Anyone have a chance to hear the new Bel Canto amplification at RMAF? I understand they have a Mk II version of the Ref 1000's and some new mono amps. I'd be interested in hearing impressions.
I prefer the Furutech Evo IIs to PCs and speaker wires to the Cardas Golden Ref wires that I had in the system, both with JRDG 312 and Bel cantos, prior to starting to write the review. As the effect of the wiring swap was common to both JRDG 312 and Bel canto, I removed the issue from the review equation. I may discuss it in a future article on the Furutech wires.
As I assert in so many words in the conclusion, the R1K Mk.2s are remarkable and engaging devices. Perhaps I should have also mentioned that there were one of a relatively small number of amplifier that I enjoyed at RMAF in 2008. Their impressive ability to expose harmonic complexity is discussed both in the sections on the Poroscina performance and the quasi Tuvan throat song of the bariton in Regnantem Sempiterna.
Illustration of the amps' excellent staging and imaging is found in the Krall and in the Yo Yo Ma paragraphs, although I am not sure what a stage a mile deep would sound like, regardless of reproduced music or standard live venues.
The authority and transient ability of the amps is also excellent, as I discuss in the cello work, in the conclusion, and I believe also in the section on Krall, in spite of some minor quibbles.
The Bel Cantos break in relatively quickly for ICEpower amps. They stabilized after approximately 500 hours, which is when any residual leanness was removed, and they reached maximum top to bottom frequency extension and harmonic congruence. While some leanness and foreshortened treble was in evidence prior to them settling down completely, by the time I wrote the review I found them to be very well balanced across the spectrum, except for some minor and only occasional exhuberant flares in the mid bass region. However, as you point out correctly, I do admittedly belong to the school of moderate musical neutrality, and I do not typically enjoy more than the gentlest trace of 'warmth' in a device. G.
A well researched and written review on the Bel Canto Ref 1000 MKII - thanks!
A couple of questions if i may?
1. In my audition of the Ref 1000's earlier this year one of the most impressive aspects of the amplifier was its speed or transient response which was particularly appreciated in large scale orchestral music but benefited all music in general. What was particularly impressive about the amp was its awesome control over the harmonic tail. Your review only skirts the speed determinant. I wondered whether you'd like to comment further?
2. Depth was another strength of the amp - its ability to cast images from the front speaker plane to seemingly one mile behind the speaker plane was another outstanding attribute. Again, your review is largely silent on depth of field performance. Can you comment further on what you found?
3. One criticism i had of the Ref II amplifier was its poor ability to capture 'body' in the vocal image. The machinery's focus on neutrality means the presentation will be considered a touch lean by some. Because of this, i preferred driving the Ref II's with valve pre-amplification which then for me summed to the perfect team - flesh plus dynamics! While i'm aware your review did not include any valve pre-amplification and that clearly you must be a 'neutral' guy given your selection of components i would nonetheless invite any comment you have on the density of the body of the vocal image.
4. Finally, you used new Furutech cables for this review. I would be personally interested to know why you favour the Evolution II cables and whether during the course of the review you inserted your Cardas cables to observe what sonic changes resulted? Personally, i found the Cardas (Golden Ref and Golden Cross) quite suitable for partnering with the Ref II's. They helped inject tonal warmth to the precedings.
Thank you guys, much appreciated. It is pretty clear to me that switching mode amplification is coming into its own, at a variety of pricepoints, with some leading products that do not owe any apologies to anyone for not containing 'traditional' technologies.
See my review of the Bel Canto Ref 1000 Mk.2 monoblock amplifier just posted on issue No. 43 of Positive Feedback Online. Yes, IMO, this is an example of an excellent and very musical high power amplifier at a Real World price, regardless of underlying technology. http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/bel_canto_ref1000.htm
I will be starting to break in a pair of Bel Canto Ref 1000 Mk2 monos very shortly. I will post my findings on Audiogon in the form of a new review thread after I reach the 1000 hours breakin mark. I won't be able to compare to the Mk.1 version because I do not have the older version at hand. I will use the JRDG 312 as a benchmark instead. Guido
Considering the MkII upgrade to Ref 1000, no local distributor to audition. Would like to hear more from those who have the oppportunity to do a direct comparison. Kal, when can we expect your article to be published?
Hello Hifipete, I agree with you that Supratek has similar charecter to Joule-Electra new preamplifier, LA-300ME but its not "there" yet. Joule-Electra always was famous for its deep articulated bass (read Golden Ear Award by HP last year) but this preamp should be even better.
Also, I don't have any disput with you - on the contrary, I am in agreement with you that ahy amp must hea heard, first of all and its manufacturer reputation for reliability and customer support must be fully investigated.
I probably, worded. my opinion poorly and I am sorry if it appeared that I am in disagreement with you
Hi DOB, Yes I agree thtt I can't have a personal (emphasis on personal) opinion until I've had a listen for myself. But they don't sell them around my neck of the woods (Montreal) and the only way to hear one is to buy one. But a topic of discussion and dispute amongst audiophiles are just like the one between us. Shaddap until ya hear for yaself. But if I've never read anything bad about this amp either from owners and the hi end press there must be something about this. Everybody can't be B.S.ing all the time. So yes my curiosity is piqued and I doubt that I will be dissapointed when I do have a listen. Now, another thing I'm picking up is that preamp match up is also critical. I'm not sure my Krell KTC is the best match. A friend of a friend of a friend.. here we go again...said that he went thru the same quest as you. You've settled on a Joule-Electra preamp, he with a Supratek (I don't know which model), and apparently (hearesay again) he's ecstatic.
I do not own Bel Canto switching amps. (I did in the past). However, I have audutioned Reference 1000 Mk2 in the same system I auditioned Mk1 - the difference was dramatic (for my ears, tastes etc)
Has anyone got to do some serious listening with both the ref1000 and ref1000 mkII?? I currently own a pair of ref1000s, and wanting to know if the 2000 for the pair is a significant upgrade in quality.
I recently replaced my bel canto eVo 6 with three Ref 1000 mk IIs because one of the Tripath boards failed. I gambled on class D technology when I bought the eVo 6 because I believed it was a step in the right direction. Even though the eVo 6 forced me to clean up my apartment AC line noise, I enjoyed the uncolored music it delivered to my speakers. The Ref 1000 mk IIs illustrate how rapidly this technology is advancing; especially with the implementation of switch mode power supplies. The later amps are producing surprisingly better bass and are dead quiet even though I reinstalled the light dimmers that contributed audible noise with the eVo 6. I'm grateful that I have made a noticeable upgrade in my system, but I'm also a little peeved that Tripath was swallowed up by a bigger fish across the pond and that the eVo6 failed just past the two warranty. No risk, no return.
Yes, rafael, this thread is very appropriate for discussing comparative opinions and even speculations of Bel canto Ref 1000 performance, as it may relate to other amplifiers of any class, including class D devices. The rest is best moved elsewhere. G.
The thread is dedicated to Bel Canto Ref 1000 Mk2 and I think concensus is that from first approximation these are first class, sorry D class ;--) amplifiers and we are trying to chat their place among that we condsider the best in class D.
I think Tvad raised excellent question: can we place among these few, the best - the company which a few people heard a few years ago and which dramatically (totally and radically!!!!!) changed its business model i.e. Guido - they want to be the different company (better for them, but does it mean better for customer?) and lost one of its main designers who also did rather profesional customer support. There are not so many such companies so I feel that Tvad question is more then appropriate. Things are so rapidly changes in this economy that I expressed my genuine (abslolutely genuine) interest where this company will be in just three months? and what other companies will be among best in class D in 3-6 months. For example, Simon left Spectron but he didn't die, did he... opened his own ("consulting" as he calls it) company... lets see. This thread is very appropriate place to discuss Bel Canto and other current, former and future contenders... I feel
Gents, whilst this is, uhrn. . . 'fascinating', we may want to migrate any further Spectron meta discussion to an appropriate Spectron-related thread. G.
Simon did more then (most of) voicing of latest iteration of Spectron amp. Everybody who auditioned Spectron stereo vs monoblock knows enormous difference between both. Yet, in most of the manuals its written by Chief Designer, John Ulrick that "we do NOT recommend to use this amp in monoblock mode " and given some "smart engineering" reasons.
Simon brought Bybee upgrade(for half-year management did not know about it or knew but forgot to audition yet) , Simon brought v-cap upgrade, Obviously I don;t know proprietary things but he even forced them to bring ceramic silver fuses, discard garbage Chinese-like soldering and use only pure WBT (that is until now...). Simon insisted that each and every change in amplifier can be upgraded to the owners of old amplifiers including Musician II made centuries ago to preserve capital invested by customer in original unit and raise "the brand loyalty".
Before he left he suggested the business plan where he introduced Musician IV concept, in details, - very new amplifier - but only as continuation of Musician III amplifier so any owner of older amp can ship it and be upgraded to the latest generation.
I cannot describe the reasons why he left the company, company almost nobody heard about before he jointed and now praised by everybody - but it mist be good reasons and I would venture only one guess - owners wanted more profit, now, today, after lunch!
We will see what will happened with Joule-Electra (new preamp is coming to my house...), Elrod and other companies he now works with. And he is "just" retired electrical engineer (not even audio engineer) and former concert pianist... and its all is hobby for him (he gets paid of course but his life does not depend on it)
I also want to see that will happened with Spectron and not in three years but in three months! Today's Spectron is first class product for sure. However, nobody knowledgeable answers phone now, nor answers e-mail now - do they think they sell refrigerators to idiots? Will they keep quality, expensive parts like silver fuses, will they do QA on each shipped amp.... we will see.
Their luck is that their production engineer is very hard working fellow so the product is always be supported.
Hundreds of new companies raised and died over last few decades and greed was usually main reason (of failure not rise).
"Also, Spectron probably needs to mature in the market a little longer before we really know how it stands up on important issues, like reliability, customer service, etc."
They are already there, in stratosphere...I am not sure if you know - Simon Thacher left Spectron and opened his own consulting business. He now works with David Elrod on speaker cables to serve high power amplifiers (sorry, I mean serve them well..) and a few weeks ago fall in love with Joule-Electra new super preamp so he works there as well.
Spectron had a great name three years ago before Simon joint company (reliability, customer support etc) and I bet they will do it after him even better.
Before, he was and here and there and did this and did that. Now (look at their web site/contact, please) they have a special sales guy (just saw his first amp at RMAF 2008 but a great seller I heard) - to build extensive dealer network and if you have any tehcnical question like how it works, extraordinarely rare repair or somethin' you have another phone - Toni, the wife of chief designer John Ulrick and if she does not know nobody does. She is his wife!
Reliability? Before Simon was sitting like a camel on their QA people and now they are free from his despotic manners and do QA as (and when) they wish.
And amplifiers are good. Nobody will ever hear from me a negative words about Spectron products!!! I still have my monoblocks
Hifipete, before we crown a KING of Class D we need to reconsider Jeff Rowland Design Group's latest offerings. Having heard the Spectron in monoblock, I'd put it as a contender, but further listening is needed to crown a king. Also, Spectron probably needs to mature in the market a little longer before we really know how it stands up on important issues, like reliability, customer service, etc.
Have you seriously audutioned Spectron monoblocks? If so then your words have some serious "weight" If not then you simply repeat that other repeated after others who repeated....
I am not interested today in any class D amplifiers and if I would auditioned Bel Canto in serious manner then I would try to find matching associated eqipment. One can find something very amusical in truthful amplifier which may or may not reflect deficiency somewhere else in the system.
I must admit that it took me a while to build a system around Spectron and then...in few minutes after encounter with latest and best Joule-Electra preamp everything failed and I had to (had no choice !!!!) order this preamp..to have entirely different experience.
I am afraid that after all I can't judge audio equipment by means other "it grabbed me and I hear all my old disc as new and cound't leave the room" or.. this preamp has this and that i.e. analytical approach whereas audio IS purely emotional experience. Being professional musician make me to pay more for the equipment, I am afraid, as I cant stand euphonic colorations some confused as musicality.
Sorry, I can't wait for my Marianne Electra Preamp...
First of all, many thanks for all of your insights. Especially to Dob who favorably compares the Spectron in monoblock configuration as besting some of the best linear amps out there. And being a musician to boot! Now having some friends who are musicians themselves, I can state that they have the ''ear''. And those opinions to me really count. So what I've been suspecting all along that Spectron is presently KING of class D is looking more and more true the more I read up on it. I've tried out the Bel Cantos in their latest iteration 2 months ago, and for ''slam'' they equaled my Krell FPB 300c driving my Eggleston Andras. But musically, something was lacking. So Dob, I can tell you to go ahead and audition them, but they won't best the Spectron from what I can read here. And yes Dev, I intend to put something under the Andras other than the rubber feet I'm now using.
Hi Dave, my review article of Vienna Mahlers with sidebars on JRDG 312 and Sumiko Masters set is on The Absolute Sound issue 188 for December 2008. . . I think the main article starts at page 76 or 78.
Rafael, believe it or not, we appear to agree. Like yourself, I am not in a position of judging any power amp to be the ''best'. I probably spent about 3 hours with the Spectron Mus 3 stereo in 07, which is about as much time I spent this year with the Bel Canto Ref 500 Mk.2. The 2 rooms were both acoustically very good, if very different; In the end, I had sufficient time with both amps to tentatively flag them towards the top of my prefs. If and when I have the opportunity of comparing them directly to Theta Citadels, or JRDG 312, I may be able to confirm and hone my opinion of them, or instead recant.
"I was just correcting your statement with a pertinent example" - unless you state that H2O amplifier is in the same class as Jeff Rowland 312 you dod not correct or in-correct anything but thank you for your kind thoughts.
Guido, I know that Jeff Rowland 312 and Continium (I believe) uses swithing power supplies and also power correction which help regulate this power supply (but not to 100%!!) and so what?
With this exception (and I believe I stated it in my post above and if not I am bitterly sorry) - every class D amplifier which uses switching power supplies provides inferior performance IN MY OPINION.
We talked, however, about Bel Canto Mk2 - I don't know if they use witching power supplies (I suspect so) and if so is it with power correction or not.
Where I strongly disagree with you - its only in one thing. I cannot make final judgment on the piece of equipment based only on its sonics during audio show with imperfect acoustic, thousands of people etc. If you can - fine, just please don;t force me too. its possible that I will investigate seriously Bel Canto and I will agree with you - and I will state so publicly and until that time let me stay with the opinion that Bel Canto was very good and worth investigating but... no more. You recommend this amp for people to buy to spent big money and I can't (yet..).
I hope it clarifies things. Sometimes, I feel on this forum as in the court of low - you say a word incorrectly or correctly and word has more then one meaning - you are "attacked". Its OK, I can live with it, rather happily (I have my Spectrons!!!!!)
All The Best Rafael P.S. I am out of this "discussion"
Rafael, while there is moderate correlation -- at least in principle -- between price and performance, I prefer not to venture too many prognostications. By the way, JRDG 312 uses twin swwitching power supplies, rather than linear/toroidals. See the sidebar on 312 on issue 188 of TAS--I believe around page 80. My general philosophy on the subject of power supplies is best summarized by the words of Igor Stravinsky in the Poetics Of Music: "By its fruit we judge the tree. Judge the tree by its fruit then, and do not meddle with the roots. Function justifies an organ, no matter how strange the organ may appear in the eyes of those who are not accustomed to see it functioning." For the time being, I can only state that I really liked what little I heard of the Bel Canto Mk.2 series, and that they are currently somewhere towards the top of my preferencial non-integrated amplifying heap, together with the class D JRDG 312 stereo, the class A/B Theta Citadel monos, and the class D Spectron. .
"H20 Class D amplifiers use very robust torroid/capacitor power supplies"
..and its probably one of the reason why they have a good reputation.
To know exactly what they are capable of (in power department) I would like to know their peak power (Spectron 7000 watts) their peak voltage (Spectron +/- 240 volts) duration (Spectron - 0.4 second) Distortions - AT FULL OUTPUT and at 20 kHz, I don;t remember that of Spectron but you can find it on their web site. Most other manufacturers show their distortion levels at 10 watts and 1 kHz - which is not highly relevant to real music
Good capability do not translate automatucally into good performance, obviously. However, poor or mediocre capability CANNOT be transpated into good performance.
Again, the "power" of Krell is not in its rms but in its massive power supplies
Note, most class D manufacturers include in their specs words "soft clipping" and why? ...because they clip but if you are semi-deaf it will not hurt your hearing!
I have nothing against H2O - in its price range its one of the best (as I understand).
I did not do SERIOUS auditioning of this amp yet (I might). I heard it at RMAF 2008 where I liked it (yes, I liked it) but to make full impression based on exhibition - would be immature. I also have ...suspition that two Spectrons in monoblocks with full upgrades are better (as they should for $21k retail!)
"Yes although I found the BC's interesting, something's missing, They didn't best my KRELL FPB 300c in sound, but most surprisingly not even in power. "
The real power of the amplifier is NOT in its rated rms as you will be normally using 5-10% of it.
The real power of the amplifier is in its headroom which is mostly defined by its power supply and Krell is good there (just look at its weight - mostly its transformer and heatsinks).
If you want "explosive" power then the fastest and having greatest power in the world is the pair of Spectron monoblocks ( 7000 watts over 0.5 seconds) More powerful then any Krell and more importantly much more MUSICAL (and I am professional cellist). Agaid - MUSICAL - involving, seductive etc. Matched with right preamplifier and you are in heaven. I am biased ...may be - I own the pair and it is better then any amp I have auditioned including MBL 9002, Plinius Regerence mono etc - except one amp - $60k Rite of Passage by Joule-Electra - if you are in high maintenance of OTL amplifiers.
All The Best Rafael P.S. All other American class D amps (with exception of Jeff Rowland 312) are using inferior switching "weak" power supplies which do not allows great headroom for the feeling of power and effortlessness. Bel Canto including... I am afraid
Dev, I agree with you that Rowland 501 monos, and even NuForce, and by all accounts the original Bel Canto 1000 Mk.1 may not yield the ultimate musical involvement. On the other hand, since then designs have been evolving rather rapidly, and some of the most recent class D designs, including the Bel Canto Mk.2 devices discussed here, have IMO reached a level of subtlety and involving musicality worth a new listen. Granted, top performing class D amps are not necessarily all inexpensive any longer, as the Rowland 312 stereo, and well appointed Spectron monos are in the same ballpark as the Pass X600.5. Conversely, The Mk.2 versions of the Bel Canto Ref500 and Ref 1000 are still more modestly priced. Yet, all of these devices have now reached performance levels that have little to do with switching amps of old. . . meaning of just 2 or 3 years ago (grins!) G.
I hear you, I'm located just North of Toronto area and also have interest in the mono blocks only and would like a audition in home before committing but a broken-in pair. Just so you are aware 6sonsaudio in Winnipeg, MB is now a dealer so you could contact them.
There is lots of "BUZZ" about the new MK2 Bel Canto's so if I was you should check them out and compare.
I personally use to own the Andra 2's which are marvelous speakers and while owning them bought a few class "D" amps to see what all the hype was about. You can check out my previous threads for more detailed info. but in the end I found the over all sound were not for me, were not emotionally evolving in comparison to traditional amps. After aprox. 8 months of listening to "D" amps I found my self not listening as much, jumping from song to song and not listening to the entire piece, not a good sign.
I then installed McIntosh 501 mono's while still owning the Andra's and WOW!, I was impressed. Had those for some time and really really enjoyed them but then had a chance to get some Pass X600.5 monos. Still had the Mac's in my system for about 6 months and installed the Pass amps, well another WOW! just couldn't believe what I was hearing, not to knock the Mac's though. My pre-amp with all of these pces was the Audio Research Ref3 hooked-up in balance mode.
Re-installed Jeff Rowland 501 monos, Bel Canto 1000's and lastly Nuforce 9's to compare, well they just couldn't compare and preferred by a large margin the Mac and Pass so I sold all of them.
The Pass through off allot of heat, the Mac's no heat.
I ended up with the Pass, my suggestion to you if heat is not an issue is to get some of the Pass XA.5 CLASS A amps to demo as I believe they would be an ideal match with the Andra's but that being said the Spectron in mono block configuration only could be very interesting. I have to say I'm still skeptical though due to my experience to date with class d amps.
Keep us up dated and enjoy those Andra's. Just a heads up put some Systrum SP1 platforms underneath them, you will be amazed with the improvement and well worth the money, bass, stage and just over all sound improves.
Yes although I found the BC's interesting, something's missing, They didn't best my KRELL FPB 300c in sound, but most surprisingly not even in power. I was sure the 200w/ch advantage wcould've been heard, but not really. So the KRELL at 300w/ch is very conservatively rated. I'm looking for more power to drive my Egglestons, but without sacrificing the sound. It's a tall order to beat the KRELL I'm realizing. Maybe I should go for his big brother the FPB 700cx. Now THAT would rock. The problem with manufacturers not being represented here limits one's choices, and although a listening can be arranged in one's home, it's prohibitive by tha fact that you have to BUY it. And even if you can return it within a month, if you're not satisfied, you still pay shipping BOTH WAYS! That kills it for me. I'm not buying something ''blind'' without hearing it in my set-upp first, especially at those prices. I could buy a FPB700cx blind, like the one on Audiogon going for 6300$, because I own KRELL gear and know what to expect; I won't be dissapointed. But I'm curious about Spectron. D_ _n, why doesn't anyone up here pick up this line of amplifiers? Are they all asleep that they're deaf to all the buzz about these?
You're probably right Guidocorona, especially if you got it from the horse's mouth about no REF 2000's. I got this from the distributor in Ottawa (Canada), could be wishfull thinking at work here. Thanks.
All the responses after my post are interesting indeed. And yes iSanchez, I'm seriously looking at the Spectron in mono mode. But living in Canada (Montreal) there's no representation here and I really would like to audition in home before making a move. I think Spectron has a ''lead'' on everyone else since they've been at it the longest (class D) and make a lot of their own components. Cheers!
-Always read your reviews with great interest. Thank you. You may be not aware but Spectron Audio mentioned your reviews of Tripath based Bel Canto amplifiers as an excellent illustration of some boring engineering points.
I, too, am curious and will make some enquiries but is not likely unless one or more of these suddenly shows up on my doorstep. Besides, all of the ones you list sell for 2x or more than the BCs.
I am looking forward to your review. Would be very interesting for many of us if you would do some comparison with two flagships of digital amplifiers in this country: Spectron Musician III Mk2 ($14k/pr or $21k with full upgrades) and Jeff Rowland 312 ($15k). Kharma for $30k and Weiss for $30k also are good competitors from Europe.
I feel that (digital) class D amplifiers are more or less matured - perhaps, now its the right time for them to go down in price - exactly as other moderm technologies did
Kal, when the new amps are burned in please let us know your impresions about the differences you find between both models. I'm sure it'll be very interesting for many of us. Thanks in advance.
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