Finally, something in black! |
Very ugly not up to MINI 2 cabinet although im sure there good. |
JV on Avguide stated in his review of the M5 that the sweet spot is small, did anyone notice that when hearing the Q5 in Vegas?
JV stated it the closest he has heard a cone speaker sound like an electorstatic. |
Changster,
you can find a review here
http://www.avguide.com/blogs/jonathan-valin |
So how did these speakers sound at CES? There has been no writeups yet on these post-CES. |
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Magico-Merging-Technologies-and-Matan |
personally, i still prefer Boulder amp than MBL amp. just very personal I guess, there is a lapse or fall off in the mid range down to mid bass |
you are right...only MBL mono block can control the 101E but then you are stuck with the signature sound of MBL and no other brands. isn;t it fun ???
on top, MBL's poweramp is by far less dynamic and density than Boulder |
Kirbyfel,
Which Boulder amps did you audition with the MBL 101Es? I find the 101Es require a certain amount of bass control to integrate the woofer with the rest of the speaker. Also, did you audition the 101E positioned out into the room? I find the sonic presentation of the radial speaker to be very natural and immersive as I would if there were musicians in the room. |
thanks Kirbyfel
have you heard the 101E with the biggest MBL monos ?
I ask because if they are not perfectly controlled, the bass is very boomy ... |
hi there, how do they compare with 101e ? I have a fortune in comparing these speakers.
I will say as follows :-
101E's tweeter very open and airy with 360 degrees audition. beautiful and more "grand". 101E is really something I do not throw my credit card, its bass does not extend all to the way or sometimes, little boomy and rolling off. It does not cohere with the mid range or mid-bass and let alone, the bass sounds alone. Sorry to say but hard to find a description.
Magico 6 : tweeter is very open and airy too. I personally do not know where the music comes out when u close your eyes and enjoy. Its bass is a slam, goes all the way and far extending. I never have any boom or resonance in my room.
just my 2 cents
Overall, coherence in Magico 6 is better than 101e, IMO |
HI BVDiman..
sorry my mistake when I said, comparing side by side wiht Magico, Wilson Audio Alex 2.2 and not Maxx 3. I got mixed up with the model names. in local dealers, both of these Magico 6 and Alexdandria 2.2 are almost the same price tag. |
Who really cares its another OVERPRICED MAGICO!! |
Does anyone know the size of the Q5's? |
Hi Kirbyfel,
how do they compare with the 101E ...
thanks |
Comparing M6 with X2.2 is more appropriate imo. |
true....most ppl in our city compare with other gigantic speakers, like Wilson Maxx and MBL 101 and Kharma.
Noticeably, I have tried my setup with Boulders with Maxx and MBL 101, since these 3 brands Boulder, Wilson and MBL are agented by the same local dealer.
I finally choose Boulder + Magico 6, Maxx is good but not to the league of Magico 6 in terms of dynamic and speed and response.
jsut my two cents. |
Lets here from more REAL MAGICO OWNERS WITH REAL INPUT. THANKS!! |
Great speakers but OVERPRICED!! |
My impressions of Magico minis when I have heard them were similar to Kirbyfels. The silkiness in the highs lent themselves uniquely well to massed violins and such in good orchestral recordings |
HI guys
It is really interesting to follow this thread about Magico new Q5 and others like, V3 or Mini 2. I am a Magico fan from Hong Kong, Asia
Personally, I have owned 2 pairs of Mini before I go the ladder up, to now I own M6. M6 is REALLY stunning, comparing with all speakers I have ever heard, nowhere closer or nearer to Magico.
In terms of transparency in high range, you will not realise where the music comes from, it is really airy and silky. It goes without saying about the bass range, slamming all the way extant 30 feet x 15 feet hall. the mid range is airy and smooth and does not however have grain or sands. Its speed is not a compromise at all.
Hey guys, Do not trust my words and go for an audition, you will know Woolf;s philosophy in delivery into music not just sound.
the local dealer in Hong Kong has been using different amplifiers to serve M6, such as, Spectral solid state and LAMM valve amp. Both are up and beyond standard.
I have also used valve, 20W output, really stunning. |
"it's best to put on a record or CD to make your case"
So true.
Wouldn't it be nice if we could hear what we talk about here on Agon in real world fidelity over the internet?
Ironic that with a web site we can only talk about this stuff and never actually hear a darn thing meaningful to back up what we say! |
It's interesting reading about a speaker that, as of yet, has been sampled only by the company's principals and (maybe) several outside listeners whose opinion they care about.
Magico has big cojones coming out with this model just one year after their M5. If you compare the two, the Q5 involves replacing one of the two 6" drivers with a new 9" midbass unit, and upgrading the tweeter, along with their stated refinement (it is not clear whether they are referring to acoustic or crossover) of the two 9" woofers. And a new braced aluminum frame that overall is more dense than the M5, built on their own CNC machines. Technogeeks will gladly replace Miss July's poster for the new Q5 pictures (I already have).
But how will it sound?
As a disclosure, I bought the V2 several months ago after deciding for myself that overall they were the best speaker for me and my family under $20K. We are very happy with the choice, and I must admit that having a very good dealer who is a true gentleman paved the way for my purchase. For me, the hype concerning Magico caused me to be more cautious and deliberate in my decision, to ensure that I was making a good one.
It's fascinating watching everyone (including myself) trying to attach objective means of measurement (value, construction techniques, raw material cost, how "true" the intent of the designer is, how "honest" is their ad campaign, etc.) to what in the end is a very subjective and personal choice, regarding not only the speaker's performance but also the outlook toward audio itself. I sometimes try to talk to my non-audiophile wife in these terms, but like the saying "a picture is worth a thousand words," it's best to put on a record or CD to make your case.
Perhaps some people might be swayed by arguments pro or con, but in the end, if enough people are convinced to part with their $$$ for this or any other product, the company will succeed and make a profit.
In the end, the market decides. It will not matter whether or not it is a mediocre or great product, or if it "worthy" or "unworthy" of the success or failure it attains. And the market's choice may or may not make us happy. For some, there is no need to justify their choices; for others, a complete and thorough accounting is necessary for them to be true to themselves.
I for one would like "good" companies lead by admirable staff that make genuinely decent products to succeed. But there I go again with all the subjective verbiage.
Suppose the principal of a company is a real a**hole, but they make a great and reliable product - would you buy it? How about if he/she is just a great human being, but their product sucks - how about then? Suppose you lust after the Aston Martin Rapide, but they reject your argument that it really shouldn't be that more expensive than an equally-equipped Jaguar - does that make them a baaaaad company? Everyone has heard the story of someone who thinks that Bang and Olufsen is the pinnacle of High-End (I thought so in 1982 ... for shame), and that buying anything more expensive should have their head examined. And so on...
You like it, you might buy it. You don't like it, you most likely will not buy it.
The bottom line is that the Q5 is $54K. It is that price whether or not the M5 exists. It likely cost less than $54K to build. There was some design work necessary, which took some time, and which is worth some money as well. There is no monopoly on the ability to design, prototype, craft, or sell speakers of similar construction, so anyone has the ability to compete for sales in this arena.
We vote with our wallets and purses, pure and simple. I could have made this argument with one word - Walmart.
|
Mariv26,
Piega Masterone, reminding me to Infinity Epsilon & Sigma
http://www.piega.ch/en/produkte/masterone.htm
and
Piega CLX 120
http://www.piega.ch/en/produkte/cl-serie.htm
are considered by german High End magazine STEREO belonging to the best of the best.
I have never heard them, that's why I am asking here...
it's most probably better quality than a Chevy ;-) |
Lapierre,
You go through a pretty good explanation why a proper Aluminum (
better elements of stiffness, mass, and
dampness ..) box is superior to an MDF, and then come up with a wrong conclusion
? Assuming all thing equal, Aluminum is It is not different , it is better. It has nothing to do with which tone you prefer. It is about who has less tone to begin with.
Clavil,
Just the fact that a Chevy body is made out of the same steel as a BMW, does not make it equal in overall quality. |
In the end, I'm pretty darn sure Magicos, Avalons, Tidals, Wilsons, etc. could be well-tuned into a listening environment and enjoyed.
Would we still be listening to the equipment ?
Would the performance sound close enough to give more than a vague illusion of the real thing ?
Would we come away impressed without fatigue ?
These are the questions I've been asking myself over the years of listening experience.
I guess it would be boring as hell if everyone here had the same
set-up, even if the sound was stellar ?
Happy Holidays ! |
somebody knows the top end of Piega loudspeakers?
all aluminium build? |
"What is the sonic advantage of using aluminum for the box?"
Mapman to answer your question...and I'm in agreement with you on the
Avalons and other speakers.
Cabinet panel resonances are a significant cause of sound coloration, if using
aluminum enclosure there is better elements of stiffness, mass, and
dampness compared to MDF enclosures with heavy bracing and the special
resin dampening glues. Accordingly, this allows the drivers to operate with
clarity and dynamics. Yeah but what does that mean when I'm listening to my
main man Steve Jordan playing his custom maple snare drum. Magico does
not use MDF, the V3 and mini II enclosures are one-inch layers of extremely
stiff, laminated, 17-ply Baltic birch plywood.
I do like the approach for enclosure system design but can you tell the sonic
difference when AB. Which is Aluminum and which is MDF? I think it is more
about the unique tone.
Metal snares and wood snares have two totally different resonance I don't
think one is better...it just depends on the style of the recording and type of
music that fits. |
Rtn1
Now we are getting somewhere. Reading your reply, I can't help buy noticing a deep personal resentment to "Mr. Wolf" AKA Magico. I assume you do not know him personally, so I wonder, what has he done to upset you so deeply? Perhaps pointing out to "real" issues loudspeaker, like the one you own, may have? Some that will question your judgment? You obviously did not like that. So what are the chances you would like a product he makes? Does sound has anything to do with it? I doubt it.
" let us not talk about big egos and thin skins".
Did you read your post before you posted it? If it is not about egos, what is it about?
BTW, you may want to read again, some of the material you are referring to. If you still do not understand the difference between a musical instrument enclosures and a loudspeaker one. |
What is the sonic advantage of using aluminum for the box?
Doesn't using metal of any kind rather than wood have an effect on the resulting sound? I would think it would impart a unique tone. Not necessarily better, but unique, which is not a bad thing. At these price points, you want a speaker to distinguish itself clearly from the competition.
When I heard Magicos, the upper midrange and top end is what I remember as having a distinct good sound. Just not sure if it was better, but definitely unique.
Avalons have a unique sound too when I heard them.
So do mbls.
It makes sense to me that speakers in this price range will seek to distinguish themselves sonically from teh pack somehow. That usually means no one will be everyones cup of tea. What's wrong with that? As long as people like them and have the $$$s to buy them, they will do fine I suppose.
I will not lose much sleep about not being able to afford any of them (at least until my kids are out of college perhaps) in any case.
|
"Please define "real" and "value." Do you refer to intrinsic, inherent or instrumental value? Do you refer to social reality or to some objective reality as Searle distinguishes?"
This is pretty deep, but do we really need Searle to have a discussion about whether the speakers are good value relative to plausible competitors? John |
If anyone has specific information about production costs and margins, I would appreciate being educated. For example, the Isis uses tweeters that retail for $9000. The mid-range retails for $1100 and the woofers are over $2000 before any modifications. Avalon may not pay quite that much, but that provides a ballpark for just a few material costs. How much is it for aluminum and cones made out of the same material as helicopter blades?
Of course, cost is different from value. Does it make sense to use diamonds in a speaker? What is the price:performance? I feel they are sublime; other would also be correct to regard them as silly. High cost material should be used as a means to an end, not as a means in and of itself. You could build a speaker out of gold and carved ivory, but why?
Magico is definitely a polarizing brand, as this and other threads clearly demonstrate. There are other polarizing companies in audio. My opinion is that the etiology of the strong feeling is partly based upon cost. I feel that Magico is over-priced by about 1/3. I heard the V3, and it did not make a sound commensurate with the price. That statement is subjective. Couple that to the marketing of extreme-fi speakers. Alon Wolf proclaims himself a musical genius, and he not only went into speaker design because a passion, but because the audio industry needed him. His interviwes spew of self-promotional and condescending non-sense. Excuse me while I tighten the loose screws on my wooden speakers... I am sure that aluminum speakers will become the norm in 10 years because 'MDF is the worst possible material for use in a speaker'. Perhaps the violin should also be made of aluminum, so we can really hear the energy from those strings? Finally, all the proclamations of 'the best', even though we all know there is no such thing. Mr. Wolf speaks with vanity, disrespect, and lacks humility. After all, he designs speakers 20 hours a day because he cannot live with anyone else's speaker.
All audio companies seek positive press, good interviews, and hyped-up websites/brochures. There are many examples, and Magico is far from unique. It really does not bother me, since we have free will to tune-in to that which we choose. If Magico is successful in selling speakers, then more power to them. After all, we vote with our pocket books. A company is free to price a product at the margin they desire, and there are plenty of choices in this competitive market. Well-informed and passionate audiophiles may find the sound they desire, and feel the value is there. I totally respect their reasoning. My past threads have even suggested that people looking for a quality speaker should have a listen. If it were not for the Isis, the M5 would be on my short-list to consider. However, I will admit the $90k price is extremely difficult with life's other priorities.
Why does Roypan have an intense desire for everyone to regard his speakers as the best? I personally do not care whether others like my speaker. A speaker is a personal thing, and a designer deals with a set of trade-offs, limitations, and realities. I looked carefully for criticisms before purchasing, and respect well-informed opinions. At these prices, you have to be critical. Many have commented on their distaste of the Avalon sound, and that is perfectly legitimate. I have never told anyone that my speaker is the best, that they should buy the same speaker as I, or put them down for not having the same opinion. There are many Magico owners who are reading this thread, laugh, think "who cares", and go enjoy their music. Please let us not talk about big egos and thin skins here, as that is just nonsense.
Although I chose not to purchase Magico, I appreciate a speaker which takes a new approach and has a definite philosophy. I am always open to hearing new things, and purchase speakers not based upon the strong personality of a designer, but based upon the sound. In the end, we all work hard for our money, appreciate good things, and buy items that bring enjoyment. As an audiophile, I would love the opportunity to listen to a well set-up M5 or Q5. If the Q5 is a true full-range speaker, which can convey the sense of scale and proportion of orchestral music, then I may even be interested. In that regard, I honestly hope that the Q5 is a breakthough speaker, and if so, wish it all the luck. |
Roypan,
You say this thread was about the was about the new Q5 and its "real" value proposition. When I look at the OP it mentions nothing about "real value"
Audiogon is ALL about personal opinions - we all have them and clearly yours and mine differs and I agree let's not continue the argument about my views.
I will finish with the comment that you cannot ascribe "real value" in the case of speakers without considering the end user and their listening impressions. You appear to equate real-world value only to build cost and R&D and the such like. If they cost 40k to build and I think they sound ordinary (an example, as I haven't heard the Q5), then to me, they are of little value. I'm quite certain that you also wouldn't purchase a pair of speakers based on their science, materials and cost to build if you didn't like the sound! The "real value" of speakers is different for every listener out there. |
Hi Roypan,
To what extent have I disparaged your ownership of the Magico or any other product? My primary point is that we should limit our conclusions to those we derive from sound premises using consistent logic.
There are many things we may assume but not test: the fierceness of competition in the marketplace for highend audio speakers; the sociology of knowledge and information dissemination in discursive networks etc.
As for wasteful, you infer that I imply that Magico are wasteful. I did not make that claim. I merely provide an optic by which we might examine our frameworks of reasoning.
And even if Magico were inefficient, which is not the same as wasteful (one imagines a semantic difference in intent), at the price they sell for, if I like them, I would buy them, as I did the V3.
Indeed, many of the factors you allude to in the design and construction of Magico are appealing to me as a layperson who does not purport to know how they work together. However for aesthetic and intuited reasons, the use of materials like aluminum or void-free Baltic Birch is something I can grasp. Indeed, knowledge of similar design and construction components in my Boulder, MBL and Goldmund gear returns the same satisfaction.
On the other hand, although I might have been unfair to single your post out, in truth, as you mention, there are many posts here and in all the Magico and Wilson Audio threads that suffer worse cases of opinion masquerading as fact.
To this extent, I would proffer that an argument can be made for Magico quite well using precisely the aspects of manufacture you refer to without resorting to ad hominem attacks. In fact, I know that you have done exactly this in many other threads across this vapid cyberspace. So ironically, I am with you.
Soldier on. |
Classicjazz,
You can rock the boat anyway you like, and use the words inefficiencies as many time as possible in one sentence but I wish you would give those of us who did buy the product some credit. Obviously, the competition to Magico products is quite fierce. I am sure, they would have fail miserably if it was built in such a wasteful way your post is implying, or sound as bad as other here are suggesting. And, yes, apparently there is a hierarchy of loudspeakers that towers above us into the sky, you obviously would not be commenting on the Magicos, if that was not the case. |
a new thread about new speaker Avalon Time also quite expensive ... a couple of months later 6 responses
a new thread about Magico Q 5 ... immediate and many reactions
is Magico better than Avalon ?
I know quite well the Indra, the Sentinell, the V3 and the minis 2 , I think no one from these 2 companies make compromises about quality ... then it's a question of taste. Avalon properly set up works beautifully for classical music. The Sentinel is just marvelous. I was impressed by the minis 2 but have never heard until now a good set up of the V3 (with all top of Krell & MIT a claustrophobic disaster in my point of view, dry...) I wish I could compare the Sentinel with the M5 or Q5
so why is this hapening? all merit of Jonhatan Valin from TAS or ???
PS by the way the swiss company Piega is building since years all aluminium loudspeakers |
Roypan,
Please define "real" and "value." Do you refer to intrinsic, inherent or instrumental value? Do you refer to social reality or to some objective reality as Searle distinguishes? Is raw material cost the defining characteristic of any product? What about design costs? What about R&D? What about inefficient R&D and production costs? What about lack of statistical quality control that leads to manufacturing inefficiencies and waste that lead to higher prices for the end user? Input side is a part but intermediary steps very much affect outcomes as does the cost of living and working in the San Francisco Bay Area.
I do believe you tread into philosophical depths beyond your erudition when you castigate others who confound valuation with preference. Perhaps some time understanding the philosophical foundations of perception or the vast and growing neuroscientific research into consciousness, emotion, cognition and valuation/valencing will enable you realize that value and the stuff between ones ears are quite intertwined.
In what way has Magico risen to the top? Of what? Is there a hierarchy of loudspeakers that towers above us into the sky, that is there for anyone in the world to apprehend? |
Just for fun I recommend reading Romy the Cats site and his views on the Magico mini, the Model 6 and the Magico "press" in general. It's hilarious. Start under general audio. |
I for one would like to hear the sonic difference of aluminum enclosure compared to horizontal and vertical layers of extremely stiff, laminated, Baltic birch plywood.
|
Sure, and Area 51 is landing aliens daily. When you say they who are you referring to? A guy in his garage building speakers? Hundreds if not thousands have done the same. So just because "they" said their monitor is the most expansive one they have risen to the top? BTW, It is complete BS since I have never heard "them" saying that, not to mention, that it is not true. |
No marketing hype ... yeah, riiiight.
Minis were marketed from the start as the most expensive two-way in the world. That was their way of getting attention. Sure, they used some high quality parts (x-over), birch ply, Scan-Speak ring radiator tweeter, ATD midwoofer etc, but nothing out of ordinary, that haven't been used before. And for what they were, they were grossly overpriced.
I still remember the stories they told about supposedly 'their' midwoofer design ('the only one in the world to combine Titanium skins with a bonded foam layer for self-damping. There's only one man on the planet willing and capable of making it' blah, blah, blah) that made laugh anyone who knows anything about drive units and the italian company ATD that used to manufacture those.
And no not even get me started about those monster 'reference' horns ...
To my ears, Magicos are one of the most overhyped products on the market right now. Time will tell how long they will be able to sustain interest in their products. |
I do have to say, the Q5 does looks great. Very curious to listen to them when I have the opportunity.
Why do all those nice new speakers get introduced all the time. This way I can never settle and listen without have the "audio virus" make me search for something else :) :) |
Hens,
I was under the impression that you are talking about real "value". Not the one between your ears. You can like whatever you wish. I would not waste my/your time debating your preferences. This thread, was about the new Q5 and its "real" value proposition. |
Hens, very well spoken!!
I too sometimes feel some people feel almost offended if for instance the speaker they own isn't to the taste of someone else. I've seen Roypan uses/used the V3 and is a very happy and proud Magico owner, but in my opinion sometimes give me the impression to be insulted if something is said about Magico which he doesn't like.
Luckily everyone has there own taste. Otherwise everyone would have the same speaker, same car, house etc.
I like the looks of Magico a lot, but have my own opinion about the sound. Nevertheless I am open to opinions from others and not stating "this is good, this is bad". I'm just giving my own personal view.
If someone has a system with Magico speakers and loves the sound, well great, I'm happy for him.
I've recently heard the Magico M5 and have to say it wasn't as good as I hoped for. The sound was ok, but I would never pay that amount of money for them. Was it the room, the electronics????? Maybe, maybe even a combination of all but it could also be that the sound just isn't my thing. Probably need to listen to them again as first impression might be wrong, but from the limited experience I've had with the Magico M5 so far, they wouldn't be on my wish list.
Just my opinion. |
I like MAgico minis but I also like PSB, OHM, Dynaudio, Triangle and others that cost much less. I know I could live with these others, not sure about Magico, I would have to listen some more.
After all, overbuilding is fine but there is only so much more new teechnology can squeeze out of box X, drivers and crossover no matter how well built. MAgico isn't the only one and they are not for everyone either despite the cost.
To me at least mbl is takes a radical and unique direction that helps differentiate their gear from the pack for better or for worse.
But yes, there is a place for Magico and I give them credit for apparently being as successful as they are. CIty dwellers in tight quarters with money to spend will find them attractive. |
Roypan, you are correct - I do completely miss the value proposition of the Magico. I listened, I didn't like. End of story for me. If that's how 300lbs+ of machined aluminium sounds, then I'm happy to miss the value proposition. And I think you are underestimating Magico in terms of their market strategy and their business savvy. Like their speakers or not, one cannot argue that Magico have made some very smart business decisions in terms of where they want their products to be positioned.
The only fact that matters to me is that I didn't like the sound of the V3's or the Minis. I hope that this fact doesn't confuse you or anyone else that might happen accross this thread!
I wanted only to express my subjective opinion in terms of these speakers. I hadn't realised such offence would be taken, so apologies for that. I hope you continue to enjoy them. |
Hens,
I think that you are giving Wolf and company to much "marketing" clout. Magico is/was a boot strapping company. Do you really think that Wolf was sitting in his shop thinking it will be a good idea to charge $30K for two way? The products Wolf built was sought-after, not the other way around. You completely miss the value proposition of a Magico speakers. I have tried , in many prior posts, to point out that a 300LBS + machined aluminum plates, do cost more than 1000LBS of MDF (Or Material X or M or whatever). Same for the woofers XO parts and even stacks birch ply. But why confuse people with facts? |
I listened to V3 and M5's speakers and the sound was like I was listening to music through speakers. I was very disappointed based on all the reviews and hoopla on boards such as this. |
Roypan, you misunderstand me, I think. I'm not talking 'marketing' in the traditional sense of media advertising. I don't know anyone that buys hi-fi based on glossy advertisements. I'm actually talking about the Company's marketing strategy - how they position products in the market and how to use their brand reputation established through the audio reviewing community.
The bottom line is that this audio reviewing community pretty well determines for the industry what is a fair price for a product. A pair of speakers lists at 100k, the magazines and on-line audio reviewers rave about it and declare it worth every cent, and the market credibility of the speakers at 100k is established. Companies then need to use the reputation thus established, to generate their profit. I think Magico have an ideal strategy in this regard.
I'm not criticising Magico for their marketing strategy in releasing a speaker 30k below their top model, and then being able to 'market' them as superb value with the claim that 'trickle-down' technology delivers 95% of the sound of the M5. (This is purely an example, by the way - I don't know how Magico are positioning the Q5 in the market.)
I have clearly offended you and I therefore assume you are a Magico owner. As I said, my opinions regarding the sound of two modeels of the Magico are purely subjective. I'm not commenting in any way way about "the majority of audiophiles community, all over the world" as you ask. I can only be sure of my own impressions based on my listening compared to some other similarly priced speakers. They didn't do it for me regardless of the fact that "the majority of audiophiles community all over the world" suggest they should have. My loss? ....Perhaps... |
I've heard the Magico V2 and Mini II. I was not impressed by the Mini, but maybe the rest of the system was not well matched. At the same dealership in a different room and with completely different equipment, the V2 was simply stunning. I think $18K is a lot for a pair of speakers, but relative to a good analog front end plus phono stage, $18K seems reasonable for that level of quality. My point is that value is relative and enjoyment is subjective. And Magico has arrived in the marketplace with a bang. They are certainly doing something right. |
