website:

" Stylus lifetime: with proper care we find that up to 1000 hours is possible without degradation of performance. Please read about stylus care on our FAQ. "

That article is very informative, thx. Although, I do wonder how many people follow Jico's recommendation. That seems awfully short, especially if someone invested $10000 on a cartridge. One would have to start breaking down performance by dollar. Like, it might cost someone $25 to listen to an entire album (A and B side) based on wear/tear. ;) 

You should learn a bit about different stylus profiles, Micro Ridge stylus life span is ~2000 hrs, but this is the most expensive and most complicated stylus profile (just like Ortofon Replicant-100). But elliptical (and conical) are two cheapest profiles with very short life span. I’m giving you realistic numbers (600hrs for elliptical, 1000hrs for Shibata, 2000hrs for MicroRidge). If you want Ortofon cartridge look for higher morels than Red, look for the models with Shibata stylus. 

Personally, I wouldn't put any extra money in that turntable. You can buy a $450-500 turntable that comes with a better cartridge, no internal phono stage, no USB. Simpler and should sound better, too. Just my opinion.

Ok, so it all arrived and I set it up....for the most part.  I followed the instructions but the balancing of the tone arm was utter fail.

According to the instructions, you screw on the weight, set the anti-skate to 0. adjust the weight until the tone arm balances. Then set the inner weight scale to the downforce weight required for your cartridge and set the anti-skate to the same.  I did this three times with the exact same results.

The tone arm was too light and the anti-skate would cause the tone arm to swing quickly off the record.

Eventually, I gave up and just set the weights and anti-skate based on what the tone arm was doing.  If it is too light, it will skip or loop on any slight imperfection.  I increased the weight and lowered the anti-skate until play-through was consistent.

There is a good chance I am increasing the wear on the needle and the record itself.

The sound quality was better than I expected. I can see why people are going back to vinyl.  It has a depth that isn't easy to achieve in the digital world, even at high bit rates and resolutions.

There were some issues of harshness in the mid-high frequencies, like electric guitar riffs, or mid-range male vocals. I have chalked it down to break-in as it got better after about 2 hours of playing.

This should help you on how to set up your turntable!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM-aIDwfrhc

@yogiboy

Thanks.  I had actually watched this video. Even he eventually states that the weight recommendations are usually off and he used a digital scale....which...I just ordered. :)  So, it is to be hoped that I will resolve this part of the issue.  I also got an album weight in case there is some warping of these old albums.

@guakus, I have a Denon DP-300f turntable with built-in preamp. I read on several sites that this preamp is more for convenience than performance, so I would think the phono section on your Yamaha would give better sound.

The cables on my turntable are built in, so don’t allow using other cables.  Also, the cables are just RCA-type.  The manual states that the ground is built into the RCA cables, so there is no ground cable to connect.  My house was built without grounded outlets, so it really wouldn’t matter if I had a separate ground (not ideal, I know).

My turntable came with a Denon cartridge — everyone says this cartridge is not that good.  I bought an Ortofon 2M red and it is clearly superior to the Denon cartridge.  Someone on this site suggested I check out Grado cartridges and I did — bought one for about what the 2M red costs and I like it too.  

Enjoy your new TT!

@bob540   

Thanks!  The DP-450 requires separate RCA and ground connection. I am using some old Audioquest Ruby X3s and I am using a single run of Audioquest Type-4 cable, with a crimped on spade as my ground cable. I also got the Ortofon 2M Red.

At present, both the cartridge and the phono stage have to break in.  The only issue is, I am unable to clean the old records to any point where the crackle and pop are gone.  On some albums, it's so bad that you can't really experience the music.

I am wondering if my mismanagement of the tonearm balancing might be adding to the issue.  I ordered a tonearm downforce scale which should arrive today.  So I will correct that issue.  Although I wonder what it will affect.