You are in for a musical treat- whitecamaross the WW Platinum is no slouch. Are you listening to a full loom (SC, IC, PC) ? I look forward in reading more about your thoughts/impressions on this important matter. Considering your level of gear, sonic matching with cabling, is equally rewarding. Happy Listening! |
My favorite on-going thread on this site. I am currently in the process of finding and upgrading to a new multi channel amp so this thread has been helpful.
Thank you very much @whitecamaross !!!
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Insane sound with these cables. I can honestly say I hear a 15-20% improvement accross the board. It sounds as if my whole set up was upgraded from top to bottom. Better highs, tighter bass, bigger sound, just everything is that much better. I really didn’t believe this before but I am a believer now that when your equipment is of high caliber, cables are a must too.
everything coming out of the speakers is now even more separated and evenly distributed. Nothing is overdone or pushed forward too hard. The sound now feels as if it is also coming down from
the ceiling. The Luxman combo now sounds more focused and locked in. Just as good if not a tiny better than the black system
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Just started to play music using the 16,000
dollar wire world platinum 7 speaker cable and my initial impressions will come later tonight... my first rodeo with cables of this caliber. My current cable are wire wild silver 7 cables. |
I have the Lumin A-1 and absolutely loved the App. I wanted to upgrade to the S-1 but my dealer talked me into the Emm Lab DAC X2 V2. He claimed the Emm Lab is far better than the S-1. So I have the Emm Lab connected into my A-1. As I said the Lumin App for streaming is simple easy to use and no cost like Roon. I was happy with the A-1 but like you I am in the never ending quest for greater sound.
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I have two comments for you. I currently have the WW Gold Eclipse 7s on loan, and I have the Lumin S-1 as my digital source. I have not heard the Platinums, but the Golds are supposed to be 90% of the platinums, and the Golds are the most revealing cables i had had in my system so far.
As far as the S-1 goes, I bought it on reputation alone, and never heard it before I bought it. I bought it on here, at a good price, and when I installed it in my system the first night, it literally brought me to tears. Granted, my digital source before, was the Oppo 205, so aside from the Simaudio 380D, which I had for a while, my digital front end experience has not been all that extensive. The S-1 I will have for some time to come, the WW Golds are tormenting me. I did not want to spend this much money on SC, but they are like someone installed new tweeters in my speakers. The rest of my gear consists of McIntosh C1100 Pre, pair of 2301 amps, and Sonus Faber Stradivari speakers. I will be very curious as to what you think of the cables, and the Lumin should you pull the trigger. |
Update: The black system will ship back to my dealer. i have decided to let him get this entire thing upgraded to the latest version of hardware/software and then revisit this idea later on. I will begin this year with my luxman combo at full speed and have ordered the expensive d08u sacd/dac to see what it does to my music collection. |
i have used wireworld and straight wire. I am just having a chance tomorrow to bring the top of the line cable from wireworld home for me to audition it. i can't wait to see if indeed this is snake oil or going to a cable that expensive really transforms this set up. |
Thank You for the update and your hard work in 2017- whitecamaross Good to read that your Audio journey has been fruitful in search of audiophile nirvana. Which brands of cabling have you used during all of those audition/demo sessions? Happy Listening!
Staying tuned... |
has anyone heard the lumin s1 streamer/dac? i am curious about it and have an opportunity to grab one at a decent price. |
tomorrow i will be test driving the wireworld platinum 7 speaker cables which retail for 16,000 dollars... it will be one hell of a test that i will be doing here. Has anyone heard these? |
Zprr: your simaudio is a good combo. I suggest anyone here to try the luxman pieces first before moving to a black system. |
You can’t expect dynamics from a 30 watt per channel integrated. Dynamics require power and control and With 30 watts it’s just tough to ask for that.
Also, luxman isn’t known for dynamics and swings. That’s not their game. Their game is smoothness, detail, no fatigue, huge soundstage. Japanese products aren’t known for dynamics. That’s what American products are known for. |
Whitecamaross,
Indeed the Luxman amps are receiving very good revieuws all over. What they do good they do extremely good.
I did not heard the separates 900u, but instead one of the newer big integrates, I think it was one of the 590 models.
While it was a very pleasant and smooth sound, it was somewhat too smooth for my taste. Everything was sounding smooth, even if it was not in the recording.
It was also not the last word in resolution and dynamics.
These things came back also readily in the revieuws I read about Luxman amps, btw also in their cd-players.
I thought that the Bell Canto Black was also more dynamic in your system.
As usual system-energy is key!
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Thank you for the reply whitecamaross! I was curious as I am currently running the Sim 740P, 870A, 780D DAC combo to YG Carmel 2s (small/mid size room) and am debating whether I should switch to the Lux combo or Bel Black in search of some warmth and added soundstage without losing the current articulation and detail... Unfortunately, my dealer doesn't carry the Lux for a demo, as you note it is a small network. Thanks again for all the information you have assembled! |
I didn’t buy it but I heard it’s supposed to be amazing. That said, based on a review online, the luxman 900u is superior.
I keep getting questions on amplifiers and I keep saying the SAME THING over and over again. The luxman 900u is the best amp I have heard for under 20k. No other amp has been able to beat it in my room. No Hegel, no simaudio, no McIntosh lol, no pass labs (unless it’s the expensive xs amps or xa200s) no Classe, Bryston, Mark Levinson, etc.
This is why I have owned it 3 times! The first 2 times I sold it, it sold in one day the first one and in 3 days the second one. No major discount on current luxman pieces either. It’s a small network of dealers and they monitor their product here like hawks. Dealers get killed the minute they try to sell their product online. I’ve never seen so a strict company. If you’re waiting for a used 900u amp, you’ll have to get inline because I know of a few that are waiting for one. |
Amazing work whitecamaross and great input from all. Hopefully this forum continues into 2018...
Whitecamaross - Last summer you mentioned plans to purchase Simaudio's 870A. Did you get a chance to do some comparisons with it, and, if so, how did that amp compare overall to others? I see you enjoyed the 740P at its price point... |
I don’t really venture with integrated pieces. However, it is really a great sounding piece and it’s not too much either. |
Outstanding! whitecamaross
good to read that you have found your reference gear.
I must inquire, did you find an Integrated amp that bested the ML No. 585?
Happy Listening!
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Having owned the 452 twice, that amp is dated and needs to be revamped. If you heard the luxman 900u, I can assure you that you would unload your McIntosh 452 within 10 seconds of listening to it. I see McIntosh amps in the same league as the Brystons, Classe, etc.
Pass labs, simaudio, Hegel are above those and if you want to elevate even further then you go for luxman, boulders, etc. The reason why I recommended the 585 is because you’ll kill 3 birds with one stone by buying it and yes it sounds really amazing. You’d need a C1100, and an awesome dac plus your 452 to best it but then you’re talking about how much money ? 3 times the money ? Far greater money.
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I would much rather have the MC452 over any Levinson amp, especially the 585. The C1100 is a great preamp and it's fully balanced as well.
sell your mc452 and buy a mark levinson 585 integrated and you're
done...however, If you are a fan of the mcintosh look then buy a
mcintosh c1100 preamp. Everything that mcintosh has in terms of
preampfification is subpar when compared to other offerings.
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sell your mc452 and buy a mark levinson 585 integrated and you're done...however, If you are a fan of the mcintosh look then buy a mcintosh c1100 preamp. Everything that mcintosh has in terms of preampfification is subpar when compared to other offerings.
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Any preamps that match well with MC452 that you have heard the combo?
c52 with mine. |
To add to the car analogy, I just traded my 2010 997 Carrera for 2018 Chevy Tahoe Z71 Black Edition. Went to couple of ski trips with it and I am very happy with it. What is wrong with me? I am sure things will change when the summer rolls in. I believe the best solution is to have both, for different purposes. Same with the amplifiers..
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Hello
de PORTUGAL
Happy New Year 2018 ! whitecamaross
Happy New 2018 to all.
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Ok guys, after a few days of constant listening and going back and forth, I feel pretty good about my verdict. I’ve heard countless songs, matched volume levels, etc. I have spent lots of long nights and plugged and unplugged cables like you can’t imagine. I’ve tested many combinations this year; from pass labs set ups (xp30/350.8, xa200.5), Hegel h30, audio research ref 6/gs150, mark Levinson no52/536 Monos) and many others that don’t come to me right now. I’ve spent a ridiculous amount of money all because I want to bring you all my personal journey and my opinions with things that I’ve actually owned and compared in my listening area. All because of my desire to discover the next best thing.
With that said, there’s no doubt in my mind that my top pick for 2017 is the Belcanto black system.
It wins my top award for this year because it gets the job done the right away. It’s simple to use, zero issues, no drama, it’s really easy to pick it as anyone’s reference system. This could be the standard when trying to mix and match solid state pieces.
The luxman gets really close in many ways but it still lacks those extra ounces of depth and width that I the Belcanto has.
Again, if you are not in this hobby to do what I have been doing for the past few years and just want something that sounds outstanding from the get go, this IS THE SYSTEM FOR YOU.
My 2018 reference set up is officially the Belcanto black system. Going forward in 2018 I will keep trying solid state pieces and see how close they get to this Belcanto. Will any of my future set ups surpass it ? Tie it ? Stay tuned... 2018 will answer many questions :) |
Wow appreciate your opinion! I will def take your advice and get the processor just will probably get a pre-amp later down the line. Also for speakers I am using the Golden Ear Triton Reference.
Any preamps that match well with MC452 that you have heard the combo? @whitecamaross
Once again thank you! |
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Happy New Year! whitecamaross |
I was amazed two nights ago with so much detail to be honest. Right now, today, I am 55% sure I’ll keep the black system and 45% that I’ll keep the luxman.
One thing I did notice was that I felt like the black system swallows my mind and ears with so much sound. I also found myself transporting myself to different places while I heard it. Very weird but I did experience that.
I would like to test cabling with it too. |
WhiteCamaroSS, knowing Jon Stronczer and his past achievements, and knowing a little bit about Black System internals, I venture to say that right now your demo Black is still very far from delivering its true potential. If you have the patience to let it grind along for a few weeks to normalize its behavior -- white or pink noise is just fine for the purpose, you might be amazed at what it is capable of.
Regards, G. |
Just had the wife sit down and listen to 3 different songs on both systems and she said the Belcanto does beat the luxman but it’s not a slam dunk. That’s also how I feel FYI. |
Update:
i started to listen to the luxman with the LOUDNESS button engaged and now things are getting more interesting. It’s certainly much closer in terms of sound quality and I will give the luxman a slight edge with the loudness engaged. Things get bigger and more pronounced. |
The mx160 is the best processor under 20k retail. Only the datasat 20 kills it. It’s awesoke as a preamp as well but no it won’t best or equal a preamp like an audio research ref 6, or luxman, simaudio, and others.
Lastly, if you don’t have speakers that can let you hear the difference then it won’t matter. |
@whitecamaross I noticed in a previous post you had the McIntosh MX160. What were your thoughts a processor/preamp? Music and movies? |
I currently have the MC452 and use my space as both home theater and two channel audio. Im trying to see whether the MX160 can suffice or will I need a seperate preamp for two channel audio.
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Then perhaps what I hated about the salons was that they are too much of a pain in regards to bass. They are too picky about the room I suppose but let’s be honest here, who has an amazing room here ? Maybe 5% ? The rest of us have to deal with decent rooms so you have to find a speaker that simply wows you in your room. We can’t build a whole new room
to make speakers sound perfect so we bring speakers that sound great given your listening area. For me the salons didn’t have the same HUGE soundstage of the platinums. They didn’t have the same massive slam either. They only had great detail and a big sweet spot but I don’t recall anything else about them that was spectacular. |
+1 on most interesting thread. |
whitecameross, Please consider the AQUA La Scala II or Formula, and Denafrips Terminator in your DAC search. |
Lots of interesting stuff here.
Good report on the Bel Canto black....expect it will soar in performance with additional time......break-in on these Class D modules is no joke.
Going back a bit to your request for a DAC to try....I suggest a Mytek Manhattan II.....absolutely outstanding as a DAC and Pre also.
Regarding the Salon 2 comments, if they sounded broken, I would suggest that they likely were broken!
I have Salon2's so am obviously biased, but think I can weigh in here as I have heard ricred1's properly set up PL 500's for an extended listen on two occasions.
The 500's sound great...they have a VERY VERY big sound which I think would be hard to duplicate. They are also very smooth with no listening fatigue.
That said, properly setup Salon2's are absolutely in the same league....they lack the "huge" effect you get the with the PL500's but also bring other things to the table like tremendous detail, realism, articulation, and imaging. And bass? Loads. Bass response actually = room acoustics.....I am sure any loudspeaker made can have the bass sucked out of it due to sub-optimum room acoustics.
My $0.02....only worth the time it took me to type.
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How is the McIntosh MX160 in two channel application? @whit
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Looking forward to this mark. I want to hear this full throttle.
Stsrgazer: I love the platinum 500s. They are an incredible speaker leaving me with zero desire to try anything else anytime soon. |
Hi Whitecamaross, your thread is one of the most interesting in HiFi forums I have ever read. We have one thing in common, you use the Monitor Audio 500 and I use the humble Monitor Audio BX1. Alot of HiFi snobs in UK snub the Monitor Audio brand so it only makes it extra special that you choose it above all other speakers. I hope you stick with your new speakers and the Black system for a while so you can rest and enjoy the music!
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The upgrade you mentioned is the ASC2 front end. It is a sonic improvement over ASC1. Also, the ASC2 adds, among other things, an Ethernet connection, which requires a hard wire connection into your LAN. This allows you to play MQA from Tidal using Roon or Bel Canto’s SEEK app on you iPad or iPhone. You ain’t heard nothing yet.
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Excellent point. That is the sad point about the black system so yes you need to buy it right from the get go.
also, the black system is Belcantos baby and dealers get terminated if they get caught doing deep discounts. If you are looking to buy a used combo then that will be difficult as well because as I said, there are only 26 black systems in the entire country. I am the only one with a black system in Florida.
Also, Belcanto told me their black system won’t be ever abandoned by them. It will be upgraded as new things come out. For example, the new upgrade for the preamp is 5,000 dollars. This will give you mqa, ability to stream from your iPad, subwoofer output and a few other inputs. It will make it fully compatible with all formats. That’s a nice charge |
The sad thing is...as you alluded to before...you will probably lose 20K on the Bel Canto if you ever decide to ditch it...unless you got a demo at a good price or a great deal from a dealer you do a lot of business with. Thats going to be a Major factor for those not rolling in dough. Worse case scenario one would only lose 5K ditching the Luxman pair most likely |
Just got done listening to the luxman for 5 min and here’s what I’m hearing after getting acquainted with the black systems sound signature:
luxman: crazy smoothness and detail. Nice big sound stage. Never fatiguing, never boring, but it loses on instrument separation and sound. It feels as if the black system articulated the music just a tad better. Think of it as the way some people enunciate words Better than others. The Belcanto enunciates better with more background detail. However, I still believe the luxman set up can close the gap if you used a world class dac with it. Things could get extremely close at that point.
I love the way this black system has me looking at the ceiling, side hallway, and in all directions and me thinking it’s my wife walking upstairs or in the kitchen when in reality it’s the system making me hear things all over the room.
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Very nice... prepare your wallet because you won’t want to let go of it. |
Out of curiosity I'm looking into getting a home auditions of the Black System. |
I wish there was a way to post pictures here.
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