True. True. 150s are priced to the current market, and my hoping they'd be cheaper eventually is simply wishful thinking...today if needed I'd just get another set of matched 120s as they seem to be a relative bargain and sound great. |
what gives you the idea the 150's will be cheaper in a few years?? the 120's haven't really gone down that much since they came out a few years ago. wolf, i have two 502's running in mono {yes, they have a lot more headroom now driving my 1b mid/tweet panels} that would be $750 to buy 150's ( 8 of them) instead of about $300 for 120's. big difference here. is the 150's adding another 10 watts to the amp going to really make a difference for the cost. at $60 a tube i would jump right on them,not at $90. mike at jolida (i spoke to him about this already--the 150's) says they will work with the 502 amp but would hold off getting them right now because they are testing them now to see what the best bias would be to run them at. my mono 502's now with the 120's in are pushing 140 watts at 550 v's. mike said the 120's could be run at 600 with no problem |
what gives you the idea the 150's will be cheaper in a few years?? the 120's haven't really gone down that much since they came out a few years ago. wolf, i have two 502's running in mono {yes, they have a lot more headroom now driving my 1b mid/tweet panels} that would be $750 to buy 150's ( 8 of them) instead of about $300 for 120's. big difference here. is the 150's adding another 10 watts to the amp going to really make a difference for the cost. at $60 a tube i would jump right on them,not at $90. mike at jolida (i spoke to him about this already--the 150's) says they will work with the 502 amp but would hold off getting them right now because they are testing them now to see what the best bias would be to run them at. my mono 502's now with the 120's in are pushing 140 watts at 550 v's. mike said the 120's could be run at 600 with no problem |
If the 120s or any tube for that matter start to SOUND bad, become hard to keep biased, or explode and destroy your hamster sleeping in his ball next to the hifi (this is sad as you should never leave the hamster in the ball)...then certainly they should be replaced. |
Wolf ... point taken. All I can say is that ARC and Gary (Hifegeek1) are touting the company line here. I contacted Kal at ARC by e-mail. He continues to hold that 2000 hours is when both the KT-120s and the 6550 WE regulator tubes should be replaced. |
It seems ridiculous that somebody would claim 1900 hours is "near the end of their useful life" for KT120s unless that person was trying to sell you something...that would make perfect sense. I'm shooting for 5000 hours or more for my 120s, which should bring me to the point where 150s are much less expensive than during the current feeding frenzy. |
11-13-13: Wolf_garcia
Unfortunately, due to the shape of the KT150 I can only assume that emergency rooms will eventually be dealing with those who've decided to cram them up their...uh...nevermind...innapropriate...sorry...
Wolf_garcia (Threads | Answers | This Thread) Fortunately not something you have to worry about ... well broken in with plenty of room. I bet break-in was shorter than your KT120s? |
Joe ... that's an interesting bit of data. I understand that ARC is looking at the KT-150 now.
Here's my little dilemma. My KT-120s have about 1900 hours on them. According to Gary (Hifigeek1) and ARC, I'm just about at the end of their useful life and should get ready to replace them. I wonder how much longer it will be before ARC announces yeah or nay?? |
Unfortunately, due to the shape of the KT150 I can only assume that emergency rooms will eventually be dealing with those who've decided to cram them up their...uh...nevermind...innapropriate...sorry... |
According to the New Sensor data sheet on the KT150, the heater current is not less than 1.75A and not more than 2.0A and for the KT 120 it's not less than 1.7A and not more than 1.95A. So, they're pretty close in that regard.
There may be other characteristics, physical, mechanical or electrical that may preclude using the KT150 in applications that are designed for the KT120. Physical size is an obvious one. |
Regarding the KT-150. It is not known yet if this tube is a drop in replacement for the KT-120. I'm awaiting info from the ARC engineering dept. on this issue. The KT-150 puts out more power than the KT-120 which could mean it draws more heater current than the KT-120 does. When I get more info on this, I will share it here. Until that time, I would be very careful using this tube. |
Yeah...after 3000 plus hours I think these are starting to break in...by next June they should be gettin' real good. |
My KT120s must have more than 3000 hours on them by now, and no signs of drifting bias or sonic issues yet...they still sound strong. |
10-28-13: Booboobaer
Actually Xtil6 I have about 200 hours and they are still opening up.I have been told by Paul Weitzel that I should give them at least 500 hours to start seing what they can do. This is not unreasonable since I saw the same results with the KT 120. 1/4 of expected life just for break-in? OK, got a 10000 shares long market order on TS. LOL! |
As far as I know the KT-120 tube as well as the 6550we have a useful life of 2000 hrs. |
I second that thought. If they are checking tube life, that may take some time I suppose |
Good morning Hifigeek1 .
Thank you for the qualification and for the most current situation report we have had to date.
I am certain many ARC owners will be eagerly awaiting your future posts in this regard . |
Gary (Hifigeek) -- does ARC still hold that the KT-120s have a 2000 useful life. I thought I read a 2012 review of the Ref 150 that quoted an ARC rep as saying the KT-120 tube life was considerably longer. In the same view, is the 6550 WE tube life also 2000 hours. I have 6550 WE tubes in my ARC front end gear. |
ARC is in the process of testing this tube. They are in the process of life testing the tube as well as sonic evaluations. They have not come to any decisions as of today. When I hear something more I will post it to this thread.. |
Thank you for your input Hifigeek1 .
May I inquire whether you have in fact spoken with , or had direct and very recent contact with ARC R&D on this matter ?
I ask as your comment ~
" nor have they sonically tested or life tested it as far as I know"
would tend to contradict what scant information we have at this time some of which purports to be from ARC themselves !
|
ARC are currently not using this tube nor have they sonically tested or life tested it as far as I know. They continue to use the KT-120 for those amps designed to use it. |
Hopefully we may hear some definitive direction from ARC in the not toooooooooo distant future as to which models , if any , may be certified to utilize the KT150 . |
It may prove to be the case that the Mains / KT ratio of the Ref 75 might receive sanction , however we may speculate that the Ref 150's 8 x KT / Mains ratio may prove too near the Red Line without major surgery , if at all.
However it would seem prudent to await the 'The Word' from ARC central on this matter regardless of model , especially for units still under warranty . |
Bifwynne If you or anyone else could report back with a definitive answer from ARC, that would be great. To just remind you, the UK importer said the Ref 75 should be OK, not the 150 and above, but I would rather hear what the company has to say. |
I will. I have a lot going on in my system. Fairly new amps, new Dueland caps, different DAC, DC filter. It never stops! |
To ARC tube amp owners, this is Kalvin Dahl's response:
"Until engineering tests the KT150s I would not use them in the Ref 150."
I think it's a fair inference that Kal's advice covers all ARC tube amps.
Patience, patience. |
the KT150 tubes had rediculous bloom in mid and bass. But given time that all goes away. Funny that would be how I would explain the first 25 hrs with the KT120's. Kind of reminds me of the original Tung Sol 6550 solid black plates with deeper lows. Although the mids of the TS 6550 bp has mids that rival the EL34 sound which I thought was close to the KT120's when new. Booboobaer - Please post back when they are fully broken in. |
David12, the KT150 tubes had rediculous bloom in mid and bass. But given time that all goes away. |
Actually Xtil6 I have about 200 hours and they are still opening up.I have been told by Paul Weitzel that I should give them at least 500 hours to start seing what they can do. This is not unreasonable since I saw the same results with the KT 120. |
Btselect - My V110 came with a Sovtek 12ax7lps and the drivers are current production Tung Sol. I don't care fgor either of those tubes. Like I said before I did like the KT120's for the first 25 hrs. If you like bandwidth check out the Gec CV6091/A2900 (12at7's). |
KT 150s are likely to never appear in a guitar amp, unless somebody thinks they need a very clean unusually high powered guitar amp, which most guitar players don't. I don't think anybody makes a KT120 powered guitar amp, although a tube bass amp might be a good idea for those.
I found that the new-ish version Psvane 12AX7-T II is a great match with 120s...in my Jolida 502 anyway. |
I had a word with the UK importer at a small show over the weekend. He has tried the 150's in his amp and was'nt impressed. Good for a guitar amp, was his response, too rich, too much midrange bloom.
He said the 150's would be ok in the Ref 75, which I have. He thought the Ref 150 would'nt be ok. There would'nt be a high enough plate voltage to drive more tubes than the 4 in the ref 75. Just what he said, I have'nt heard the KT150's myself. I too would welcome feedback from ARC, I could'nt find an E-mail address to contact them, on the website. |
Booboobaer - How many hrs are you talking about? I found with the KT120's they took at least 200 hrs to settle down. |
Xti16
The tubes were right out of the box, it could be the input tubes you were using may not be a good match for the KT-120. I just heard the V110 today with the KT-150 tube, again the results were spectacular. We used the Gold Lion 12AT-7, but preferred the Gold Lion 12AU-7 with the Gold Lion 12AX-7. I never cared for the Tele or Mullards or any of the NOS tubes in the Octave components, I prefer the wider bandwidth of the current Gold Lions.
Btselect |
I have the new GT200 Monos by TRL and have put the KT150 in place of the KT120 tubes. They blow them away. Being that the tubes have such large plates it takes a lot of hours to get them to open up. They are becoming the best tubes I have ever heard. The GT200 monos take complete advantage of the tubes. With the large power supplies and massive caps the tubes really shine. I had a few friends over and the two women actually cried on a piece I played for them. One comment that they made was " I want to stand up and applause". One mistake that some people make is they don't give them time to break in and they don't bias them high enough in order to run a signal through fully.Human voices are a dead give away. Give them time |
Thanks Knghifi, Paul's work is truly SOTA it just takes a lot of time to build them one at a time and there's no substitute for that...
As for ARC products I'm hearing such great things about the Ref 75 and I'm sure we would all like to know about the 150's in there too. Keep us updated...my guess/hope is that they will work??? and we all will be in for an even further treat. Good luck |
If ARC starts using them in their Ref series amps i would likely want to have a listen to a REF75 with those inside before making a decision on a REF150 with KT120's.
I would like to replace my aging Classic 120's although they were upgraded by GNSC in 2005. I am using 8 SED 6550C in each of them and they still sound fabulous. Just looking at getting something else in the ARC line with close to same power output but with fewer tubes.
Let us know what Kal says. |
Btselect - Forgot to ask. When you compared the KT150's were they fully broken in? I ask because when my KT120's were new I really liked them. After 100 hrs I had to take them out. Too forward and a bit grainy. I loaned them to a friend who said he loved them. He put about 150 hrs on them when I got them back. I tried them again although better (very linear) I also replaced my driver tubes (Telefunken 12at7's) with some warm sounding Mullards which helped even more but still not as good as EiKT90's. |
Just sent off another e mail to Kal at ARC about the KT-150. I'll post his response when he comes back to me. |
Lissnr, Congrats on a terrific system and I would love to hear it. It's unfortunate not enough audiophiles get to experience Paul's creations. |
Btselect - Thanks for the info. I just wrote to Mick at Dynaudio to ask Andreas if the KT150's will be OK in the V110. Mick's response is Andreas is currently working with them in the V110. Makes me want to try them for sure. |
Hi Knghifi, A friend of mine had a new pair of GT 200's recently built for him by Paul so I fortunately arranged for him to sell me his "old pair". I had him ship them directly to Paul where he pretty much gutted anything not worth saving and replaced 'lots of stuff' including all new transformers as well as new Duelund cast caps. I also had him send the faceplates back to the anodizer where we had them done to match the one on my Dude pre-amp(Gun-metal gray). They are simply the most musical amps I have ever heard and when combined with the Dude (also Duelund cast equipped) and my Lampizator Big 6... it's truly sublime. Yes, I feel Paul's equipment really does compete across the board with almost anything out there?!? Thanks for your interest and kind words. |
Lissnr, what TRL tube amp do you have? Paul makes excellent stuff that are competitive with anything on the market. |
Is the KT-150 similar to the KT-120 in that it is not a direct replacement for a KT-88? |
for $7oo they better sound good!!!!!!! |
Yes, The KT 150's have arrived and they are spectacular. I am originally an EL-34 guy who was addicted to the midrange but also played with SED winged C 6550's for their better extension and somewhat more openness, speed and clarity across the board. I've also run EH KT-88's, so this is the extent of the brand and models my Cary Sa 280 V12R's and my CJ Premier 12's were fed. I have used both amps individually and both amps together bi-amping my Apogee Duetta Sigs (Rebuilt by True Sound Works). A lot of fun. I used an active dedicated electronic crossover in the final combination before I switched out both amps but at the time it was CJ's handling the woofers and the Cary handling the mid/tweeter...Punch/dynamics, extension, serious imaging and space and glorious vocals.
Fast forward to my new TRL mono blocs and the arrival of the KT 120's. Very punchy, good extension, nice air and a mid that wasn't quite the same as an EL-34 but surprisingly on the warm-er side of things....I had heard it would have the extension of a high powered KT-88 along with mids approaching a 34...Overall it wasn't too far off but I felt the mids were perhaps just a little too "warm and fuzzy" for my application... You had to really be discerning because the overall sound of the tube was very nice, but for my system it came pretty close but didn't quite replace the 34/6550 combo I had hoped.
Don't get me wrong...I was pretty much "Done" as far as tubes...they were reliable, seemingly robust, and did a very satisfying job, albeit with the described points...
When someone first mentioned KT 150's my first instinct was to say 'Why do we need that??" Will it be an improvement? Really? And is there really a market for even more power? (the 120's were "plenty" although the expression about having more power is usually nice...).
Fast forward again and I managed to get myself 2 matched quads of brand new 150's (My amp manufacturer (TRL) not only said my amps could handle them but actually encouraged me to try them as he was having great results and really liked the tube). So I replaced the 120's with the 150's and was very pleasantly surprised by how much more they added to the mix...Essentially all the benefits of the 120's plus a midrange that rivals my beloved EL-34's AND gets me the top to bottom extension of an 88 or the 120's in spades. Even more dynamic than you thought you'd ever want, as I said: "great mids"...and sweet highs [though I haven't completely explored to full top and bottom yet as my amps had been recently rebuilt and are still breaking in]. Very very promising though..I think they're a real winner.
Try them. |
Xri16 just heard the KT-150 the other day on a Octave RE-290, compared to the KT-120 is like comparing a Rolls Royce to a Toyota. Surpasses the KT-120 in every way. A more extended bandwidth with a blacker background, bigger and deeper soundstage, a much fuller sound with a lot less grain. Once you hear this tube, all the other tubes just simply became obsolete, a perfect match with the current Genelex Gold Lion input tubes, in this case the 12AU-7's. Can't wait for them to issue a Gold Lion version of this tube. |
Has anyone contacted ARC about using KT150s in their amps?
Also, Naggots, which manufacturer suggests 7000 hours for the KT120? |
I do have one dissimilar 120, and since it works fine I ignore that although it did bug me...but I get it. I suppose the good news is the fact that anybody makes tubes at all since it really seems to be a fiddly hands on thing. I watched an entire old film about the Blackburn Mullard factory (somebody here posted the link)...amazing. |
The KT-120s sound fine but the internals of 1 were clearly not given a good visual QC... the posts (anode?) for the vertical glowing conductors are shorter above the top mica plate than the other 3 and guaranteed that when circuit protection cuts in, that's the culprit tube. |
