Those old martin logan SL3 most likely lost some of the high frequency they were capable of reproducing during their younger years, unless you vacuumed them on a regular basis and gave the panels a nice bath once a year. Those panels have a life span you know. May be together with the new dac swap the panels. Or better yet upgrade the speakers. Get that soul back.
Needing DAC Advice
My main, current system is a Schiit Urd through a Benchmark DAC3 B through a Schiit Freya+ (running in passive mode exclusively - I haven't even tried the tube output), to Pass Labs X150's to Martin Logan SL3's (and a couple of rythmik subs).
When I 'listen' to music, I listen to CD's or vinyl. I don't stream - too many places for signal compromise in the streaming chain for my tastes and, more importantly, I'm vehemently opposed to paying a provider who profits by paying artists virtually nothing for their content. When I can, I buy physical media directly from the artists I want to hear.
A brief description of my pathway to here: the best-sounding system (for me) I've ever had was a modded Wadia 831 direct to a Pass Lab amp to ML's. (I'm a less is more adherent). I replaced the Wadia, as it was getting long in the tooth and I was worried about service, with an Oppo BDP105, then a modded 105D, again, directly driving the amps. Decent, but not the magic of the Wadia.
Which brings me to today - a transport and DAC. After much research, I went with the URD (because of the transport) through the Benchmark .I added the Freya+ in case I want to add vinyl to this system and the fact that the Freya is a 3-in-1 preamp. (I've got another, tube-based system for vinyl).
And here's the issue. The system is not a terribly musical-sounding set up. It 'sounds' very good: great detail, fast, big soundstage, blah, blah, blah...All those adjectives we regularly throw around. It's very 'there'! Sounds better than with the Oppo. But it is not...engaging? No soul?
I'm thinking it's the DAC. Maybe I'm just might not be a fan of Sabre or DS in general. Maybe I need try an R2R DAC. So, I started looking: Border Patrol, Denefripes, Mojo Audio, MHDT Orchid, HoloAudio, Lab 12, or even the Schiit Yggy.. Some of these add tubes which I'm not sure I want to do unless they can be bypassed (much as I love tubes, I'm not sure a DAC is the right place to use them.) Finally, before I go down the DAC rabbit hole, I will give the Freya tube output some serious listening, just in case tubes are the missing link. Otherwise, my questions are do you think that R2R is directionally correct and, if so, what suggestions/recommendations might you have? Thanks and I apologize for the length but I'm well aware that more detail I can provide upfront, the more useful your responses are likely to be.
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With regard to your statement that there are “too many places for signal compromise in the streaming chain”, I have found the opposite to be true if using a current dedicated streamer/server. Current streamers have sophisticated clocks to assure timing accuracy prior to data transfer to the DAC which again times the data before conversion reducing timing distortion. Many use a cache to assure the data is complete and the computer in the server performs data checks before transfer to the DAC. Modern streamers are well shielded and have sophisticated power supplies. There are no mechanical vibrations and noise generators as in cd transports. There is no concern with laser usable life and the fact that replacements for many models are out of production. I believe you will get more “soul” using a good modern streamer. Look at Aurender (my fav), Lumin, and Grimm, I agree with protest position with regard to artist compensation by streaming services. However consider the following. The supply and demand model has changed in favor of streaming over physical media. The record label or publisher is compensated by the streaming service, not the artist, directly or through collection societies. Therefore, the label is as much to blame. The compensation algorithm favors popular artists over new artists because it is based on the number of plays. However, new artists benefit from being noticed on streaming services. I weekly look for content. Therefore, the compensation model is flawed and needs revision. |
I'll be upgrading my DAC later this year, and at the top of the list will be the new Denafrips Terminator 15th. Audioman58 is the distributor, and sells them here on Agon. I very much liked the Holo Audio May DAC KTE, but the Terminator II (older model) beat it out. I'll also look at T+A 200, Lampizator, Berkeley, MSB.....but based on my experience with Denafrips DACs, it may be hard to keep me from the Terminator |
Don't leave out the modified Directstream MK1 We and other audiophiles compared it to many high end DAC’s and even a duplicate of the same in order to make it even better. We purchased and sold many DAC’s in the process. Started with the Denifrips Pontus (sold), Terminator Plus 12th (sold) Holo May level 3 (sold) and many others. Just finished with the dCS Bartok Apex ring DAC (sold).
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I am totally in love with my MUSICAL PARADISE mk2 DAC at 1000 bucks its absolutely amazing and better I believe or equal to a Pontus R2R if you get one of these and hot rod it out with say siemens CCA grey plate and new caps. I mean it's not a Bricasti which I have heard and are very amazing. Very detailed. but you get like a border patrol or a musical paradise mk2 and it has a special allure especially for vocals like EVA Cassidy and Nora Jones type stuff that will blow everything else out of the water. Its more lush and rich sounding. And it has more weight not as thin. |
I have been through a dozen or so DACs spanning ESS, AKM, FPGA, R2R and am currently enjoying a Berkeley Alpha DAC Series 2, it is an older model but can be had used ~$2K and at that price it is an incredible value, detailed but no glare, non-fatiguing, very balanced presentation. No USB input though so I am running an Aurender N200 USB --> Denafrips Gaia AES --> Berkeley Alpha. |
Hard to know what you mean by 'no soul' I suspect that is different for many individuals, by no soul, does that suggest a since of 2 dimensions, or lack of med-range impact, or less encompassing mid to lower base? Best to start with your weak points in the system, I found in my system, the weak points were initially in my cables, power, interconnects and speakers cables, over time I replaced all of them. As you mentioned, its a rabbit hole for sure, once I found that solved one problem, I went to better speakers, then a better pre-amp, and finally a better dac (only due to my theta dac had failed) One of the biggest differences, and most expensive equipment changes were the cables, at least they dont really wear out, once you make the investment, unlike other electronic equipment I went to NBS black label from transparent cables, ultimately that gave me the start to holography and separation I was looking for, after witch I added a better speaker, German Physiks system from Thiel CS5's, followed by better preamp and amp, from krell integrated to Einstein tube pre-amp and Halcro mono amps Every step made a difference, because I was replacing a weak point with something better, in other words, the rabbit hole Finally replaced my burned out theta dac with a Weiss 501 DAC, the Weiss may be a bit better that the theta, newer tech, I have a soft spot for theta, it ultimately about synergy, however it all started with the cable system, once that was set I could hear the differences in further additions, good or not so good, and make a informed decision on upgrading older equipment
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I pair my modified Directstream DAC with an Audio Research Ref 6SE pre. The quality of the SDM and a very low jitter clock is just as important as the output stage. I use a Denafrips Hermes DDC to connect the DAC to our streamer. Best I have ever heard from all DAC's we compared it to. Very realistic and dynamic. |
I think I'm alergic to ESS Sabre dacs. Tried reviewed and recommended ESS dacs like Yulong, Nuprime, SimAudio, Auralic Vega and others and while I tried to like them, none sounded very musical to me. My Hegel HD30 Dac on the other hand had an AKM "Velvet Sound" DS chip and it sounded very good. Had PS Direcstream Mk I and Mk II Dacs and they sounded ok but their FPGA designs seemed to leave detail on the table when I compared it to the Vega G2 which was highly detailed. Finally found the Holo May (R2R) dac and it seems to have great detail while preserving musicality across the board. Just seems effortless and stays out of the way. I'll note that this dac has a very good class A output stage. So, some dac architectures/implementations simply may not work for your ears. Luckily, the used market is quite good right now - have fun! |
Agree. The PS Direcstream Mk I and Mk II in stock form do need more detail and better imaging performance. With the proper mods and custom nickel audio transformers it's a different game. The SDM is programed in the FPGA. No off the shelf DAC chips are used. These DAC's convert all incoming signals to 10x DSD then to DSD256 for the bitslinger to pass to the audio transformers via 8 high speed opamps. |
(Took the week off to do a little skiing...) This is still with the Freya in passive mode. So the only changes were to add more power (bi-amping) and changing speaker cables and interconnects. I'm not a believer in cable magic so I'm hesitant to give those changes much credit. Which I guess means the extra headroom is the difference maker. |
@jk_richards Are you working on mods for the MK2. It seems like it would be a good thing as long as the mods didn't interfere with the software upgrades but if you strictly upgraded hardware I don't see how it would affect it. |
This is tough to nail down as it’s highly subjective on where to stop relative to affordability. @trn - as you’ve discovered, it’s the whole audio chain that matters. A better preamp and/or amp might move you in the right direction. Lower costs DACs may measure well and give excellent detail, but iirc it’s the analog output design that’s key to better engagement. Here’s a list of notable positive reviewed DACs:
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@classicrockfan "you don't want to spend more than 1k for a Chinese DAC. These Chinese DACs outperform most US/European made units that cost 10x more. “
my last Gustard DAC is A22, which is an excellent implementation of Akamai Tech. DAC chip design! excellent quality/performance PCB, components etc.. why price downgrade? |
When you say 'Im not a believer in cable magic', I look at cables as another piece of equipment. not unlike a new amp or transport, none of which are magical, they simply add a new character to the sound, preferably a better sound, or swap it out for another, when going down the long road of being a audiophile, Im guessing another phase for magic, could be a bigger well defined soundstage, holography, three dimensional. has soul, whatever vernacular you wish to apply, cables, like tubes, can add a greater since of the above and are analogs to any other piece of equipment in your system that makes a difference, nothing necessarily magic about any single piece of equipment, cumulatively this is where you find the alluring and addictive synergy. As it has been stated many times, when getting 'new' equipment, all of us think we have made a mistake, sounds flat, dull, until we take the time needed to break-in the piece of equipment, parenthetically cables are especially sensitive to this break-in period Even when knowing this break-in period is required, still painful process, I just bought a new DAC from Weiss audio, talked with Daniel Weiss about this break-in period, he told me only takes 24 hours, he was just about spot on, I had to be patient, I recall my NBS black label cables took over 100 hours of break-in, not fun when paying these high prices, thinking that it was a mistake, up until the 'wizardry' starts to happen
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As I continued to research and ponder whether to re-dac or not, I made another change to this system that produced rather unexpected but very welcome results. I came across another Pass X150 at an attractive price and, well, you can never have too many good amps, right? So I picked it up. |
I'm also a long time (I'm old) pro musician/sound engineer/ne'er do well and I've always been surprised that people prefer the lower gain Freya preamp settings (that admittedly do sound excellent). I have the original version Freya (bought new) and found that tube rolling was important to really get the tube stage right, and after trying various 6SN7GTBs, NOS GEs do the trick for me. That's all it took to really elevate the thing and the other outputs seem to pale in comparison to the tubes...I use the non tube outputs simply to make sure the tubes are staying honest. I switch amps from time to time between a Pass XA-25 and a tube Dennis Had Firebottle SEP HO (high output...heh heh) and with either amp the tubes sound best. Note the earlier Freya keeps the tubes on all the time making instant comparisons between outputs possible. |
