Whitecamaross
i liked the car analogy. and let's not forget your purpose to all this: find what is musically satisfying to your ears. NOT to do everything in your power to make the boulder amp/brand fit into your system.
i will use a car analogy myself: a ford compact with all the fancy gadgets..or a stripped down camaro ( i think i can guess which one you would take--lol)
in other words, why the hell do i have to upgrade all these peripherals i.e.;cables,power conditioners and whatever else to compensate for an unsatisfactory piece of gear !!!
an amp should most be persuaded by a superior preamp and superior source. you have that,for sure. the result is then translated thru your speakers of choice.
imho, i believe that you have already crossed the path many times of having a great amp preamp and so forth.
and at this point ,with your favorite gear plugged in, it is time to create you"signature" sound.
how? revisit square one! SPEAKERS.
mike
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So i just spoke to a boulder deal who swears my issue with the 2060 is because the 2060 and the 1060 are no good. He swears the 2050 monos is where boulder begins to show you what they can do in terms of sound quality. He swears if i buy the boulder 2050 and 2010 combo that i am not going to need anything else. Of course, i told him that i currently have a sour taste in my mouth with the boulder brand and its musical presentation and so i am not going to just go out there and buy a 2050 & 2010 when i am not even liking what i am hearing. Typically, people MOVE UP the ladder within the same brand when they are blown away and not disappointed. Meaning, if you own a mercedes c230 and love it, you want to eventually move to the s550 because you love the brand, but if you hate the c230 because you have issues with it, etc then you are probably not going to go to another model. However, with cars it is different because you can actually test drive the other model you are considering.
i told him that the amp sounds lifeless and sterile. It almost feels like the amp is playing music inside a morgue rather than in a listening room. It feels so out of place when compared to my other amps. What i have noticed is that current AND former boulder dealers do have a strong passion for the brand.
They also told me that boulder shows you what you have in your front end and my question to them is " damn it, how much do i have to spend to make boulder sound better than my cheap amplifiers ? $40,000 dollars? " i mean that would be ridiculous to spend that kind of money in order to best a simaudio, or a luxman amp. Now he has me thinking about changing cabling, sources, yada yada yada and my thing is that WHY does so much need to change in order to just improve on what my more ’affordable" amps are doing already? It is not like i am trying to best 100k dollar amplifiers with the boulder amps. That is what is mind boggling to me. Why do i have to change cables, sources, this and that ONLY to make this boulder amp beat a cheap simaudio or luxman amp? are they kidding? |
Whitecamaross,
Your comment regarding the pairing of Classé amps with B&W speakers exactly reflects my own experience with both brands.
I've owned the CA-2300 and work daily with the D3 series speakers and feel the same.
I'm another lurker who reads your comments with interest. Thank you for sharing.
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Hello WhiteCamaroSS, I have not performed any comparative analysis on the Boulder 2010.... I have only heard it a few time in the Denver dealer setting, driving a couple different amps.
I have not had it in my own system. What I can say is that at least driving the Rowland M312, 2010 did not make me wish we were using a different preamp.
I am not a strong fan of Pass Labs, but have instead a lot of respect for the musicality of Luxman.
But there are a number of fabulous preamplifiers on the market...
For example, the Jeff Rowland Corus used in combination with the Rowland PSU ultra-capacitor-based external full chassis power supply, as well as the Solution preamp.... And the Burmester pres... Sorry, I do not remember the Solution and Burmester models.
Saluti, G.
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Guido,
i have a gut feeling the 2010 preamp is amazing. I actually had the same feeling about the preamp too and I haven’t heard it. I wonder how much better it is than the pass labs xp30 or luxman?
I have a funny feeling that the preamp is the special piece too.... I’ve always wanted a game changing solid state preamp |
Bass control the Boulder 2060 certainly has.... To the point of delivering a sterile bass, unfortunately *Sighs!*
G.
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Hi WhiteCamaroSS,
I do not know either if the Boulder 2010 will yield a more desirable result than your current stable of preamps....
On the other hand, my impression of the 2010 at the time of my auditions was that the Boulder pre was certainly a top notch preamplifier.... Feeding into the Rowland M312, and that into the Vienna Die Muzik, I was hearing rather spectacular music..... It was rather the Boulder amps for which I continued to hold severe reservations.
At the time of that audition, I did own a Rowland M312 (500W, 45A peak current)... Since then, I upgraded to M625 stereo (V1), M725 monos (V1), and for the last few years, I have adopted the M925 monos, which are quite spectacular.
I have also had the Vienna Die Muzik in my system for several years.... And these guys won’t go anywhere else any time soon... At least for my musical preferences, the are long time keepers.
Saluti, Guido |
I left my boulder amp on for weeks. Things got better but they still don’t impress me. I’m most likely not willing to make the huge investment on a boulder preamp. So far this amp has not shown me anything but perhaps bass control. That’s it. |
How the hell can a 200 watt amp sound bigger and fuller than a 600 watt
class a amp ? Mind you, I’ve used 3 sets of speakers and 2 different
preamps with this boulder amp. You’d think things would be different at
some point but the truth is that it doesn’t get better.
Probably not allowing enough time for them to warmup / settle? Friend with Boulder finds takes long long warm up so leave on 24/7. From experience, takes days and sometime weeks after moving components (including cables) in and out of a system to settle. I evaluate components by living with them for months. IMO you never experience optimal capabilities by quick a/b constantly moving them around. Happy Listening and Keep ME Posted!!!!! |
Thanks Guido. Look I’m not saying that I know what this boulder amp can do unless I bring the matching preamp. However, I’m not sure anymore if the pream will change things to be better sounding. I really don’t think it will save things for me. Boulder seems to be built incredible but I don’t know why they don’t make them less clinical. How the hell can a 200 watt amp sound bigger and fuller than a 600 watt class a amp ? Mind you, I’ve used 3 sets of speakers and 2 different preamps with this boulder amp. You’d think things would be different at some point but the truth is that it doesn’t get better.
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"the boulder 2060 just sounds lifeless, clinical, analytical and it is probably in need of either its matching preamp or just
a pair of Rockport speakers"
Whitecamaross, you just about nailed it... Except for things markedly improving when 2060 is fed through a boulder pre!
A few years ago, at RMAF, I had the opportunity of listening to a system consisting of Boulder CDp, Boulder 2010, and Boulder 2060 feeding into a pair of Vienna Die Muzik. The audience was about 10 people... The session lasted some 3 hours.
We switched back and forth between the Boulder 2060 and the Rowland M312 stereo amp. System remained invariant throughout, except for the amps.
We listen from a large selection of classical, jazz, rock, and modern.
Unfortunately for the boulder, just about everyone concurred that the Boulder sounded blanched, sterile, cold uninvolving, lacking harmonic exposure, authority, transient linearity, not to talk about staging, imaging, and overall macro/micro detail compared to the ROwland M312... Which at that time costed some 25% of the 2060.
Couple years after that we tried the same using the Boulder 3000 series amp contrasted by M312.. Unfortunately, results were very similar... A "lunch" was "eaten"... but it was the M312 doing the feeding, not the Boulder amps.
Thus, I am not faintly surprised that SimAudio and Luxman are outperforming the Boulder behemoth.
Regards, G.
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Classe is decent but too warm sounding. Simaudio is more detailed. Haven’t you noticed that B&w was always showcased with Classe ? That’s because it helped with the brightness of the speakers.
I will say the salons and simaudio amp have insane synergy. It’s like cheese and wine. I could easily sit here and be happy with those 2 together and just find more preamps.
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whitecamaross,
Along with the Plinius Odeon and Bat v2 6200, the Classe 5200/5300 is also on my short list to maybe replace my Simaudio Titan someday. I already know how much you love the Odeon, but would you say that it’s THAT much better than the Classe?
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whitecamaross
I enjoy reading about your numerous auditions, reviews and shoot-outs. Keep us the excellent work. I know that you have been having fun as well. The Boulder is best served (no pun) w/ a matching Boulder. This is one of the few Audio products where mix/match will not jive well. Happy Listening! |
hi guys,
so in an effort to keep things more even and without any sort of inclination to any particular brand, i had 2 friends come out last night to listen to 3 different set ups which were:
1. luxman combo
2. audio research ref 6/ simaudio
3. audio research ref6/ boulder
what i did was to have each person listen to 2 songs of their choice through tidal with each setup, BUT it was a blind folded test. They had to step out of the room while i switched each set up so they would have zero idea what was playing. i covered all of the equipment with towels so nobody would know what was playing. That said, here is what each person chose after it was all said and done:
Friend #1:
1st place - Luxman
2nd place - audio research ref 6 / simaudio
3rd place - boulder/ audio research
Friend # 2:
1st place - audio research ref 6/ simaduio
2nd place - luxman
3rd place - boulder / audio research ref 6
Me:
1st place - audio research ref 6/ simaudio (wins by a hair)
2nd place - luxman (very close race for 1st)
3rd place - boulder/ audio research ref 6
Anyhow, we all agreed that the boulder 2060 just sounds lifeless, clinical, analytical and it is probably in need of either its matching preamp or just a pair of Rockport speakers which we all know has synergy with it.
That being said, that was last night. Tonight i am listening to the simaudio, but i am using the ref 6 and luxman 900u preamp and i am getting a preliminary impression that the luxman preamp with simaudio amp might be better than last night’s winner (ref6/simaudio combo). i am trying different songs and at times i feel the luxman pre/simaudio outshines the ref6/simaudio but as i change songs then i feel the other way around. it is indeed one hell of a hard exercise to say the least. |
@whitecamaross I’d always wondered why you never reviewed the 655se. I have my answer now. That’s a shame because every reviewer who’s had it has loved it. Even it’s baby brother the multi-channel VK-6200 is an incredibly good 2 channel performer. 👍
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I was offered a bat 600se and 655se. I passed on both because the market for those amps is very shaky and unstable just like pass labs. For instance, a luxman 900u amp which is 15k and the pass labs 350.8 which is worth 14k as well don’t have the same used market value. The luxman is worth about 2500 dollars more than the 350.8 on the used market. |
@btw22 I think you’d do well to listen to one the next chance you get. The BAT is absolutely superb in 2 channel. It’s so good my dealer uses them in a monoblock array for his 2 channel music system. The BAT uses a separate toroid for each channel so it’s a true monoblock design. The snap and dynamics of this amp is amazing, yet it is also incredibly delicate and detailed.
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@chazzzy007,
That Bat was also the other amp I wanted to audition but was hard to find. So hard auditioning these amps because they’re so big and heavy. Auditioning in dealer showrooms are never the same as having them at home with your system.
Between the 3, I ended up with the Sim because of a dealer recommendation. He’s out of state but I really trusted him and I love the amp. Powerful, neutral and great synergy with my Dali Euphonias. Ive always had the Bat and the Plinius in the back of my mind though, especially now that the Titan is over 15 yrs old. 2CH is as much a priority as HT, so I want an amp that does both well. |
@btw22 I just recently upgraded my NAD M27 and the Plinius was one of the amps on my short list. It was basically impossible to find one to audition though. I bought the BAT VK-6200 which though it has a different presentation than the Plinius, I think is it’s equal. Very powerful, dynamic and detailed, with an open, natural, just to the warm side of neutral presentation. It’s control of deep Bass is sublime. I’m quite surprised that @whitecamaross has never auditioned it along with it’s big brother the 655se though I think that neither is quite warm sounding enough for his tastes.
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I’ve never owned the Titan but I do like simaudio stuff. I know the Odeon is the best multichannel amp I’ve owned. |
I’ve had the Simaudio Titan for many, many years now, which I love, but would love to audition the Plinius Odeon just to hear the difference. Hard to get a hold of one since they’re no longer in production. Not to mention it’s about 180 lbs for the 5ch I think. |
Boulder 2010 so we can all get a sense of what the fullest expression of the Boulder House sound was meant to be. |
Ok so I may end up playing with 3 separate preamps and amps all at once. You guys are killing me here :)
i am now leaning heavily towards the boulder 2010 rather than the ref10.
If that 2010 doesn’t wow me given the price, I’ll probably sell the boulder combo and revisit the Belcanto black system. |
I have several opinions from different friends of course who claim the ref 10 is probably superior in every way simply because it is a newer design.
Actually, the Ref 6 is the newer design. But that means nothing. The Ref 6 borrows far more from the Ref 10 than the LS28 borrows from the Ref 6. Besides tonal density, you are going to lose some soundstage width and depth, and this is just my educated guess, but imo the Ref 6 to some degree either accentuates or extrapolates a greater sense of soundstage from the input signal. I hope you get the Boulder and tell us for yourself. ARC built it's reputation on it's preamps and Boulder is not known for it's preamps. I look forward to your impressions. |
@whitecamaross
I like ARC. But I think your better bet is to get the Boulder and try for as much synergy as possible. I’ve heard the Ref 10 but not compared it to the Ref 6.
BTW, I've read this entire thread and am excited when new posts are available. I'm sure there are many just like me. |
hi guys, yes i agree so far with your feedback. i love my reference 6 but i am very curious about the boulder 2010 because i want to really hear how the pair sounds with my salon 2s. i still have this last itch to hear both components together to find out what they are capable of. I am very curious about the ref 10 though, but given that there are not many 2010 preamps out there, i guess i could justify this opportunity to pull the trigger and see what happens. I have several opinions from different friends of course who claim the ref 10 is probably superior in every way simply because it is a newer design. |
Boulder 2010 for the matching synergy!
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If the description of the Ref 10 is accurate from the What's Best audio forum, then I would say the boulder 2010 is definitely the one to go with! Plus, you'll always be curious, if you don't :-)
Dave
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The 2010 was designed to pair with the 2060. i would not be able to part with the amp until I found out what the designers intended their equipment to sound like. Just my $.02 |
If you go to the What’s Best audio forum and go to the Audio Research forum, you will find a great thread on the audible differences between the Ref 6 and Ref 10. The quick answer is that one was not clearly better than the other and instead, primarily of different character, with the Ref 10 sounding more refined, the Ref 6 sounding more "vibrant and ballsy", the Ref 10 better for classical, the Ref 6 better for rock. I have no experience with Boulder gear, and you and I have completely different tastes in loudspeakers, so I won’t comment further, except to say that I don’t mind venturing a guess that you will lose what I refer to as "tonal density" and maybe gain some transients speed and low end extension with the Boulder pre.
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decisions decisions... so i have access to a boulder 2010 preamp and a audio research reference 10 preamp. I can only get one at this time, can anyone give me their input as which one i should get? something tells me to get the boulder to see the synergy with the boulder 2060 and another thing tells me the audio research 10 could be a game changer.
Ok, give me your input guys |
quit saying HAPPY LISTENING !!!! |
Thank you guys for all the humble comments. I appreciate all the feedback you all give me and it’s a pleasure to share my personal journey. This thread has been going for a long time and it’s incredible the amount of people that reach out to me because of it.
I wish I did have a second set of ears to confirm my findings.
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I believe that all of the audiophiles here would want to live in close proxy to
whitecamaross, myself included.
Happy Listening!
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Whitecamaross
Hello
I'm still here in Portugal, reading your experiences
I have a Mark Levinsion 335 and a pre ML 38S
an Esoteric SA10 CD
I have one more Pioneer A300R Precision (Ton Evans)
and I just got a great Yamaha A-S1100, great even ...
I would like to be your neighbor to do auditions together
but unfortunately I am in Portugal, a country and a poor people, but very noble
This translation was the best you can find
Happy Listening!
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whitecamaross
do you like the Simaudio 650d better than the GamuT cd player?
Happy Listening!
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Mike,
i use lumin s1, simaudio 650d CD player. |
whitecamaross
i have followed the entire thread, but i can't recall what sources you use. i.e. CD player and / or analog front end, streamer /dac etc..
what is your main listening source? brand/model
thanks
mike |
Congrats on your sale. ...good luck moving forward. ..excited to see this through with you.
mike |
Ok guys, my monitor audios pl500s have been sold to a fellow audiophile friend of mine who’s been following my journey for sometime. He’s coming from Sonus Faber olímpica 3s which I’ve also owned. These speakers will totally elevate his listening experience to another level hands down. He also owns the luxman 900u combo which I know has insane synergy with the platinums.
Going forward, all my listening sessions will be with the revel salon 2s until I buy the neoliths. I’ll be sad to see my platinums leave my home but they will certainly sing much better in his room because his room is much larger than mine which will allow these speakers to sound even better than they did with me.
BEST SPEAKER I HAVE OWNED HANDS DOWN |
I don’t have the 740p anymore but I did biamp the platinums yesterday using the luxman on the highs and the simaudio on the lows and the platinums really improved drastically from this experiment. More detail and depth.
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whitecamaross,
Do you still have the Sim 740p to try with the 860a? Curious to know how that pair sounds with your Salon 2's or the PL 500's.
That combo with a really good single malt scotch whiskey is all you need! |
Hello WhiteCamaross, if you will be starting with speakers of the caliber of the Neoliths in your new home, you might consider investing in a generous number of dedicated 20A AC lines... 1 for each electrostatic speaker, one for each monoblock and 3 to 4 for various line-level devices. Furthermore, if you ever consider testing Boulder 3000 series, or similar amps, you might want to install a couple of 30A dedicated lines.
BTW, some extremophiles also upgrade in-wall wiring.... Furutech and Cardas wiring come to mind.
Saluti, G.
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No plans to get the boulder preamp or a second luxman amp at this time. I want to focus on selling my platinums and any other pieces that will get me to the neoliths. |
Whitecamaross--are you going to add a second Luxman amp at some point? |
Thanks! for the update - whitecamaross
keep auditioning and writing. Did the Boulder pre-amp arrive? Happy Listening! |
Thanks for the those tips. I’ll keep them in mind.
Sooooo the simaudio 860a/ref 6 have been playing for the last 2 hours. Talk about synergy here guys. the soundstage is massive with those 2 components. I had forgotten how great simaudio amps are. I can honestly say that these two sound incredible and really could see myself happy at this point. Zero harshness, big sound, smooth, great overall musicality that makes you want to tap your feet. My audio research ref 6 has sounded the best with this simaudio amp. The synergy is incredible.
the only two components that can rival
the simaudio/ref6 is the luxman combo. |
Revel salon 2’s absolutely need to be positioned properly. If you don’t take time to get this right, don’t even bother with them. But when you do, man, they are incredible. Let me give you a tip- do not put them close to the front wall. My front baffle is 5 feet from the front wall with a well treated front wall/corners, but honestly mine would be better even further out if my room aesthetics and ergonomics didn’t limit me. The downward firing port with its 360 degree dispersion makes it really prone to speaker boundary interference. The obvious symptom is weak bass as you mentioned, but it’s more than that. Close to the wall they just don’t image well, the soundstage will be shallow, and they just won’t snap into focus. More specific than just getting them out from the front wall, golden mean proportions in placement and listener position heavily apply to this speaker. Yeah, they’re high maintenance, but worth it if you can get the placement right. |
Simaudio 860a will be put to the test tonight. I just turned it on and will leave it on for about 3 hours before I listen to it. This amp needs to be on 3 days straight to really come to life so tonight is just a preliminary hearing. I’ll use salons and The platinum 500s. I suspect the simaudio will have amazing synergy with the pl500s and it won’t be able to make the salons sing.
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