My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
Ladies & Gentlemen, i have been listening to the ref10 with hegel h30s in mono mode for the last 5 hours. i was working away on my laptop and let the music play and play and then finally closed the laptop and began to listen critically. i heard at approximately 87-92db depending on the song. I heard music non stop and had zero fatigue. Soundstage was large and in charge with plenty of detail, mids, highs, bass, EVERYTHING. I wanted to just saturate my hearing with music through the ref10/hegels so that i can then switch to the black system and so when i did switch... The soundstage sounds smaller, less massive wall to wall sound and this is just simply heartbreaking because i have been praising this set up for a long time now. I love it top to bottom, but i can’t deny the ridiculous current and HUGE power on tap from the hegels. Today is a sad day for me because my ears allowed me to just hear the change in sound without me trying to. It felt as if i instantly heard my walls close in when i went to play the black system. This has been an interesting lesson for me. My gut feeling was that i needed more horsepower to produce the huge voltage that these class d amps were putting out. The reason why the Wilsons were sounding huge and big was because the black system’s monos have massive current/voltage and it took more than 1,000 watts per channel from a solid state amp to give me all the current and voltage to best the black system's huge soundstage. What an interesting finding huh? But do you see WHY we are all in love with this hobby? WHY we go through countless hours of lifting back-breaking amplifiers? i had pass labs 350.8, simaudio 860a, hegel h30 in stereo mode and they all lost against the black system. None of them could put up the huge soundstage of the black system. They all got their a$$ handed to them. That said, the hegel h30s are INSANE with insane drive, dynamics, slam and they don't even run hot at all. I also find them more transparent than many amps i have owned in the past which includes pass labs. Remember, pass labs is tuned to sound more or less like tubes so it will impose its sound everywhere. That is not the case with Hegel. In the end, i can honestly say i have truly enjoyed every single minute of the black system’s transparency and detail with all its glory and incredible presentation. I expect class D to eventually surpass solid state pieces because let me tell you that the gap is narrower than ever. I am predicting that class d will eventually close the gap and surpass good old class ab components. It is nature, it is part of the evolution of technology. We have to learn to embrace new things as long as they are indeed better than what is already in place. For now, my reference 2 channel becomes the follow: ARC REF10 HEGEL H30/MONOBLOCKS PS: Total price is $70k retail to best the $55k Black System. That is a huge praise to that class d system :) If you have $55k to spend on a front end, don’t even try to find something else better than the black system. It does not exist. |
Guys, i am still trying solid state but that’s only because the 250se go for over 15k on the used market. I liked my gs150 but I’m not sure the 250se is THAT MUCH BETTER than the gs150. I do want to try the ref250s but I will be honest, It is hard as nails to sell audio research amps. I mean, it has to be the perfect timing and you happen to be lucky someone was looking for it but other than that, it’s just too hard. Thst said, I’m now contemplating the bryston 28b3s Monos, but what’s stopping me is not knowing if they would actually best my h30s in mono mode ? I mean I’d be shocked if the Bryston kill my hegel h30s. |
Matt, Please consider calling Bill Parish at GTT and see about getting a loaner Audionet pre/power combo to audition. You are searching for the very best and reviewer Greg Weaver can't praise the gear enough, he's using Audionet for his VSA Aktive 55s and will be using the Audionet pair on the VSA Ultra 9s when they get to his home. Worth a call,
908.850.3092. |
I'm not surprised at your wife's finding. However, I know probable isn't in your price range, but, if you haven't heard the REF 10 with REF 250 SE amps, you really haven't heard the system that Audio Research intended to be paired together. I've heard many high end systems and they all were wonderful. However, the first time in almost 4 decades in this hobby I have heard a system completely disappear was when I hear the REF 10, REF 250 SE combo with Vandersteen 7 speakers. Oh my. I have heard the REF 10, REF 250 SE at another store (Stereo Design) with Wilson top of the line speakers and for the first time, I loved the Wilson speakers. Wow. Switch out the REF 250 SE and use the top of the line Boulder amp and although the Boulder was great, we all still preferred the REF 250 SE. It's too bad you can't borrow a pair instead of the constant purchases. I understand the purchase/resale issues for you. However, a used pair of REF 250 SE would enable you to recover your cost if you decided to sell them. Which I don't believe you will. You really like the REF 10? I'm telling you the REF 10/REF 250 SE is really magic. But, continue rolling on. I'm really enjoying this journey your are taking for many of us. enjoy |
Regarding low listening levels.....it is my impression that the speakers are vastly more important than the amp. I’m not sure I follow the line of thinking that the amp will make a big difference. I think you would be very happy with the 625 S2 but if new it would need 500-1000 hours to sound best, so this may not be the amp for you. I bet the Gryphon Colosseum would play at with the very finest level of anything out there. |
My only concern with the XA 25 will be when you want to turn it up. It might just be the best sounding amp from Nelson, working within it’s limitations. I, too, thought it was the XA 25, but not as sure as grey9hound was. I wasn’t sure the amp was powerful enough for your listening habits. It would certainly be for me, with my 104db Lascalas. I have been saving for one actually. I will buy yours 2nd hand, as I am calling 1st dibs. lol |
Its funny , because i was seriously considering it and reading reviews for it a few days before you mentioned that you were going to try a fairly low powered amp from a well known manufacturer at just under $5k , that basically people are raving about . I had a gut feeling that it was indeed the XA-25. I can't wait to hear your thoughts on it.. |
Yes that’s right. The black system has all those attributes and contains even more. Of course, I’m not going to lie to anyone. I am indeed trying to see if I can top it by using my ref10 with different amps. So far I’ve been unable to do so. I will be getting the pass labs xa25 in about 3-4 weeks since it’s being built right now. My goal will be to bring an amp that’s musical at low volumes and thats WHY I chose the xa25. I know it won’t compete with the hegels at full throttle but on paper it should beat the hegels at low volumes. If I can bring a dog fight to the black system at low volumes (<90db) and NOT be at above the 55k retail price tag then I’ve won the battle. What I’m trying to accomplish is to put together an analog set up that can best the black system for less than 55k. The ref 10 is 30k and the lumin 9500. That’s 39,500. That leaves me with about 15,000 dollars (retail price) for an amp. Typically amps that retail for 15k sell used for about 8-9500 dollars depending on the brand. See essentially I’m looking for an amp that sells for 9500 dollars MAX. |
@whitecamaross If a system synergy, such as the black system, can allow you to really relax ( even for a short while ), or allow you to tap your toes ( both relaxing and toe tapping, depending on the recorded musical performance being played at the time ), that is when I feel you have reached audio nirvana. However, the point bill_k brought up is a real one, and even during our listening, our minds tell us " there is more to be had ". |
Mrdecibel, my wife would I agree with you that I can’t relax lol. However, she’s worse than I am ! anyhow, there are so many factors that can contribute to the black systems outstanding synergy and presentation. It’s really amazing in many ways to the point that I’m afraid of letting go of it and never hear anything like it again. See, the cool thing is that there’s no need to turn it on before and wait 90 min for it to sound best. It’s always ready to sound amazing and without any hiccups or issues. Zero maintenance of any kind and I can’t think of any speaker that won’t benefit from it’s huge presentation. I heard it with my platinums and it was like wow and I still feel the same way with my Wilsons. |
Admittedly it's the nature of most audiophiles (myself included) to always wonder what could possibly be improved in our systems. No matter what level we're at there is almost always something better out there and it's our mission to find it. There's no end to the madness, but for many of us that's all part of the adventure that makes it so much fun! |
@whitecamaross Could it be the Black system is so neutral, so colorless, that you are hearing deficiencies in the recordings via the mqa files. Although not sterile or harsh, as you say, just accurate, the engineering ( mic to close or too far from the performer, the mixing, the splicing / editing / overdubbing, improper gain somewhere in the mastering chain, etc. ), might not be perfect, and this might be what you are responding to. Maybe ? Or, it is so enjoyable, it relaxes you, and let's face it whitecamaross, it is hard for you to relax. No judgement, just an observation, and I could be wrong on both counts.. Always, MrD. |
Well guys, i just changed a couple of resistors on the wilsons and put back the stock values which flatten the mids. i thought they were a tad shouty, but i found out it was because the previous owner had changed the resistors with the ones that boost up the mids by 1db. That said, as i seat here listening RIGHT NOW, RIGHT THIS SECOND AT 83 DB, i could be totally happy keeping the black system and selling everything else i own, but as you all know tomorrow i will try to give the hegels a shot again and see what happens. |
@bill_k Apologies if I came across as harsh. Class D was smooth, and overall pleasant. When it came to critical listening though it left me wanting more and I couldn't quite put my finger on it except that I knew something was missing. Subtle harmonics, low level detail and absolute control of my speakers especially in the Bass. It got 85 or 90 percent right, but that last 15'ish percent is what really makes music come alive and makes you want to close your eyes and listen for hours. |
Ok guys, i did a little more listening just now and i have been playing the hegels for about 90 min now. They should be good in terms of sound. i listened to a few mqa files and then went back to the black system. I immediately dialed it in to be about the same loudness which is 88db more or less and i find the black system a bit smoother with a huge soundstage width. That said, here is what i am slowly realizing which i had not really put it into words before: The ref10 with hegel monos sounds really amazing, but the black system outshines. However, it feels as if the black systems gives you SO MUCH OF EVERYTHING AT ONCE that you end up getting overloaded with so much information and then you end up getting fatigued, but not of harshness or brightness. NOT AT ALL. It is more of the massive amount of detail and soundstage that just makes your ears want to hear less and less of it. Think of it like this: You have a beer that is smooth and keeps you buzzed pretty nicely as long as you pace yourself with it. You can drink it for hours and your buzz is perfect without any feeing of sleepiness or tiredness,etc. You feel social and wanting to talk and have a fun time with it. Then next week you drink a different beer that is stronger and tastes so yummy and you just want to chug it and quench your thirst with it because the flavor is wow. Then it hits you hard, you now have your buzz, but you are starting to get tired, sleepy, wanting to go to bed and crash... That is how you feel with the black system. It hits you so hard and so good but it has a side effect which is that it knocks you out after a while. Does this make sense? You are pretty much having to choose what you want. Do you want the best 30-60 minutes you have ever heard? then the black system is your ticket. Do you want long hours of good listening, but not as pure as the 30-60 minutes above? then the ref10/hegel is your ticket. This is pretty much what i am realizing that too much of a good thing such as the belcanto black is also not good. With this said, i found out from the person who i bought the sashas from that he switched the resistors in order to give them a midrange gain so i need to put back the resistors that will bring the mids back and make them less forward and then see what happens. Like i said, i still have alot more i want to do to the wilsons such was playing with the resistors, getting transparent cabling which is what was recommended to me and play with the toe in. |
Stay away from the NADs and Class D. I had the M27 for 2 years. It was smooth, reasonably detailed, and threw a wide soundstage but had no life. Get yourself a BAT 655se and be done with it. Or get a 4 channel VK-6200 and bi -amp it (400 watts into 8 ohms and 800 into 4 ohms) just to get a taste of the sublime BAT sound before you invest in a 655se. You need great current delivery and the BATs have that as well as detail, soundstaging , dynamics and just the right touch of warmth. Call Larry @the Palace and ask him how good BAT amplifiers are. His reference system at home uses bi-amped VK-6200's. 👍👍👍 |
Here ya go . Under budget . Put the saved money towards the Neoliths ! Crown XLS2502 Bridged monos . Around $1500 new Number of Channels: 2 Power Class: Class D Watts/Side @ 8 ohms: 440W Watts/Side @ 4 ohms: 775W Watts/Side @ 2 ohms: 1200W Watts Bridged: 2400W @ 4 ohms, 1550W @ 8 ohms Inputs: 2 x XLR, 1 x stereo RCA, 2 x 1/4" Outputs: 2 x speakON, 2 x Binding Posts Cooling System: Efficient Forced-air Fans DSP: Yes Filters: Yes Rack Spaces: 2U Height: 3.5" Depth: |
Since you're not opposed to Class D you may want to check out the latest amps in NAD's Master Series, the M22 V2 which are bridgeable to 900 watt monos and retail new for $2,999 each. https://nadelectronics.com/nad-masters-m22-v2-delivers-increased-power-flexibility/ |
Horns are my next journey :). i am looking into some klipsch palladium p39f :) so don't worry , those are in my bucket list. For now, i want everyone's help with the following: A pair of mono blocks or stereo amps that can be used as monos and that can put out over 900 watts per channel with a used market value of less than 12k dollars. The only one that comes to mind are the bryston 28bsst2 and 28bsst3s. |
@david_ten I am not sure you have read this entire thread, but if you did, you would have known more about whitecamaross and his listening levels. I like my music on the louder side ( as in my name ) as well. I have been around live music much of my life, traveled the N.Y. subway systems for many years, was a singer and sound man in a band, in a choir, attended many live concerts ( amplified and unamplified ), and in the audio business. My hearing is fine btw. I admire whitecamaross for his dedication and patience to do all this, not just for himself, but for others. I am actually surprised he has not shown any interest in a good horn based system, which has been mentioned in this thread previously by another poster. I read all of your posts, and others about your system. Enjoy. Sincerely, MrD |
