My streamer, 10yrs old, stopped functioning. Now I am listening to CDs again with the transport of the older Accuphase DP-67 and Merason Frerot DAC. The combination sounds great, very detailed and transparent. Now I am wondering how much money I would need to spend on a new streamer to match that sound level and which brands and models to look for. Any suggestions, possibly also from people who know the Merason and/or Accuphase? I am using Qobuz for streaming, and wireless options would be great too. Thank you.
@riccitoneNo worries, I am not offended by anyone who is trying to help. I can appreciate that.
@mdaltonI guess the W4S version you have tried will have been similar to mine, though mine didn't have an internal dac. Upgrading my external dac to the Merason was a big improvement, but nothing compared to after having hooked up my Accuphase transport. The sound just 'feels right'.
@audphile1Great suggestions. The Merason dac with power supply is +2000 so that is a good starting point to try a few you mentioned. The internal dac of the Accuphase is also not bad at all, but the Merason sounds better to me. The ultimate aim, of course, is to replace the player with an at least similar sounding streamer, including internal SSD to store my own CDs. It may take while before I get there.
Sorry, I wasn’t clear. The W4S modified Sonos bypassed the internal DAC just like yours. So my comparison was of a stock sonos with digital out to benchmark, vs modified sonos out to benchmark. The dac’s sound dominated, which is what Benchmark would predict.
One other point of clarification. It appears that your modified Sonos was upsampling to 192k, so your nos dac takes that and outputs 192k I assume. But the Accuohase CD transport is 16 bit 44.1k limited, so if I understand your dac, it’s outputting 44.1k in that case. So those two should sound very different, I think.
Sorry, I wasn’t clear. The W4S modified Sonos bypassed the internal DAC just like yours. So my comparison was of a stock sonos with digital out to benchmark, vs modified sonos out to benchmark. The dac’s sound dominated, which is what Benchmark would predict.
One other point of clarification. It appears that your modified Sonos was upsampling to 192k, so your nos dac takes that and outputs 192k I assume. But the Accuohase CD transport is 16 bit 44.1k limited, so if I understand your dac, it’s outputting 44.1k in that case. So those two should sound very different, I think.
in other words, I don’t think you’re hearing the streamer, I think you’re hearing the upsampling, which you don’t like. am guessing the cd transport sounds more natural to you, but just a guess.
Might be true, I don't know. I like(d) my streamer but it doesn't function anymore, so that's why I need a new one. Bottom line is that I am trying to find one now that comes close to what I hear/like from my CD transport. That's all.
The one thing that’s factual and clearly knowable is what exactly is happening to the digital data stream in your two use cases. Without knowing that for sure, I believe it’s difficult to make a decision on what you want for a streamer, because your benchmark is not just the cd transport, it’s the delta (difference) between your old streamer and the transport. That’s why I was so persistent in asking you what your old streamer was. I’m pretty sure my analysis is correct, so it’s up to you to figure out what to do with that knowledge.
But if I am correct, and your aural memory is accurate as to your preferences (always a challenge for me), then my advice would be to get a streamer that does 0 processing to the native data stream. That doesn’t mean you’re limited to 44.1k, it just means you would be hearing the music in the format that it was mastered to be played in, thru the DAC that you like. (This goes back to what @benandersmay have been trying to get at a while ago, btw.)
As I said originally, I don’t think you need to spend $5k or anything close to that to get what you want. And I think that some of the high cost streamers may do alot of processing to the signal which may be the exact opposite of what you want.
Final point, I promise. To me, the Sonos example underscores the point I’ve been trying to make on this and several other threads. We all knew the Sonos DAC was mediocre at best back in the day, so every self-respecting audiophile who just started streaming with Sonos got themselves an external DAC. And then some folks pointed out that even as a transport, the Sonos was deeply flawed cuz it had tons of jitter. So a cottage industry arose of companies performing mods on the Sonos to address the known flaws. In certain cases, with some DACs, such mods were unnecessary and made no difference. In my view, this fundamental dynamic as it relates to current streamers is unchanged, almost 20 years later.
… my advice would be to get a streamer that does 0 processing to the native data stream. That doesn’t mean you’re limited to 44.1k, it just means you would be hearing the music in the format that it was mastered to be played in, thru the DAC that you like. (This goes back to what @benanders may have been trying to get at a while ago, btw.)
Sure. There are multiple issues here. From what I’m reading, the first issue is not knowing if the CD’s and streamed files are the same (bit depth, master source, etc.), second is comparing two different pairs of devices.
Once a streamer model is chosen, use ripped files of the CD’s for comparison - not a streaming service. If some EAC FLAC or WAV files from storage sound the same as the CD player, the culprit is probably your streaming service. If they sound different, then you’re still confounded by tandem variables (DAC —> streamer) even if bias isn’t in the equation.
@benandersthat’s a solid advice! I did this as well. For the comparison I used dbpoweramp to rip to uncompressed FLAC. The software is free if you use just the basic features. CD rom drive is a $40 LG external unit. Nothing fancy.
Thanks, makes sense! Now just need to find the right streamer model that can be tried at home in my system. And then trying to eliminate confounders...
BTW, I was the OP on one of the recent streamer posts. I ended up buying a lightly used N150 for $2K. Very happy with my decision… perfect form factor, great sound & love the conductor app, particularly through my iPad.
I also use Qobuz. I would rank the sound of my system as follows:
@stievusYes, very happy with price… when I saw it on TMR as a trade in, jumped on it immediately.
My CD player is a Marantz CD6007, attached via digital coax to my Chord Qutest, with the N150 attached via USB. Thanks.
Whatever streamer you decide upon, make sure the user interface is easy and even fun to use. If it is a chore to work, you'll HATE it every single time you use it, and eventually you'll find yourself spinning discs instead. If the Aurrender UI is top notch then for your money, I'd go with one of those.
That the $299 WiiM Pro can offer a superb app while many of those selling streamers for four figures don't is telling.
I don't think I saw what streaming service the OP uses in these posts, but if you are using Tidal, a streamer that supports Tidal Connect natively makes life simple and enjoyable.
Many are waiting and hoping for a "Qobuz Connect" app to arrive soon - and for streamers to support it.
@benanders that’s a solid advice! I did this as well. For the comparison I used dbpoweramp to rip to uncompressed FLAC. The software is free if you use just the basic features. CD rom drive is a $40 LG external unit. Nothing fancy.
@audphile1would the FLAC’s sound better if ripped with a weightier optical drive, SOTA USB cable and laptop with LPS? I would suggest my pref:
Teasing only in good fun - promise - just couldn’t help myself 😜
I still use a 10-year-old Samsung bus-powered optical drive to a desktop through an old Canon scanner’s USB cable, files sound indistinguishable from the original CD’s played back on an array of CD players / setups (some of which are far blingier than mine). It was particularly informative to compare the two formats on AIO streamer+CD player devices, since same sound from such a device implies truly no [audible] underlying differences resulted from my generic ripping setup.
This would actually be a really good scenario for taking advantage of that Wiim Pro return policy you admire. A happy-measurements device that many people like and good software support, but near bottom-of-barrel cost-wise, and compared (albeit probably sighted and subjectively…) to a real nice CD player.
@stievus , it could be a straightforward way to toe the water before diving in the deep end? If your expectations don’t get the best of you and your ripped FLAC’s do sound similar to the CD’s, that would rule out a more costly streamer. Only thing you’d be missing are the club points and bragging rights from a given high end streamer manufacturer. 😉
Of course, even if an inexpensive streamer option like Wiim sounded different than your CD player, that wouldn’t insinuate it being the streamer, as the DAC could also have that role. Or depending on how deep you dive into component expectations/suspicions/synergies/etc, interaction of a specific streamer x DAC, or streamer x DAC x interconnects, or…
This is also an excellent chance to do blind testing, but that approach seems remarkably unpopular on Audiogon. It saved me a lot of money to redirect at demonstrably influential parts of my chain, but to each their own so no pressure implied!
@benanders LMAO. I’d love to compare the two files though - one ripped with my $40 LG and another with that high end drive. But I won’t be buying it to do it because I’m pretty sure it would be exact same 💩 as my $40 drive and I would have to return the fancy burner. And that would be unethical.
To make a wireless connection, is Is anyone of you using a TP link plugged into your router in one space and a slave unit put into the room the system is in, and from there to your streamer? Would that work for high resolution files?
I have a high speed 3 unit mesh system, 1 unit for each floor. I have 3 different streamers on wifi, one for each floor. None are wired to a mesh unit, in other word 100% wifi, and they all receive high res files without issue. I was prepared to get an additional mesh unit to site it right next to streamer and connect with cable if necessary, but was not needed.
btw, my home network is completely thru the mesh. In other words, router to base mesh unit. then switch to same mesh unit. then everything else on network plugs to switch (e.g., small green computer which is my server, ethernet connection for my one wired streamer, etc.).
Because of all kinds of security issues, it appears I cannot install a mesh network in the house. That means I would need a streamer with WiFi connectivity. The Métronome DSS2 ticks all the boxes, but is expensive and not available on the used market. The previous model, the DSS1 has WiFi connectivity but uses a dongle antenna for that. So it is not integrated in the streamer itself. I have no experience with using a dongle, so I don't know if this would work in the same way as built-in WiFi. Maybe some of you have an opinion on this? Also, perhaps you have other suggestion for streamer with WiFi? Thanks
- Do a wifi speed test near your router, and then where your streamer will be to determine whether you need anything to enhance speed (i.e., to get an idea of how much speed you lose with distance).
- A dongle is just a design feature; a Raspberry Pi has wifi capability without the need for a dongle. The three wifi streamers i currently use all have dongles. It’s just how they implement wifi.
- If you need something to enhance speed, I don’t see any reason why your original thought - TP Link with extender - wouldn’t work. I use the mesh system network rather that my router’s network because I have 3 floors and my router is in the basement.
oh, one more thought, to emphasize. You don’t need to spend alot for wifi streamers. Am pretty sure that all 5 of the units unde $1k I mentioned do wifi. Finally, I highly recommend you keep the server separate from the streamer. just as you’re keeping the dac separate from the streamer.
Does anyone know if a higher end wifi streamer is better able to 'neutralize' the lower quality of the wireless connection (vs wired) than a cheaper streamer?
Assuming the speed coming in is much higher than this?
Get a mesh network. It’s inexpensive. Check EERO on amazon.
You will improve your internet coverage throughout the living space and you can place one node in close enough proximity to your audio rack that you can either go wifi or wired. Keep in mind that wifi implementation in the streamer will possibly matter. It’s essentially another source of noise. But…the Auralic Aries G1 that I had few years ago sounded slightly better using wifi. Auralic pays special attention to the WiFi implementation though so keep that in mind.
63mbps is not great, but is more than enough for high res music if it doesn’t fluctuate much (video is much more demanding). For comparison, I’m getting over 375 in our mbr right now, and that’s probably the slowest of any room in the house. But it’s all about the fluctuations; if you get a rock solid over 50, you shouldn’t have dropouts.
You have excellent gear in Europe look at a 432evo server they are modular and upgradable you can start with their entry level standard and then upgrade to any of the higher models
We have tested the Aeon vs a 25k Innous statement next gen and the Aeon Was just as good.
We tested vs a 12kaurender and the Aeon was better.
Our servers compare to much more expensive products and easily match or exceed their performance.
Actually, I am hesitating between the Volumio Rivo and the Metronome DSS1 which is much more expensive but I can get for a good price. It's from a high-end french company.
based on quick look at their website, doesn’t look like Metronome does wifi, so you should make sure. But also much more limited regarding high res sample rates, both pcm and dsd; only 192k and dsd64,vs 768k dsd256 for Volumio.
Yes it does with a usb WiFi antenna. Should be the same as built-in WiFi. Not sure if I would need dsd and more than 192k. List price was €3490 versus €990 for the Volumio. Something will account for the price difference....
Look into a used Auralic Aries G1. Does wifi, caching, linear power supply. Nice user interface as well. It’s slightly brighter sounding but not to a degree to become offensive. Within the right system and paired with a good dac it will be very good.
Being the older model, I think you should be able to pick it up at a reasonable price. Auralic is highly regarded.
Thanks, the Auralic G1 looks interesting and on the used market affordable. You say it's at the bright side. I guess my Merason Frerot dac can handle that. But does it also have an Android app?
You know that’s a good point. When i had it I don’t think they offered android version. Worth checking it out though. It’s been few years without Auralic for me and I can’t tell you for sure.
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