Yes I remember. It's a crazy journey what I've been through and now it looks like im
headed back to tubes. I am actively looking for a pair of plinius sa reference amps but I heard it's being discontinued because the new amp is to be released at the end of the year.
As bad as I want to try a tube amp, the cost of ownership sucks. I mean a replacement tube set for the 150se costs 1300!! That's nuts.
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That's quite interesting about the Plinius amp, I've been keeping an eye out for a pair of SA Ref myself, only seen 1 pair listed here for the last 18 months, which I did make an offer and the seller accepted, but he backed out at the last moment. So I'm still on the hunt for a pair.
whitecamaross , do you remember us speaking over the phone last year about a pair of Dynaudio C1 Platinum I listed here. I remembered we delved into amplifiers as well. |
Ok guys, i had a chance to listen to the Plinius SB301 MK2 versus Pass labs x350.8. My preamp is the audio research reference 6.
here is the final results after quite a few hours of listening to music:
Plinius SB301Mk2: Better and fuller bass. Midrange is bold, big and almost like a tube amp. The highs are more detailed than pass labs, but they do have a tad of graininess with some material.
Pass Labs x350.8: Good bass, good midrange, awesome highs that were a tad laid back with my sonus fabers. They lacked the sparkle that the plinius had. The only advantage that i might see the pass labs have is at VERY LOUD volume levels because the sound is laid back so you don't really get ear fatigue.
To me, this is a shocking exercise. I was looking to try an amp to bring a dog fight to my x350.8 and i expected the pass amp to win, but this wasn't the case. It actually sounded "muffled" and as if my sonus fabers had the treble turned down.
In short, the steal of the century right now is the plinius sb301 mk2.
I loved it so much that i am now going to be hunting a plinius sa reference and will bring an audio research tube amp as well.
I am going to listing the plinius sb301mk2 and pass labs 350.8 for sale. I want to do another shootout between the plinius sa reference and the audio research 150se or gs150 amp.
Again, I'm shocked, but this plinius sb301 has really given me the best price/performance ratio and i will already say that it is superior to the pass labs 250.8 (I've owned it) because my 350.8 is not able to beat it. |
That is an impressive list- ysound.
I, too, have not auditioned the "cubed" series from Bryston.
On many, many occasions I have listened to the original ST and SST series. Never had a bad demo. Where did you demo the 28B3 ?
Happy Listening! I’ve owned the 28B3s 6 months now, soon after CES if I remembered correctly. Also forgot to include the BAT VK-655SE, it sit right along side the Lamm and Krell Solos. I still have the VK-655SE and the Solo 575 as well. Believed or not, I had at least 5 of the above mentioned amplifiers at one time doing A/B. Held on to the one I like most. Being the 28B3 dives the Magico Q5 really well and the Solo 575 and BAT for the Maestro. The Q5 doesn’t sounds good with the Krell or vice versa. |
The Stradivaris are pretty amazing as well. |
whitecamaross, you may wish to re-state your opinion about all older SF speakers, unless that is you have heard them all! While I generally agree with you that SOME of the older models could sound a little recessed ( or laid back), there are many that were, and are, superb on all counts. A sample of this would be the great SFGH’s that I own and the well respected SF Extrema’s, among several others. Lumping all of the brands prior work into one bucket is not correct at all IMHO, and does a MAJOR disservice to the great work of Franco Serblin. Your new Il Cremonese is a good speaker, but they are certainly not the best to come out of Sonus Faber...not even close. |
kw6-
where did you demo the 4B3 amp?
Happy Listening!
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That is an impressive list- ysound.
I, too, have not auditioned the "cubed" series from Bryston.
On many, many occasions I have listened to the original ST and SST series. Never had a bad demo. Where did you demo the 28B3 ?
Happy Listening! |
Wait till you hear a pair for 28B3, it ranked among the best for me
Below is how I'd ranks it:
1st. Bryston 28B3
2nd. REF 250 w/KT150
3rd. MSB M202
4th. Lamm M2.2 and Krell Solo 575
5th. Pass Labs XA-160.5
6th. Krell 402e
7th. ML 532 |
I recently demoed the Bryson 4b3 with B&W 802s. I found the amp detailed but not warm. Could be the speakers. Still sounds like solid state not my cup of tea. I think store should have paired it with sonus faber. Strange they paired Macintosh with sonus which made the sound have lack of top end air which B&Ws had a lot of. Anyone in this budget I much prefer Wilson Sasha speakers with Sim Audio gear. At least there was more warmth without lost of detail. |
I screwed up showing that I was quoting. Not hard to figure out though😁 |
@fsonicsmith - Look at 4 and 5 posts above your post :-)
Dave
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just heard that Classe Audio closed their doors...
If true, it would be disappointing but hardly surprising. The demise of the market for cdp's did them in I think. Their amps and preamps never caught on and they tried to go mostly-all-in with HT gear. I suspected at the time it was the beginning of the end. FWIW, Classe imo borrowed heavily from Steve McCormack on their amp designs. I still own a Classe CDP.5 I bought new shortly after it came out- it served me well until I went the route of an Aurender N100H and an AMR DP777. |
Many Thanks! whitecamaross
please feel free to give a shout-out for your fave dealers/retailers.
I know the state of Florida certainly has a few good ones.
Happy Listening!
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Where are you located whitecamaross ?
Happy Listening!
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that is the word on the street, but i can't comment. i am very close to many dealers and certain people in high places. If it is a true statement, things will be really interesting for b&w |
I just heard that Classe Audio closed their doors...
Dave
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As always, very sound advice (no pun)- whitecamaross-
The pre-amp is the heart of any system and must be selected with great care. I look forward in reading about your continued shoot-out of power amps. Keep writing and posting!
Happy Listening!
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Yes, the new sonus faber tradition line should be killer to say the least. i am glad sonus faber went away from the whole "laid back" sound. I totally hated that sound and the soundstage was narrow as well without much low end punch.
Most dealers want to make a sale and i get that. They need to make money and i respect that, but i am more of the type that does research and selects my next move very carefully and then report on what my findings are. I don’t make a dime from this thread at all and i don’t get compensation from the brands that i have praised here. As a matter of fact, sometimes i read reviews on certain magazines and i see the associated equipment that was used to present a review i realize that i have better and more reputable gear that i could use to do reviews myself. I would actually love to do that, but i am very blunt and without a filter and so if i receive a piece of equipment that i feel is terrible, i will make sure i say that because i can’t sugar coat things.
I still have pass labs, simaudio and luxman and MAYBE Mark Levinson as the top dogs as far as refinement, finesse, detail, clarity, soundstage and precision. i call this tier group the "ferrari" group.
As far as the "mustang 5.0" tier group, i would have krell, classe, bryston, belcanto, parasound halo, mcintosh. These would be those with plenty of horsepower, with punch, capable to drive anything, but do not necessarily have all the finesse and depth that the "ferrari" tier group has.
The last tier group would be the "bang for the buck". These are amps that are great and do a lot of things really well. They have power, good detail and dynamics and are well rounded, but lack the extra detail, decay, layering and bass accuracy found in the first 2 groups. I would put emotiva, cary audio, ati, theta digital, nad, parasound classic, rotel.
If you are looking for an amp to build a system upon, ALWAYS shoot for an amp that has more than the needed power when possible because this will lay the foundation of your system today and tomorrow. I say this to some of you who contact me asking for advice. Don’t skimp on amplification when possible. That said, just because an amplifier has 300 watts per channel does not mean it is better than one with 150 watts. Not all watts are created equal. REMEMBER THAT.
If you are building a system, your order of priority in terms of what you need to buy and in which order should be as follows:
1. Speakers
2. Preamplifier
3. Source
4. Amplifier
I could see why some of you would have the amplifier as #3 and the source as #4. I realized that sources are a huge part of this game. I learned this with the sonus faber cremonese more than ever before. You can’t purchase a pair of speakers that are 45k dollars and use an oppo 205 as your source or a sonos streamer or a laptop, etc. That is like buying a ferrari and buying cheap engine oil, cheap chinese tires and cheap air freshener. Really?
If you buy a speaker that is up there in terms of value, you also need to look at your front end. You need to evaluate what other components need to go and replaced. Getting better speakers do not fix all your sound problems. The right equipment also needs to be thought out in order to make the entire experience that much more real. Anytime you switch speakers, that is just the beginning of what you are about to embark on. You now need to first identify if your amp can push them (see why i said to buy a quality amp from the get go is important?) and then buy your preamp according to the flavor that you seek. If you are looking for a musical tone then go with a tube preamp, etc, etc. That should be the thought process. |
Keep writing and reporting- whitecamaross
Happy Listening!
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Witecamaross,
thanks much for a feedback on pass. Your comments are easy to understand and right to the point. No dealer has been explaining
the difference between 250.8 and 350.8 that simple and well.
The new Sonus Faber tradition line is using the same tweeter and midrange found in Cremonesse. So may be it is true what some people are saying that the new Tradition line is faster, more open and resolving.
Please keep reporting.
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hi Denon,
keep in mind that the sb301 has 2 different versions. i bought the mk2 version which i heard is significantly better than the original sb301.
Biggest difference between the 250.8 and 350.8 is of course the power reserves which puts you in a better position for the future with the 350.8.
The 350.8 has more bass without a doubt. I would say that if you listen at low volume levels, you are not missing much by staying with the 250.8. If you live in a small apartment, etc i would say save your money and keep the 250.8. However, if you like upgrading constantly like i do and like to occasionally blast music, then you are a candidate for the 350.8. The sound is fairly similar on both, but the 350.8 is always going to have more market and will be easier to sell. It is an amp that you can use for 5 years and then sell it in a day. I have owned 350.5s and they sold in days after i listed them. It is one highly desired amplifier.
As far as the biggest difference between the futuras and cremonese, they sound like 2 different speakers. They sound like they are not even made by the same company. Cremonese is the new sonus faber sound and the futuras is the old, laid back sonus faber sound. Cremonese sounds BIGGER than the martin logan renaissance and remember that those are HUGE panels on those electrostatics which should just tell you the kind of speaker that the cremonese are. I do not like anything from sonus faber other than their top 3 models: cremonese, lillium, aida. These share the best of the best design and technology and every other model just shares the aesthetics but the sound is thinner, lethargic, anemic, etc.
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Whitecamaross, Great info. Please, when you done comparing Plnius with Pass on Sonus Faber, send detailed update. I had plinius SB301 several years ago and to me it had great bass and midrange but was not that dead quiet as the pass 250.8. Since your had both pass 250.8 and 350.8, what is the biggest difference between them?
Also what is the most obvious difference between SF Futura and Cremonese?
Thank you for all your very valuable reports.
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Nice update- whitecamaross
Happy Listening!
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Ok guys, i have a couple of updates. I now am the proud owner of Sonus Faber IL Cremonese speakers and its insane how amazing this speaker truly is. If you remember correctly, i praised the martin logan rennaissance for being the best speaker i have ever heard until i heard these Sonus Faber.
Having owned the sonus faber amati futura, olympica 3s, olympica 1s, i can honestly say that i was not impressed at all. I thought they sounded thin, lethargic, narrow soundstage and zero bottom end in my room.
I was very nervous and skeptical about these because i had not been impressed before by sonus faber. That said, the minute i played these speakers, i knew it was something special. It is seriously leaps and bounds better than the logans. I want to say that now i am enjoying a massive soundstage that expands from parking lot to parking lot. Beautiful midrange and highs and a very accurate bottom end.
I am currently running mark levinson 536 monos and audio research reference 6 as my front end. This coming weekend i will have my pass labs 350.8 back in my house and will analyze things again.
Lastly, if you read my thread, you would know i have owned the plinius sa103 and sa100mk4 which i really liked. That said, the plinius sa103 sounded really amazing, but lacked bottom end. I have to believe it is the typical class a design and quite frankly that is the only complaint i have about this amp. i tried class a and class ab modes and nothing. The bass remained too gentle for my taste.
Anyhow, i just pulled the trigger on a plinius sb301 mk2 amplifier and i expect it to be a damn good challenge for my x350.8. I think that amp has enough attributes to make it a dog fight. It is said that it has sledge hammer bass and massive dynamics so it will be interesting to see how it does against my x350.8.
Things are going to get interesting again ! |
I have no experience with Ayre, but a local friend of mine has the pass labs 350.8 and ayre mxr twenty and did extensive A/B comparisons in his room and he preferred the pass labs with his rockport speakers. He said pass labs had more low end punch and more soundstage width. Long story short, he sold the ayre monos and kept his pass labs.
I do not really care for ayre to be quite honest. I have not heard it but all the reports i have had from people who i know very well keep saying the same thing to me which is that they are way overpriced like Mark Levinson and they really arent outperforming everyone else like their price tag dictates. |
When we downsize to a single stereo setup, I'll need to decide between our Parasound JC 2 preamp with JC 1 monoblocks (800 watts @ 4Ω) or our Ayre KX-5 Twenty preamp with VX-5 twenty amp (350 watts @ 4Ω) to drive KEF Reference 107/2s (4Ω 90 dB sensitivity). Anyone compared the two setups? The JC 1s really brought the 107/2s to life, especially the LF extension. I could try the Ayre units with the 107/2s, but that's heavy lifting up to the second floor.
db
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fsamb,
I have never heard those speakers, but if I needed speakers, I would by them without hearing them, because they are designed like my Klipsch Epics, but look better in some ways. the 215's are huge and mind boggling. They must sound fantastic. My speakers, which are same setup and efficiency work great with 8 watt 300b set as well as 100 watt class AB and 40 watt class A.
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I have zero knowledge of those speakers, but if they are so efficient, i recommend a small pass labs amplifier like a pass labs x30.8 for example. It is plenty of power to make those speakers truly sing. |
Thanks whitecamaross for all your posting and trials. Any thoughts on which amp(s) you feel would sync well with JTR speakers ( http://jtrspeakers.com/noesis-212htr.html)? The JTRs utilize BMS 4593he horn loaded compression drivers and are very efficient (101db). I also use JTR subs to supplement the bottom end. Thanks in advance. |
I was thinking now of trying a 50WPC tube integrated to go with my motion esl! Since you need loud I guess tubes won't work for you WhiteCamaross! |
Thanks again WhiteCamaross! Thought it would work. Haha |
Under any scenario the Salons are great speakers. However it is true that better is the enemy of good.
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I've owned the sa103. Excellent amp but it does not go well with electrostatics. It is very similar to pass Labs in terms of heat. Very nice highs too. |
Btw anyone used or heard the Plinius SA103? |
I sent you a message David! |
Thanks! for sharing- whitecamaross
Keep auditioning and posting your impressions, thoughts.
Happy Listening!
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Thanks again WhiteCamaross for putting things in perspective! 😊 |
If you think revel salon 2s are awesome speakers, go listen to the dynaudio c4 platinum and then your perception of what a good speaker sounds like will change. Dynaudio c4 demolished my revel salon 2s and then the Martin Logan renaissance squashed both of them. |
You, Sir, are not crazy. :)
@kw6 feel free to pm me should you have specific interest and questions about the Son of Ampzilla Mk2. Best of luck with your choice. |
What what a crazy world audio is. I feel that the Revel Salon 2 to be very high on any list of great speakers. In all truthfulness if the sound heard from them is not inspiring something is wrong elsewhere. Period.
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At low listening levels, say around 87 decibels and below, the Luxman is hard to best. Class a amps come really close but in my opinion the heat is too much to handle if you are only going to be listening at low volume. It's like buying a 800 horsepower mustang and only driving it at 30 mph... it's a waste of gas if you can't put the pedal to the metal. Some amps are built to be driven hard in order to hear what they're made of.
That said, I'd still take the Luxman at low volume listening levels. However, I don't recommend only buying the amp and not the preamp. The Luxman amp sounds best with the matching preamp. However, the preamp sounds awesome with any amp.
Pass labs are still the best amps for the money. These amps can put up a fight to any amp regardless of price. I almost feel the need to always have a pass labs amp on hand just because they are an excellent benchmark.
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Whitecamaross
Can the pass xa30.8 equal the Luxman in the midrange for detail, smoothness and dimensionality? I don't play that loud and listen late night in a condo! But I need to re arrange my equipment rack to accommodate the deep chassis of the amps. That's why I'm looking into say a luxman m600a same power as pass. Or coda S5.5 or Son of Ampzilla II. |
I concur- whitecamaross
I did not like the Revel either. It could have been the dealer's room or less synergy w/ the gear used during demo. Happy Listening! |
I've said it multiple times here, stop believing everything you read on the magazines. Marketing is a big business that taints the true facts about any particular product. You should only read to inform yourself and not buy thinking that the product will perform in your house exactly as the reviews stated.
I used the Revel Salon 2s as an example because i thought they were really poor sounding in my room. The Dynaudio contour c4s demolished the revel salon 2s in my room. My buddy also hated the revel studio 2s and he also said they had no bass.
Just my .02 cts |
@kw6 : Concur with audioman58. The reviews of the SST Son of Ampzilla Mk2 are on point. I've been very impressed with it. |
just go find an old Lafayette KT-550 and be done with all this! HA!
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I liked the pass. Just not as much as Agostino Rowland and Dartzeel.. The only thing I had to compare to the Pass at the same time was the Krell Chorus 5200 in two channel mode. I thought they were comparable and both good sounding Class A solid state units. Solid state is so good now I would never go tube amp. Dartzeel pre so good I wouldn't consider tubes either. But big money unless you can find a version 1 used. They fly out the door on AGON.
ARC once described tubes as being like light bulbs that can pop at any time. I crank sometimes and would be unrelaxed knowing that. No need to take a chance with my speakers...Just my two cents.
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hi there,
i had a chance to own a pair of rowland 925s, but i passed on the chance because i had pass labs xs150 monos.
I still would like to try the momentums, but again i have not found a good deal through my multiple connections.
Remember one thing, one of the ways that i am able to stay on top of this game is because of the huge network of dealers that i do business with. I've spent well over 100,000 dollars this year alone so yes i get deals that a lot of you will never see unless of course you are doing the same kind of business i do.
With all that said, right now i am prepared to buy the most expensive speakers i have ever owned and so the pass labs 350.8 and audio research ref 6 will be my 2 pieces for the time being.
As soon as i can get a deal on momentums, they will certainly make their way to me.
I think pass labs is great stuff so i am a little shocked you didnt like the 250.8. however, i suppose we all have different flavors. |
