The new BC reference amplifiers are indeed spectacular. I wish I can put them against Jeff Rowland 312 and Spectron directly but price-vise - these are simply unbeatable !!!! |
Guido - you are absolutely right! The entire system in Bel Canto room was pretty remarkable. I think new Bel Canto is something which deserve more attention then older ones
All The Best
Rafael |
Dear Kal,
I am looking forward to your review. Would be very interesting for many of us if you would do some comparison with two flagships of digital amplifiers in this country: Spectron Musician III Mk2 ($14k/pr or $21k with full upgrades) and Jeff Rowland 312 ($15k). Kharma for $30k and Weiss for $30k also are good competitors from Europe.
I feel that (digital) class D amplifiers are more or less matured - perhaps, now its the right time for them to go down in price - exactly as other moderm technologies did
Thank you very much in advance. |
Hello HiFiPete:
"Yes although I found the BC's interesting, something's missing, They didn't best my KRELL FPB 300c in sound, but most surprisingly not even in power. "
The real power of the amplifier is NOT in its rated rms as you will be normally using 5-10% of it.
The real power of the amplifier is in its headroom which is mostly defined by its power supply and Krell is good there (just look at its weight - mostly its transformer and heatsinks).
If you want "explosive" power then the fastest and having greatest power in the world is the pair of Spectron monoblocks ( 7000 watts over 0.5 seconds) More powerful then any Krell and more importantly much more MUSICAL (and I am professional cellist). Agaid - MUSICAL - involving, seductive etc. Matched with right preamplifier and you are in heaven. I am biased ...may be - I own the pair and it is better then any amp I have auditioned including MBL 9002, Plinius Regerence mono etc - except one amp - $60k Rite of Passage by Joule-Electra - if you are in high maintenance of OTL amplifiers.
All The Best
Rafael
P.S. All other American class D amps (with exception of Jeff Rowland 312) are using inferior switching "weak" power supplies which do not allows great headroom for the feeling of power and effortlessness. Bel Canto including... I am afraid |
Hello Guido,
I did not do SERIOUS auditioning of this amp yet (I might). I heard it at RMAF 2008 where I liked it (yes, I liked it) but to make full impression based on exhibition - would be immature. I also have ...suspition that two Spectrons in monoblocks with full upgrades are better (as they should for $21k retail!)
All The Best,
Rafael |
Hello Tvad,
"H20 Class D amplifiers use very robust torroid/capacitor power supplies"
..and its probably one of the reason why they have a good reputation.
To know exactly what they are capable of (in power department) I would like to know
their peak power (Spectron 7000 watts)
their peak voltage (Spectron +/- 240 volts)
duration (Spectron - 0.4 second)
Distortions - AT FULL OUTPUT and at 20 kHz, I don;t remember that of Spectron but you can find it on their web site.
Most other manufacturers show their distortion levels at 10 watts and 1 kHz - which is not highly relevant to real music
Good capability do not translate automatucally into good performance, obviously. However, poor or mediocre capability CANNOT be transpated into good performance.
Again, the "power" of Krell is not in its rms but in its massive power supplies
Note, most class D manufacturers include in their specs words "soft clipping" and why? ...because they clip but if you are semi-deaf it will not hurt your hearing!
I have nothing against H2O - in its price range its one of the best (as I understand).
All The Best
Rafael |
Hello Tvad,
"I was just correcting your statement with a pertinent example" - unless you state that H2O amplifier is in the same class as Jeff Rowland 312 you dod not correct or in-correct anything but thank you for your kind thoughts.
Guido,
I know that Jeff Rowland 312 and Continium (I believe) uses swithing power supplies and also power correction which help regulate this power supply (but not to 100%!!) and so what?
With this exception (and I believe I stated it in my post above and if not I am bitterly sorry) - every class D amplifier which uses switching power supplies provides inferior performance IN MY OPINION.
We talked, however, about Bel Canto Mk2 - I don't know if they use witching power supplies (I suspect so) and if so is it with power correction or not.
Where I strongly disagree with you - its only in one thing. I cannot make final judgment on the piece of equipment based only on its sonics during audio show with imperfect acoustic, thousands of people etc.
If you can - fine, just please don;t force me too.
its possible that I will investigate seriously Bel Canto and I will agree with you - and I will state so publicly and until that time let me stay with the opinion that Bel Canto was very good and worth investigating but... no more.
You recommend this amp for people to buy to spent big money and I can't (yet..).
I hope it clarifies things. Sometimes, I feel on this forum as in the court of low - you say a word incorrectly or correctly and word has more then one meaning - you are "attacked". Its OK, I can live with it, rather happily (I have my Spectrons!!!!!)
All The Best
Rafael
P.S. I am out of this "discussion" |
Hello HifiPete,
Have you seriously audutioned Spectron monoblocks? If so then your words have some serious "weight" If not then you simply repeat that other repeated after others who repeated....
I am not interested today in any class D amplifiers and if I would auditioned Bel Canto in serious manner then I would try to find matching associated eqipment. One can find something very amusical in truthful amplifier which may or may not reflect deficiency somewhere else in the system.
I must admit that it took me a while to build a system around Spectron and then...in few minutes after encounter with latest and best Joule-Electra preamp everything failed and I had to (had no choice !!!!) order this preamp..to have entirely different experience.
I am afraid that after all I can't judge audio equipment by means other "it grabbed me and I hear all my old disc as new and cound't leave the room" or.. this preamp has this and that i.e. analytical approach whereas audio IS purely emotional experience. Being professional musician make me to pay more for the equipment, I am afraid, as I cant stand euphonic colorations some confused as musicality.
Sorry, I can't wait for my Marianne Electra Preamp...
All The Best
Rafael |
Hello Dave,
"Also, Spectron probably needs to mature in the market a little longer before we really know how it stands up on important issues, like reliability, customer service, etc."
They are already there, in stratosphere...I am not sure if you know - Simon Thacher left Spectron and opened his own consulting business. He now works with David Elrod on speaker cables to serve high power amplifiers (sorry, I mean serve them well..) and a few weeks ago fall in love with Joule-Electra new super preamp so he works there as well.
Spectron had a great name three years ago before Simon joint company (reliability, customer support etc) and I bet they will do it after him even better.
Before, he was and here and there and did this and did that. Now (look at their web site/contact, please) they have a special sales guy (just saw his first amp at RMAF 2008 but a great seller I heard) - to build extensive dealer network and if you have any tehcnical question like how it works, extraordinarely rare repair or somethin' you have another phone - Toni, the wife of chief designer John Ulrick and if she does not know nobody does. She is his wife!
Reliability? Before Simon was sitting like a camel on their QA people and now they are free from his despotic manners and do QA as (and when) they wish.
And amplifiers are good. Nobody will ever hear from me a negative words about Spectron products!!! I still have my monoblocks
All The Best
Rafael |
Dear Tvad,
Simon did more then (most of) voicing of latest iteration of Spectron amp. Everybody who auditioned Spectron stereo vs monoblock knows enormous difference between both. Yet, in most of the manuals its written by Chief Designer, John Ulrick that "we do NOT recommend to use this amp in monoblock mode " and given some "smart engineering" reasons.
Simon brought Bybee upgrade(for half-year management did not know about it or knew but forgot to audition yet) , Simon brought v-cap upgrade, Obviously I don;t know proprietary things but he even forced them to bring ceramic silver fuses, discard garbage Chinese-like soldering and use only pure WBT (that is until now...). Simon insisted that each and every change in amplifier can be upgraded to the owners of old amplifiers including Musician II made centuries ago to preserve capital invested by customer in original unit and raise "the brand loyalty".
Before he left he suggested the business plan where he introduced Musician IV concept, in details, - very new amplifier - but only as continuation of Musician III amplifier so any owner of older amp can ship it and be upgraded to the latest generation.
I cannot describe the reasons why he left the company, company almost nobody heard about before he jointed and now praised by everybody - but it mist be good reasons and I would venture only one guess - owners wanted more profit, now, today, after lunch!
We will see what will happened with Joule-Electra (new preamp is coming to my house...), Elrod and other companies he now works with. And he is "just" retired electrical engineer (not even audio engineer) and former concert pianist... and its all is hobby for him (he gets paid of course but his life does not depend on it)
I also want to see that will happened with Spectron and not in three years but in three months! Today's Spectron is first class product for sure. However, nobody knowledgeable answers phone now, nor answers e-mail now - do they think they sell refrigerators to idiots? Will they keep quality, expensive parts like silver fuses, will they do QA on each shipped amp.... we will see.
Their luck is that their production engineer is very hard working fellow so the product is always be supported.
Hundreds of new companies raised and died over last few decades and greed was usually main reason (of failure not rise).
All The Best
Rafael
|
Hello Guido,
The thread is dedicated to Bel Canto Ref 1000 Mk2 and I think concensus is that from first approximation these are first class, sorry D class ;--) amplifiers and we are trying to chat their place among that we condsider the best in class D.
I think Tvad raised excellent question: can we place among these few, the best - the company which a few people heard a few years ago and which dramatically (totally and radically!!!!!) changed its business model i.e. Guido - they want to be the different company (better for them, but does it mean better for customer?) and lost one of its main designers who also did rather profesional customer support. There are not so many such companies so I feel that Tvad question is more then appropriate. Things are so rapidly changes in this economy that I expressed my genuine (abslolutely genuine) interest where this company will be in just three months? and what other companies will be among best in class D in 3-6 months. For example, Simon left Spectron but he didn't die, did he... opened his own ("consulting" as he calls it) company... lets see.
This thread is very appropriate place to discuss Bel Canto and other current, former and future contenders... I feel
All The Best
Rafael |
Hello Hifipete, I agree with you that Supratek has similar charecter to Joule-Electra new preamplifier, LA-300ME but its not "there" yet. Joule-Electra always was famous for its deep articulated bass (read Golden Ear Award by HP last year) but this preamp should be even better.
Also, I don't have any disput with you - on the contrary, I am in agreement with you that ahy amp must hea heard, first of all and its manufacturer reputation for reliability and customer support must be fully investigated.
I probably, worded. my opinion poorly and I am sorry if it appeared that I am in disagreement with you
All The Best
Rafael |
